True Multiplayer Combat Campaign

[Double Deuce]

What if we had a Combat Campaign using a map of the world (with hexes), where each player took command of a country and bought their own forces from the WinSPWW2 editor. There would be no senior commanders unless players wanted to "Team up" using a single nation (possibly used with the larger nations) such as Russia, German the US or British Commonwealth to divide up the workload.

Each Turn would equal 1 month of game time and that date would be used for determining availability of equipment/units that can be purchased via the Editor.

Each "nation" would get a set # of points to start based on Operational Victory Hexes such as major cities, ports and airbases. Each of these "hexes" would be worth points, so each turn you are awarded points for the ones you owned for purchasing replacements/reinforcements. Here is a breakdown of how the points could be used to "buy" equipment;

City Points - Can be used to purchase anything except those items listed below (anything available due to the date that is).
Airbase Points - Can only be used to purchase aircraft.
Port Points - Can only be used to purchase naval equipment (barges, boats, naval guns). I would also implement a special aircraft carrier unit option. There may be a way to include actual naval battles with another program I have where I would let the AI play the fighting out.Nations without dedicated OOB's in WinSPWW2 would use the Blue, Red or Green OOB's depending on the nation. Not ALL nations could be included of course. ;)

Players would probably need to have the CD version to make use of the extra Pbem slots slots needed (and maybe the tournament file feature).

Another major obstacle though would be setting up secure forums for each Nation or "Allied" groups of nations. :nuts:

[Double Deuce]

South and Central America would not be included (I don't have a map that covers that part). ;)

To make it more manageable I would probably group some nations together (such as those of the British Commonwealth) but I would try to have players create their own alliances to some degree. That way the "minors" and neutrals must be convinced to "stay the course" "with their allies or "stay out of their way". :devious:

[Artur]

Mike do you really believe you have the time and energy for such a HUGE project?

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

Mike do you really believe you have the time and energy for such a HUGE project?I was envisioning a 2015 start date . . . sometime after turn 3 of the NATO v WP campaign. :halo:

[Fokkov]

I was envisioning a 2015 start date . . . sometime after turn 3 of the NATO v WP campaign.

you are no pessimist i see

[Vas FURY]

Lol, you are quite correct!

It would be a great project (almost like a game of Risk), but indeed, the work load would be incredibly huge. Hopefully by that time technological advancements of the game engine (or maybe a new SP release from CAMO guys) could make it more easier to arrange such an idea.

[Double Deuce]

What about a smaller scale map but the same concept using multiple nations each with their own country borders?

Base nations are renamed to whatever the players want? For example the player using the US OOB can rename the "country" whatever he wants to (he just uses the US OOB for equipment purchases).

Special Rule #1: NO set alliances except those that the players make between themselves (and they can keep or break as they want). :devious:

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n136/d22_doubledeuce/Blitzkrieg.png

[Vas FURY]

Yeah!... Very very likely to work nicely. Also, what you could do (Sort of Medieval total war style), is give each nation, say, 2500 points for OOB purchase at the beginning to buy their forces, and then give them 1000 pointsOP per extra territory that the player 'conquers' etc, and in that way each would want to continue to expand, and can buy the army that he wishes to wage war with.

Such a campaign would be nicer in WinSPMBT rather than WW2. Many more varied nations and OOBs to choose from...

[Double Deuce]

Yeah!... Very very likely to work nicely. Also, what you could do (Sort of Medieval total war style), is give each nation, say, 2500 points for OOB purchase at the beginning to buy their forces, and then give them 1000 pointsOP per extra territory that the player 'conquers' etc, and in that way each would want to continue to expand, and can buy the army that he wishes to wage war with. Each nation would get a set # of points to start AND each Victory Hex on the Operational Map (cities, ports and airbases) would be worth points you get for "owning" them. With those points you could purchase replacement/reinforcements at the end of each turn (month). Each nation would get something like below for initial purchase points;

INFANTRY - 2500 points
ARMOR - 500 points
ARTILLERY - 250 points
MISC - 250 points Such a campaign would be nicer in WinSPMBT rather than WW2. Many more varied nations and OOBs to choose from...Might be too unbalanced for WinSPMBT. Some equipment like TI and stuff gives way too much advantage to make balance questionable an open to continued arguments.

[Artur]

Might be too unbalanced for WinSPMBT. Some equipment like TI and stuff gives way too much advantage to make balance questionable an open to continued arguments.

You can solve that by:
-Setting the era (eg 1976 aug)
-Setting the set of countries to choose from

You have to do the same with SPWWII as well since the so called "minors" (man how I hate this label) are not that strong.

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

You can solve that by:
-Setting the era (eg 1976 aug)
-Setting the set of countries to choose from Well that is true but with the NATO v WP Campaign looking to occupy the next 3-5 years of my life I figured something using WW2 equipment was next in line. WinSPMBT would still work well though.

You have to do the same with SPWWII as well since the so called "minors" (man how I hate this label) are not that strong.Hopefully player alliances would be able to cancel out some of those advantages.

I'd rather spell out those "so called minor" countries but then someone would probably complain I spelled Rumania incorrectly. :mad:

[Double Deuce]

Well, in January 1976 there are 81 nations to choose from (eliminating the UN, Red and Green). I figure we would use about 10-12 of them at most.

Would players be allowed to choose their nation (first come, first serve) or have a lottery/random system for determining who gets what kit/OOB to use?

[Vas FURY]

Why not just let players choose their nations, and if they both, for exmple, wish to be USA, then they can both use that countrie's OOB, but one of them will be considered a 'rebel' or something (just like in-game).

I think that even if there are many players picking the same country's OOB for their forces, then it will still allow for many differences within actual army composition, due to the large variety of equipment available and to people's own preferences.

[Double Deuce]

That would work too.

I would like to see a wide array of OOB's used in a game like this. I think it would really add to the campaign and allow players to develop a unique culture and image for their "nation".

[jadpanther]

This sounds like a very interesting game. If you need help setting it up I would be happy to help if I can. I would also interested to play.

Jad

[Double Deuce]

I didn't write down that formula we spoke about on ICQ the other day (the purchase point breakdown). Can you post that here so I can get some input from the others and look into incorporating it into the next Combat Campaign.

[Double Deuce]

I think if people did not feel locked into a "historical" situation (Kursk, Stalingrad, etc) like previous campaigns there will be more players willing to jump in. Especially if they can create their own nation so to speak to fight with but have to draw equipment from a specific national OOB. Even with players selecting the same OOB's, players can customize them more to their personal tastes.

I also think if the terrain is really varied (say cold, heavily wooded, marshy and snowy) players will choose from nations other than the US, German and Russia. I mean, if my nation was situated in an area like that mentioned above that player may prefer taking a more infantry strong OOB like the Finns. I would try to set of the terrain so that players might lean toward choosing different nationalities.

Also, should player alliances be set at the beginning or should I allow players to make their own deals to make o break as they see fit?

[Double Deuce]

I would also prefer opening it up to those who had the CD since we could then use the Tournament slots and play using Full Security Pbem's (just a thought though). Others could apply but that's what I would shoot for. Obviously we would try to set it up to include the most players BUT I think aiming for the ability to use Full Security Pbem is worth striving for.

[Artur]

I didn't write down that formula we spoke about on ICQ the other day (the purchase point breakdown). Can you post that here so I can get some input from the others and look into incorporating it into the next Combat Campaign.


I thought about initial points division. One player would start with 4000 pts, which he could spend with the following limits:

4000 pts
--------
armor 1500 pts max
infantry 4000 pts max
artillery 400 pts max
air 200 pts max
misc 1000 pts max (trucks, barges, etc.)

That means that one can spend allhis points on infantry and can spend no more than 1500 pts on armor. People can build fully motorized armies or mases of infantry, or anything in between which fits their playing style best.

Besides the points division, and choosing a nation to his liking the player has the option of choosing one nation bonus.

Nation bonuses could be the following:

tankhead +500 pts armor limit (4000 pts total remains but armor limit is now 2000 pts) --> choose Germans and open terrain country to use best
bush master pure inf units +1 operational movement (a unit containing several SP inf platoons or companies and having NO vehicles) --> advatage for Finnland like terrain countries
air jockey +300 pts air limit (4000 pts total remains, but air limit is 500 pts) --> pair that up with the americans and see what you get
engine addict truck and air transport cost 50% (during initial purchase and manufacturing trucks and transport planes (and NO halftracks nor other units) cost 50%) --> that will lead to a very mobile army with lesser firepover on transports
shrapnel lover +400 pts artillery limit (4000 pts total remains but artillery limit is 800 pts) --> who loves katyushas? :)

Again, the terrain of the country, player style, or whatever else can affect the bonus choice. Combinations of terrain, nation, bonus, and army structure are really endless and most likely everyone can choose them to fit his personal style best.

Artur.

[Artur]

I also think that in orser to avoid unmanageable complexity, naval aspect should be omitted.

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

Artur, thanks for posting that. I remembered the point breakdown but not the nation bonuses. ;)

The naval aspect would primarily be abstracted. Naval units would act as long range off-board arty with ranges like: Light =1 hex, Med = 2 hexes and so on.

Aircraft carrier would (if used) really be only an offshore airbase to put aircraft within range of targets like off-board artillery/movable airbases.

With naval units one could also conduct amphibious landings in another's rear area to draw forces away from the front. Maybe marines units would automatically have the ability to move on sea hexes (transport as part of there OOB BUT only to move about sea hexes and conduct actually landings)?

The naval stuff is just a thought though.

[Double Deuce]

To bring this part back up.

I was planning to have each Turn equal 1 month of game time and that date would be used for determining availability of equipment/units that can be purchased via the Editor.

If we used WinSPWW2, what date should the clock start? September 1939 or later? Keep in mind that there would mean 12 Operational Turns in a game year so the heavier tanks available in 43/44 would most likely never be involved as they would be over 30+ turns into the campaign.

[Double Deuce]

I'm really thinking there should only be 2 sides in this thing for Observer Controller management reasons. ;)

Players would control different "Nations" but be allied with 1 side or the other. The team could give a name to their "Pact".

This way each player builds their own force independently and they also accumulate points for purchasing based on what VP areas of the map their forces physically occupy.

At start, all players pick their team and then are randomly assigned an area for their home country where they are free to place their allocated capital, towns, ports, airbases, etc on the map. They do this BEFORE they find out who their neighbors are and how close their enemies might be. :devious:

Once they see the terrain and nearby enemy positions, THEN they start building and deploying their forces.

[Artur]

To be honest if you do it 2 pacts vs. each other, this game format will lose it's best flavor IMHO.

Diplomacy behind the curtains would be the main factor, and with this approach it would be totally gone.

I would rather take out some other parts if needed. Or better said you need assistants to moderate this game anyway.

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

To be honest if you do it 2 pacts vs. each other, this game format will lose it's best flavor IMHO.

Diplomacy behind the curtains would be the main factor, and with this approach it would be totally gone.I agree.

I'm just trying to figure out HOW to manage the operational map/screenshots without giving away enemy FOW info. I would have to track a separate map for each nation and have each show only what that particular nation could see. :nervous:

I was planning to use TOAW/ACOW for the operational map to handle the recon/intel part as that game engine has an excellent engine for handling that stuff BUT I think it will only handle side 1 vs side 2.

I really like the "multiplayer" approach by doing it with NO alliances except what the players make themselves BUT that also leads to each having a need for their OWN secure forum area. I could set up each player an area on my Combat Campaigns website though plus a secure forum section to help with this if needed.

[Double Deuce]

Besides the points division, and choosing a nation to his liking the player has the option of choosing one nation bonus.

Nation bonuses could be the following:

tankhead +500 pts armor limit (4000 pts total remains but armor limit is now 2000 pts) --> choose Germans and open terrain country to use best
bush master pure inf units +1 operational movement (a unit containing several SP inf platoons or companies and having NO vehicles) --> advatage for Finnland like terrain countries
air jockey +300 pts air limit (4000 pts total remains, but air limit is 500 pts) --> pair that up with the americans and see what you get
engine addict truck and air transport cost 50% (during initial purchase and manufacturing trucks and transport planes (and NO halftracks nor other units) cost 50%) --> that will lead to a very mobile army with lesser firepover on transports
shrapnel lover +400 pts artillery limit (4000 pts total remains but artillery limit is 800 pts) --> who loves katyushas? :)

Again, the terrain of the country, player style, or whatever else can affect the bonus choice. Combinations of terrain, nation, bonus, and army structure are really endless and most likely everyone can choose them to fit his personal style best.I really like this part. I would support any idea or adjustments to get players to choose countries other than the US, Germany or Russia. I would hate to see ALL players choose only from these nations which could happen. It would really take away the flavor of the game if only a couple nation OOB's were picked from. :cry:

Also, WHAT format would help bring in some new players who have never done this type game format before ? ? ? ?

[Double Deuce]

Should the hexes on the Operational Map represent 2.5km(50x50) or 5km(100x100) WinSP maps?

For WinSPWW2, 5km(100x100) using company size units (no stacking) may be too large. Using larger units (battalion size) would make the 50x50 too small.

For WinSPMBT, 5km(100x100) would probably be right due to the higher number of mechanized/motorized units.

Actually there would be no limit of how BIG a unit could be (echelon designations would only be used for naming not an indication of actual OOB format/size). BUT for this campaign there would be a 1 unit only per hex stacking limit imposed. Not counting any "special" units. :smoke:

What to do? :nervous:

[Double Deuce]

Revisiting this idea. Any comments, input . . . . . volunteers to help out? ;)

I know its not popular but I think MOCAT (formerly COCAT) is the best option for managing the OOB's and movement. The new version has a self-installer and is a lot easier to use.

We would use the forums as backup BUT we could only use the forums if there are team, I cannot have 8-10 secure subforums running here, too much admin headache keeping up with permissions, etc.

TO ADD: Using the formula below with WinSPMBT in the time of June 1976 just how much stuff would this allow a player to purchase;

------------------------------------------------------------------------
4000 Total pts

armor 1500 pts max
infantry 4000 pts max
artillery 400 pts max
air 200 pts max
misc 1000 pts max (trucks, barges, etc.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone want to pick a nation and see what they can build and post back here for review using those guidelines?

[Artur]

Is there any link to download the tool?

Artur.

[Artur]

...

TO ADD: Using the formula below with WinSPMBT in the time of June 1976 just how much stuff would this allow a player to purchase;

------------------------------------------------------------------------
4000 Total pts

armor 1500 pts max
infantry 4000 pts max
artillery 400 pts max
air 200 pts max
misc 1000 pts max (trucks, barges, etc.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone want to pick a nation and see what they can build and post back here for review using those guidelines?

These figures were thought out for WinSPWW2 for WinSPMBT in 76' this may not be enough.

Artur.

[Double Deuce]

Is there any link to download the tool?No, not yet. I'll see if I can get the latest version and post it. It'll need to be modified a little more before we can use it.

We would need a map and I'll also need to replace the units icons. Right now its using the NATO style unit markers (Blue vs Red). The hardest part may be entering all the units equipment lists and their associated data.

[Double Deuce]

These figures were thought out for WinSPWW2 for WinSPMBT in 76' this may not be enough.

Artur.You're right, it wouldn't be with WinSPMBT. I'm only able to purchase about 2.5 Co of Infantry, 1 Tank Co and a very small bit of Artillery.

Guess it really depends on what players want to use, WinSPWW2 or WinSPMBT.

[Double Deuce]

What if the map was a 16x13km island (actually 2 islands linked by a large bridge) with 6 -8 players. Using WinSPWW2. Would that make it too crowded since you could obviously purchase many more units than you could with WinSPMBT? Holding cities/towns gets a player more build points each turn they hold them.

Kicker is there is a home team for the island (maybe using the Finn OOB if using WinSPWW2 or the Switzerland OOB if WinSPMBT) and they start with control of all cities/towns. This means they get stronger the longer they hold out so that forces the others to press the attack or end up too weak to stay in the game when the islanders counterattack.

Am considering using Don Maddox's excellent TacOps Map:

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/downloads//map822c_preview_Ojc_thumb.jpg

Here is a link to a larger copy Island War Map (http://www.combat-campaigns.com/iswar/images/Map822c.gif)

[valobg]

i would participate but im a noob and poor student(dont own a cd). i would defintively favor winspmbt much more possibilities here.

[Double Deuce]

i would participate but im a noob and poor student(dont own a cd). i would defintively favor winspmbt much more possibilities here.Having the CD wouldn't be necessary BUT it does open up the additional Pbem slots and tournament section so I don't have to keep juggling files around in my copy and risk overwriting something important. ;)

[Double Deuce]

To be honest if you do it 2 pacts vs. each other, this game format will lose it's best flavor IMHO.

Diplomacy behind the curtains would be the main factor, and with this approach it would be totally gone.Adding to this possible idea, what if it was a civil war environment using the equipment from one nation (maybe soviet union) where each player is a general vying for control of the island. This allows players to create their own alliances as needed BUT there can only be one "ruler". It also lessens the bookkeeping of using a large number of different OOB's and trying to justify point values between different vehicles, etc. This way every player has the same force pools to choose from but can customize according to their playing styles.

[Double Deuce]

OK, using the 4000 points recommended and using the Soviet OOB, June 1976 here is my "Rebel Command" (I have 2 points left over);

Armour Recce Pl (224 pts)
...x4 BRDM-2
...x4 Scout Team

BMP Rifle Co (1177 pts)
...x10 Mech Section
...x10 BMP-1
...x3 SA-7 SAM

BMP Rifle Co (1177 pts)
...x10 Mech Section
...x10 BMP-1
...x3 SA-7 SAM

Tank Platoon /3 (492 pts)
...x3 T-64A

Tank Platoon /3 (474 pts)
...x3 T-72

SPAA Section (228 pts)
...x2 ZSU-23-4 Shilka

SP Mortar Pl (164 pts)
...x4 MT-LB/120

Road Patrol (31 pts)
...x1 Scout Team
...x1 BTR-40

Road Patrol (31 pts)
...x1 Scout Team
...x1 BTR-40