Message from Larry Bond

[Herman Hum]

Excerpt from Matrix Forum (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1367885):

Chris Carlson and I are the original creators of Harpoon, and Don Gilman and his company AGSI is the licensed holder of the computer rights for Harpoon. Chris and I created Harpoon over twenty-five years ago, and since then have released four editions of the print game, along with many supplements.

Check out the entire message at Matrix Forum (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1367885).

[RobAPol]

I'm not sure I share Larry's view on why Harpoon is so buggy. Now I have never seen the source code, but it seems to me that every tweak that is made to the engine brings in one or two new bugs.

As a software architect there are two possible reasons for this:
i. The entire codebase is procedural and of such complexity that it can't be helped.

ii. The code base utilises OO techniques but is so badly overcoupled that the game is in a continuous maintenance state.

My message to Larry is that it is possible to model complex things such as radar and sonar whilst retaining an architectural simplicity that will allow change to be easily incorparated.

If this was a project that I was associated with I would be ashamed. Maybe I'm a little bitter because I bought into Harpoon3 which is for me less usable and more buggy than the Harpoon2 Admirals edition that I also own. I mean, I can't even go through the scenario list in Harpoon3 without the game taking me into the scenario itself - the upshot of which I can't browse the mission descriptions to see if I want to play it.

To me as an outsider the whole thing is a fiasco. I wish them luck with their military contracts, but I'd advise them to get a decent software architect in, who might - if they are lucky - reduce the systems internal coupling so that it can be fixed properly.

For those that say I don't understand the complexity of radar or sonar modelling think again. I was in the Royal Navy for 15 years as a Sonar and Radar technician, so don't even go there...

[Herman Hum]

I'm not sure I share Larry's view on why Harpoon is so buggy. Now I have never seen the source code, but it seems to me that every tweak that is made to the engine brings in one or two new bugs.

I most heartily concur with this assessment. What is doubly troublesome, IMO, is that some 'tweaks' are for things that do not appear to be causing problems in the first place yet they still managed to contribute the seemingly mandatory "one or two new bugs" with every change, but I'm sure that they thought they had reason to implement the change. :cry:

Oh, well, the 3.8.0 Patch has been planned for quite some time and was slated for released on May 1, 2007. As with all things Harpoon, that has been delayed and should be out soonest, according to the AGSI representative.

It's only been 11 months since ANW was first released, but that is still faster than the last time a patch appeared for Harpoon3. That one came after 17 months and cost us $55 (to "upgrade" to Harpoon ANW). So, anything faster than that is going to be an improvement, no? ;)

[Jeff Gilbert]

This all reinforces that I was correct to with-hold my $55.
Don't get me wrong, I love Harpoon and have been playing since the very early Three-Sixty days and have purchased two copies of v3 (3.6.3) for both my Mac & PC.

3.7 ANW just won't do it for me ... yet. I have high hopes for 3.8 and will keep reading. Now, I know that it is impossible to please "everyone" so I will continue to use my own judgement as to when to jump in.

My continued thanks to all the folk doing the development work on Harpoon 3 and to those of you who make and port over scenarios for us all to enjoy.

[RobAPol]

It's only been 11 months since ANW was first released, but that is still faster than the last time a patch appeared for Harpoon3. That one came after 17 months and cost us $55 (to "upgrade" to Harpoon ANW). So, anything faster than that is going to be an improvement, no? ;)

What you have said there Herman is the crux of the matter. The only difference between H3 and H2 Admirals Edition is that H3 was supposed to have been a 'fixed' H2. But alas it wasn't fixed, so I ended up being conned into buying the same game twice (3 times if you include the fact that I bought H2 twice - both the floppy and CD versions).

If I had known that H3 wouldnt be a fixed H2 I wouldn't have bought it as it brings nothing else new to the table.

The biggest rub though, is that ANW got released and I was 'expected' to buy this as well! At least if I was to have any hope of having a working sim. This would have taken me up to 4 purchases of the same game!

I think the developers should have carried on support for H3 until it was at least as usable as H2, but this hasn't happened. You can't even download any PC based H3 patches anymore, its like the company saying 'sod you - buy ANW instead'.

I find it quite entertaining that on Matrix's website, ANW is also one of the most expensive games that they sell - despite its current state. I won't buy ANW because it is just as buggy as H3 and I have had my trust in the company to support a product completely shattered by the H3 fiasco. As they say 'Once bitten...'

[Herman Hum]

What you have said there Herman is the crux of the matter. The only difference between H3 and H2 Admirals Edition is that H3 was supposed to have been a 'fixed' H2. But alas it wasn't fixed, so I ended up being conned into buying the same game twice (3 times if you include the fact that I bought H2 twice - both the floppy and CD versions).

Would you believe I bought Harpoon2 THREE times? I bought H2, H2 Multi-Media, and H2 Admiral's Edition because I couldn't get any of them to work and kept hoping that the next edition would run properly. I guess that makes me a bigger 'fool' than you! ;)

I certainly can find no fault in your logic and cannot disagree in the least. Your reasoning and view has been echoed on this forum and numerous others. A cynical man might posit that the company intentionally adds a few new minor features in every release so that it can claim to be a 'work in progress' (ad infinitum) thereby justifying the existence of a 'few' bugs as a temporary/necessary evil.

The fact that everyone who purchased Harpoon3 did so with 50 (defect free) dollars and then got saddled with a less than fully functional game is troubling. That this process seems to be repeating itself with ANW is alarming. There is, seemingly, no specific goal for a bug-free ANW. Harpoon2 bugs are still being found and reported during this latest round of testing. I strongly suspect that when/if the next version of Harpoon is released (a project currently known as "The Next Harpoon"), many bugs will still exist in the ANW version and that it will be abandoned so that the company can "focus it's energy and talent" on the latest release.

I would certainly favour a commitment by the company to, "A game with features X, Y, Z will be made fully functional." They could pick any point in time. Just PICK one so that everyone would know what they could expect from the purchase and the company would know what it is fixing instead of constantly looking for new things to add.

I can certainly commiserate with you over Harpoon3 and it's lack of ongoing support. All I wanted was an H3 that actually worked. Heck, I might have re-purchased H3 if it meant getting a fully functional H3! The MP capability and other new features are certainly nice, but, as can be inferred by the dearth of MP reports and by the nature of the game, Harpoon is primarily a solitaire adventure. However, the developers have made their decision and aren't going to reverse it. As a potential customer, you are doing the only thing possible -- voting with your wallet. Sadly, though, you are the third long-standing Harpoon supporter in as many days to state the same opinion.

[RobAPol]

Damn, Damn, Damn!
I know I'm going to regret it but I got too hacked off with scenario selection in H3 that I have just bought the ANW edition. :angry: I should feel elated, but I feel strangely ripped off.
Going to test some of the scenarios out now and maybe try to get involved in some multiplayer gaming. Is there anything I should know before I continue?

RobP

[Herman Hum]

Yes. Always install and use the PlayersDB and you should be happy. http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/harpoon/66241-120-more-scenarios-harpoon-3-players-database.html :laugh:

Congratulations and welcome aboard, shipmate. I'll be back to give you a head-to-head game later. Check out the ANW Server hosted by HarpGamer.
http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/harpoon/46710-h3-multiplayer-server-up-again.html

It has all the PlayersDB scenarios already on it. Dual Core processors usually run better when affinity is set to single core when we play MP. Otherwise, Dig IN! Over 200 PlayersDB scenarios just waiting for you! :smoke:

[VCDH]

Damn, Damn, Damn!
I know I'm going to regret it but I got too hacked off with scenario selection in H3 that I have just bought the ANW edition. :angry: I should feel elated, but I feel strangely ripped off.

Rob, what kind of problems were you having?

Later
D

[RobAPol]

Rob, what kind of problems were you having?

Later
D

Basically i used to click on a scenario to read the description, but H3 would go to loading the scenario straight away, meaning that I couldn't read the descriptions to decide what to play. ANW seems to have solved this problem, so for now I'm a happy bunny.

[VCDH]

Basically i used to click on a scenario to read the description, but H3 would go to loading the scenario straight away, meaning that I couldn't read the descriptions to decide what to play. ANW seems to have solved this problem, so for now I'm a happy bunny.

It's moot since we've solved that issue. But you can bring up your orders and scenario information in the window drop down menu.

I actually prefer that the user does not see orders prior or during side selection. You can look at the orders for the other side and see what their game plan will be. This can be solved by making 2 scens each with only one side playable but that's alot of work. Too much for me.

Later
D

[Herman Hum]

It's moot since we've solved that issue. But you can bring up your orders and scenario information in the window drop down menu.
The Battleset Load window is being confused with actual entry into the game.

The Window drop-down menu is only available once the game has been started. General scenario info can be seen as well as the orders for the player side.

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=19307&stc=1&d=1179433276

The Battleset Load window is the step prior to actual game start whereby a player can view the general scenario description. Individual side orders cannot be seen at that time.

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=19306&stc=1&d=1179433276