Using artillery/mortar spotters

[Okimaw]

Being fairly new to CM one of the things I'm having a bit of difficulty with is the deployment of spotters. In defense it's not so bad as they're mostly stationary and just watch for approaching enemies and plot their course as best you can. Attacking on the other hand is different. In one of my games I have a spotter for 300mm artillery, takes 30 mins to fire on target and it's only a 40 turn game. What would be the most effective use of a unit like that in that situation? Also when spotters of smaller variety are on the attack what are some advised tactics for their best use? I know a lot might depend on terrain, viibilty etc but some general info would be good.

[Lurker]

Being fairly new to CM one of the things I'm having a bit of difficulty with is the deployment of spotters. In defense it's not so bad as they're mostly stationary and just watch for approaching enemies and plot their course as best you can. Attacking on the other hand is different. In one of my games I have a spotter for 300mm artillery, takes 30 mins to fire on target and it's only a 40 turn game. What would be the most effective use of a unit like that in that situation? Also when spotters of smaller variety are on the attack what are some advised tactics for their best use? I know a lot might depend on terrain, viibilty etc but some general info would be good.I think the attacker can do a opening bombardment, so the 300 mm doesn't have to take 30 minutes. Someone who's actually done this can fill you in better.

On D don't forget to use TRPs for your spotters. They don't have to be in LOS and the rounds will fall in no more than 1 minute and be accurate to the TRP. This way you can tuck the spotter way back out of harms way. You can also use local mtrs and guns with TRPs as long as they don't move. The gun needs LOS but will gain accuracy because of the presence of the TRP. The key is prediction and placement. :)

[TacCovert4]

On the attack I would recommend using spotters with either radio capability or lower echelon weapons. For instance, army level guns take longer to call in than division level. Radio helps alot as it allows your spotters to ride along on vehicles, allowing them to start calling in for fire sooner, preferably so that the fire starts about half a turn before your infantry opens up. As they are sometimes available, use TRPs on the offense if you can to target likely redoubts or an area you would like to use as an approach to the target. You can then call down accurate fire upon this location from big guns at the begginning of the battle, possibly causing your enemy early casualties.

[Lurker]

As they are sometimes available, use TRPs on the offense if you can to target likely redoubts or an area you would like to use as an approach to the target. Do you know when TRPs can be used on offense?

[Ratzki]

You can call for the fire mission before you are able to see the target, then as you walk to a spot where you have LOS, you will not be wasting as much time this way, just be sure you are able to have LOS to the target at about 1 minute before the start of the mission to be on the safe side. At about 30 seconds before the fire mission starts you must be able to see the target spot you selected or the fire will be off target. You can make short "Green Line" corrections without adding too much time if needed. You can delay as well by targetting and making "green Line" corrections to add time so the fire mission can land pretty much when you want it to.

[TacCovert4]

Do you know when TRPs can be used on offense?

QBs are set up without them for the attacker, but sometimes a scenario designer will give the attacker several of them. Personally, I think TRPs should always be availible, as arty support is something worked out the night before for the attacking side, and would already have targets not only selected but locked in.

[Lurker]

You can call for the fire mission before you are able to see the target, then as you walk to a spot where you have LOS, you will not be wasting as much time this way, just be sure you are able to have LOS to the target at about 1 minute before the start of the mission to be on the safe side. At about 30 seconds before the fire mission starts you must be able to see the target spot you selected or the fire will be off target. You can make short "Green Line" corrections without adding too much time if needed. You can delay as well by targetting and making "green Line" corrections to add time so the fire mission can land pretty much when you want it to.Isn't there an opening bombardment available to the attacker? I've never used it but I thought I read that somewhere. I think the only issue is it's random, where the AI selects the target. This would completely remove the 30 minute wait in the above case..

[Redwolf]

The preplanned barrage is not random.

Why you can't pre-target in setup and then get fire when you want (quickly, as long as you don't change the location) is bejond me.

[Lurker]

The preplanned barrage is not random.

Why you can't pre-target in setup and then get fire when you want (quickly, as long as you don't change the location) is bejond me.Now I'm confused. :nuts: :hmmm:

The defender can call an opening strike and it is random targeting, yes? Are you saying the attacker cannot do this as well but has to wait for the standard countdown? The last time I played the AI in and A/D as a defender I was hit immediately with a barrage. There didn't appear to be any delay ???

[TacCovert4]

All 1st Turn barrages, be they A, D, or ME forces are considered to be preplanned and expend all ammo on the original target. If you do not have LOS or TRP to the target, the barrage will be untargetted, and results will be hit or miss.

[Redwolf]

Now I'm confused. :nuts: :hmmm:

The defender can call an opening strike and it is random targeting, yes? Are you saying the attacker cannot do this as well but has to wait for the standard countdown? The last time I played the AI in and A/D as a defender I was hit immediately with a barrage. There didn't appear to be any delay ???


You are confused :). I was just replying to the "random" remark. There is nothing random about the preplanned CMBB/CMAK indirect fire.

[Lurker]

I heard different information over the years, so my confusion. I'l have to research it further. I was hoping to have someone else do it for me. :)

[Lurker]

You are confused :). I was just replying to the "random" remark. There is nothing random about the preplanned CMBB/CMAK indirect fire.OK, I just got un-lazy and read the CMBB section on pre-planned strikes and it appears you are right. I thought I read a post somewhere that stated a preplanned bombardment target was selected by the AI, which in my book meant random.
The manual doesn't say whether or not a LOS is required for accuracy. It simply states it is always accurate. It starts on turn one or a subsequent turn is added for every delay press of the Q button.

So it apears the 30 minute wait is unnecessary. Good news for 300 mm modules! :bite:

I'l have to run some tests!

[The Purist]

QBs are set up without them for the attacker, but sometimes a scenario designer will give the attacker several of them. Personally, I think TRPs should always be availible, as arty support is something worked out the night before for the attacking side, and would already have targets not only selected but locked in.

However, in WWII firing by map and only being able to use sound corrections meant that such artillery fire was seldom on target unless very carefully prepared and zeroed in (constant map checks and recalculation of firing formulas).An attacker that advances beyond his initial attack zone and definitely beyond the first couple of kms from the start line should not be given TRPs,...artillery fire while on the advance was something of an art especially once the guns are forced to deploy forwards from their initial firing point.

[The Purist]

So it apears the 30 minute wait is unnecessary. Good news for 300 mm modules!

Just choose your target well.:D 300mm arty is a hell of a thing to waste.

[TacCovert4]

Unless it is being wasted far away from my defense of Dymchurch, then it is being perfectly utilized.

[Redwolf]

You don't need LOS to have preplanned fire be accurate.

[2054172]

You don't need LOS to have preplanned fire be accurate.

I beleivethat to be true.:thumup: :smoke:

[Redwolf]

Sometimes I think I played this game waaaaay too much. Why can I recite all this out of my head, having played about one scenario in the last 2 years? :smoke:

[Lurker]

You don't need LOS to have preplanned fire be accurate.Thanks for clarifying that. Now if I ever get into attacking that may come in handy! :hush:

[BRO Sapper]

Unless it is being wasted far away from my defense of Dymchurch, then it is being perfectly utilized.

No fear there, I'm not a fan of pre-planned barrages, unless I have way too much Arty or have a really good feel for a high payoff target. Even then, it's a pretty big gamble.

Of course if the Purist had seen fit to have the Bismarck off shore and given me around 200 rounds of that with a couple of different observers!

Which brings me to my biggest beef with the arty, the lack of flexibility in using it. In real life, you'd be able to pre plot several barrages with an artillery observer and have him switch from one to the next automatically or on request and have it all start on turn one. But here, if you use preplanned barrages, it's all gone in one shot with no ability to stop it early.

[Mad Russian]

Which brings me to my biggest beef with the arty, the lack of flexibility in using it. In real life, you'd be able to pre plot several barrages with an artillery observer and have him switch from one to the next automatically or on request and have it all start on turn one. But here, if you use preplanned barrages, it's all gone in one shot with no ability to stop it early.

An American WWII FO MIGHT have had that flexibility. No other nations FO would have. The determining factor would have been time in position. You need time to preregister the guns.

Nothing happens automatically in WWII.

I have never understood the shoot it on turn one and use it all mentality of CM.

Good Hunting.

MR

[TacCovert4]

Two things.

Dang, I just assumed that you didn't have anything onboard those arty ships sapper. I guess I'll just have to give you too many things to shoot at.


MR, the shoot on turn one, shoot it all probably comes from preregistering and the days long planning that went into some offensives. IE Goodwood took lots of planning and a huge amount of arty, but it wasn't very flexible.

[BRO Sapper]

Two things.

Dang, I just assumed that you didn't have anything onboard those arty ships sapper. I guess I'll just have to give you too many things to shoot at.



Who said that Purist gave me any shells?:D

[BRO Sapper]

An American WWII FO MIGHT have had that flexibility. No other nations FO would have. The determining factor would have been time in position. You need time to preregister the guns.

Nothing happens automatically in WWII.

I have never understood the shoot it on turn one and use it all mentality of CM.

Good Hunting.

MR

I don't think you quite got what I was talking about. My point is that I should be able to say shoot 24 shells at target a, 24 at target b and then save the rest for an on call target.

That would be quite possible in an attack or assault, you'd be able to plan that out ahead of time.

In a defense or ME, you probably shouldn't be allowed to do any preplanned barrages.

I do agree that there is no good reason for the fire it all. I think it had to have been a play balance issue, they wanted to penalize you for the advantage you accrued by having an instantaneous barrage to start it all off with.

BRO Sapper

[The Purist]

An American WWII FO MIGHT have had that flexibility. No other nations FO would have. The determining factor would have been time in position. You need time to preregister the guns.


Actually, the British developed a procedure where they used more senior officers (majors, iirc) as observers who had authority to call in guns from their own regiment all the way up to corps and army batteries. In less than 6-7 minutes this one officer could access 100 guns or more and have them all fire on the same target. It was a system copied by the US Army but not quite as effectively as they continued to use lower ranked officers with less authority.

By late in the war, allied artillery was frightenly nimble and quick to bring in massive artillery barrages in quite tight areas and in very short spaces of time. It was something the Germans and Russians never were able to copy.

[Neilm85uk]

I don't think you quite got what I was talking about. My point is that I should be able to say shoot 24 shells at target a, 24 at target b and then save the rest for an on call target.

That would be quite possible in an attack or assault, you'd be able to plan that out ahead of time.

BRO Sapper

The lack of rolling barrages is really disappointing. The ability to have the infantry right in on top of the defender as the barrage moves through would improve the attacking options enormously. You can sort of do it using green line correction but not if it's preplanned.

[Iron Mike USMC]

The lack of rolling barrages is really disappointing. The ability to have the infantry right in on top of the defender as the barrage moves through would improve the attacking options enormously. You can sort of do it using green line correction but not if it's preplanned.

I have yet to see a game where the infantry is ready to advance behind a rolling barrage from the outset.

As I see it, unless you have a fair number of FOs, and decent LOS, you would need to fire dispersed, which could be suppressive enough, but would require your advancing infantry to stay some distance behind.

Green line correction could work, but the higher up the OB arty is, the longer the adjustment time.

Perhaps a combination of suppressive fire and smoke could achieve the same thing?

[Robus]

"Which brings me to my biggest beef with the arty, the lack of flexibility in using it. In real life, you'd be able to pre plot several barrages with an artillery observer and have him switch from one to the next automatically or on request and have it all start on turn one. But here, if you use preplanned barrages, it's all gone in one shot with no ability to stop it early."

From what I've seen, the barrages of the really heavy stuff are hit-or-miss. Time on target is too long to bother with spotters, so you just have to pre-target based on your plan of attack and hope for the best. Seems realistic to me. Big artillery was a blunt instument. Kind of a "shock and awe" weapon, and we've seen how effective those have proved in the real world, even with 2000s technology let alone 1940s.

For the lower level artilley, German doctrine was that forward observers shoud ride with the first wave of armor, and improvise fire plans in consultation with company captains based on direct observation of the spotting rounds. They lost a lot of forward observers that way. So be it. That's also the most fun way to use these assets in CM.

[Poor Old Spike]

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[Lurker]

Good job. Thanks for the effort!

[2054172]

Great info.:smoke:

[Poor Old Spike]

Below -
And remember TRP's work up to 20 metres from them, you don't have to target the actual icon..

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/trp-arty.jpg


http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/trp-df.jpg

[Ratzki]

Thanks POS, I often wondered how far targetting from the TRP symbol still had it's bonus.

[2054172]

I like the info ...how long does it take to aquire the information by testing. I have hardly enough timeduring the day to return tuns let alone play test. :smoke:

[The Hooded One]

Below -
And remember TRP's work up to 20 metres from them, you don't have to target the actual icon..


I didn't know that! :shy: Thanks for the info...:clap: