View Full Version : Unit Start Locations
Double Deuce
29 Mar 04, 13:33
I need you to begin discussing where you want to place your units to start the Campaign and you can do it here. Basically I will need a list that will tell me what Zone each unit will start in. Units can start anywhere in urban areas and the airfield. There are no stacking limits except that you have to have at least 1 unit in each urban/airfield Zone. You can also initiate discussion of any overall planning.
What forces you have are;
1st Peacekeeper Infantry Company
...x13 Peacekeepers
...x2 Fiat/OTO 661461
...x1 M60 Mine Plough
2nd Peacekeeper Infantry Company
...x13 Peacekeepers
...x2 Fiat/OTO 661461
...x1 M60 Mine Plough
3rd Peacekeeper Infantry Company
...x13 Peacekeepers
...x2 Fiat/OTO 661461
...x1 M60 Mine Plough
4th Peacekeeper Infantry Company
...x13 Peacekeepers
...x2 Fiat/OTO 661461
...x1 M60 Mine Plough
1st Ukraine Light APC Company
...x10 Mech Section
...x10 BTR-70A(+)
...Infantry ATGM Platoon
......x2 Spigot Team
......x1 BTR-70A
1st US Marine Rifle Company
...x10 Rifle Squad
...x2 Scout Tm
...x2 Sniper
...x3 Light Infantry Squad
...x1 60mm Mortar Section
...x1 M240 MMG Section
...x1 US Infantry ATGM Platoon
......x3 Dragon Team
1st UK Mech Infantry Platoon (+)
...x4 Rifle Section
...x4 Warrior
...x2 Pioneer Section
...x2 Warrior
I have thought about some overall strategy (can't help myself :devious: ) but I need to know that cam we freely move in the first 1 or 2 turns if the sides decide not to hurt UN yet.
1. Can UN cross rural areas peacefully before it goes to war with any of the sides? (None of the sides attacked any towns).
2.Do we really not know anything about who controls which area?
3. Do we ave any air support or recon assets?
Double Deuce
29 Mar 04, 15:02
1. Can UN cross rural areas peacefully before it goes to war with any of the sides? (None of the sides attacked any towns).
Yes, but they must stick to only zones that include roads. They cannot go out into the countryside or have orders targeting one side or the other. They are to only provide for their self-defense or to protect the civilan populace.
2.Do we really not know anything about who controls which area?
No, information is limited at the start because events happedned so fast and no one knows who will ally with what side. The 1st turn will be very confused for everyone and should see some hard fighting, at least between Pro-Government and Rebel forces.
3. Do we ave any air support or recon assets?
Yes, the UN team has 2 Mirage F1C's.
Gentlemen,
Here I post my proposal for strategy and initioal deployment. Of course this has to be reviewed and fine tuned or if somebody has a better plan then put aside. Look forward to your comments.
Strategy proposal for the UN in the "Island Civil War" Combat campaign.
1. The mission.
The goal for the UN in this campaign is to maintain control over the urban areas and the airfield.
2. The situation
A civil war has begun. We do not know who controls which area. All the resource areas in the campaign are in UN's hands, but the UN does not have adequate forces to defend them.On the other hand the UN can be a ballance factor between the warring sides. The airport is an important resource. The warring side which controls it will have noticable advantage over the others using the helicopters. The capital is also one of the best resources in the
game.
3. The forces
UN
4 peacekeeper companies
1 marine company
1 mech company
1 mech platoon
2 Mirage planes
Govt and Rebels have each:
10 inf companies
1 armor co (-)
1 mech platoon
3. The strategy
The side that controls the most resources will probably win. Because of that our cities are under serious threat.
What we can do is:
a. Somehow retaliate the warring side that FIRST attcks a UN controlled place.
That can be done by bringing more troops to the attacked area from the towns reachable by the opposite side. Those cities with reduced garrisons will be more endangered, so one general may think twice if it will be worth attacking one city if the enemy will get a good chance to take 2 cities.
b. Be a ballance factor, if one side gets advantage make maneuvers to affect the situation to favor more the other side. We must not behave passively. We can have a good mobile force which can be moved from one area to another.We have to put the tanks and ACs of all the units into one or two mobile groups.
c. We have to concentrate our troops in key areas. If we spread oursenves we will be "defeated in detail", one by one. We may after the first one or 2 rounds have cities defended by one inf platoon and key cities defended by several companies. This way we may spare most of our troops from destruction. If a city will be attacked which is guarded by weak forces then we will try to recapture it after a few turns when the two warring sides will be worn down.
Some words about the areas controlled by the warring sides. The more mixed these territories are, the better for the UN. If a city is in a one side controlled block it is more likely that it will be attacked by the side that rules the area because there is no fear thet the city be re-captured by the opposite side.An attack on UN will also be less likely if the warring sides have to watch their back for the opponent side.
d.The capital and the airport has to be guarded with elite troops because of their high resource value.Keep in mind that the airport is in open terrain.
4. Initial Deployment
We have to put complete units in one city.
AA-1 marine Co (key area together with the airport)
CC-1 peacekeeper co + the brit mech platoon
T- 1 peacekeeper co
G- 1 mech Ukrainian Company (key area because of the crossroads and the geographical location)
J- 1 peacekeeper co
A- 1 peacekeeper co
5. First moves
-The vechicles and 2 platoons pf peacekeeper companies move from
J -> G and A -> G and T->AA (After arriving to AA the tank and vechicles go to CC)
Vechicles move separately from the inf because they can move faster. -> of course they may go together but then it will take 3 turns to achieve the desired layout.
This way we will get a layout
AA-1 marine Co + 1 peacekeeper co (-) (With 2 platoons and no vechicles)
CC-1 peacekeeper co + the brit mech platoon + 2 M60 and 4 fiats
T- 1 peacekeeper platoon
G- 1 mech Ukrainian Company 2 peacekeeper co (-)(With 2 platoons and no vechicles) + 2 M60 and 4 fiats
J- 1 peacekeeper platoon
A- 1 peacekeeper platoon
The two mobile groups will be
-the brit mech platoon + 2 M60 and 4 fiats at CC
-mech Ukrainian Company + 2 M60 and 4 fiats at G
they can be moved where the greatest trouble is.
The towns AA and G plus the Airport will be best defended and less likely taken by any of the sides.
This layout can be achieved after 2-3 turns.
6. Risks
The first 3 turns will be the most risky because we are spread thin and if this strategy will be accepted,we will have troops on the move and being vulnerable.Again we must retaliate the first side which attacks us.
If we stay still in the deployed areas, we will have an easier life for the first 2 turns but on the long run our possibilities will be more and more limited.
It depends on what are we willing to risk. Extremely risky maneuvers a the beginning, or isolation and passive role on the long run?
Look forward to your comments, Artur.
First of all, I Like the idea of using infantry to defend key sectors and move out with mobile forces, but we have to bear in mind that the enemy is quite superior in terms of armor, so a good anti-tank environment is crucial for us.
I think the idea of spreading mobile forces as a screening element is a good idea if we manage to keep the forces operational.
I think for starters the air forces should be used as a recon element and later on as a kind of trump card in large engagements.
For the rest, err, where was the operational map again?
I couldn't find it anymore...
Pannonicus
30 Mar 04, 08:30
Good afternoon everyone,
Generally speking, I agree with Artur. We should rely on speed and mass to achieve a local superiority of forces against any side. I think the most we can face in any engagement is a reinforced inf battallion (3 coys of inf. + support company with heavy weapons, maybe some armor.)
Because of armor, I think it is crucial to have ATGMs with every mobile formations we field. M60s will also be needed, to protect from mines. British engineers are also needed to make fast demining possible, so whenever me move out of towns, we will need these elements.
Aircraft will play recon first, then I think the primary role should be as an extra anti-armor asset. (What kind of armament do those Mirages carry?)
So first of all, deployement.
Our primary objective should be keeping the Capital (AA) and the Airport (CC). They form a short front, provided that BB is pacified (that is our backyard, so to speak). As a diplomatic gesture, we should declare these three places as protected by us at any cost. If there is any Reb/Govt. elements in BB, we will grant them immune movement out of our area. This should dissuade them from attacking us.
Our secondary objective is holding on G town. This is not only a vital communications joint of the island, but if we deploy forces strong enough there, we are able to threarten cities A and J simultaneously, plus we can control the bridge connecting the two parts of the island at N. T Town is not that far away either. By threatening so many important objectives, we can pervent any side massing too many assests at one place - we can always let the other side taking the other towns - or push them out from those places.
Deployment: I propose to keep marines in AA/CC sectors, placing machinguns and sniper some ATGMs to CC, while putting mortars and snipers with 2 ATGMs to the city. Airfield is open place, MGs shoud work well there. (Those SP-AAs will give us the necessary light AT capability, while ATGM with aircraft will take care of any armor elements.) In the city there are many blind spots for which mortars are good. Snipers are also effective. ATGMs will keep main avenues of approach clean of armor, while Marines will ambush them close-in if they dare to wander to smaller roads. One peacekeepers Co should be there too, in case shifting of Marines is required to AA or CC.
Town G should garrison the Ukr. mech.inf., togther with the Britons. If we add to them 1-2 M60, they are able to defeat anything on the island. I dunno if that is possible, but I would rather reorganize it a bit, mingling the Brits on platoon level with Ukr. troops. A new platoon should look like 1Ukr. mech. inf. plat, + 1 Warrior +1 ATGM team. This formation (possibly reinforced with M60s, engineers, CAS, or Fiats for recon) could deal with anything that shows up, having integrated AT capability (Rarden cannon + ATGM).
The rest of the forces should be in towns A,J, and T. Peacekeepers should be only for observation, and pulled back (or reinforced, if time permits) if attacked by anything heavier than 2-3 platoons. For this they should have Fiats to retreat quickly if needed.
As far as the diplomatic level, we should issue a statement, that we keep neutral until attacked. We only want to hold cities, and want safe passage on the routes, regardless of who controls them. If they allow this to us, then we will keep out of their conflict.
Well, this is for now. Anyone having thoughts of what was said?
Best regards,
Cpt. Tóth
1. Unfortunately there is a campaign rule, that we must deploy at least one FULL unit in EACH city :(. Too bad for us, but that is the rule. -see rules
2. Another rule is that we cannot allow any warring side to pass through UN controlled areas. -I was informed by DD about it.
3. However when the campaign begins we can move PORTIONS of units from one area to another. -see rules
Pannonicus, please revise your plan according to these rules...
I see that Pannonicus and me agree on the following:
1. Area AA, CC and G are the key areas, Area A, J T will be only under observation with one Peacekeeper platoon.
2. I would also put marines at AA and the Ukrainians at G.
Putting the britons at G is interesting. It has the advantage of massing all mech units together, but then we have the open airfield with less mech support. I will test how the Warriors do against T45s and if they are good I suggest to keep the Brits at the airport. The airport has to be defended well because those helos can be real *****es if captured :crosseye:
We have to think about it...
Does anybody else, Hub and Mr Clark have any other overall plans?
Let us put together what we have...
Regards, Artur.
First of all, I Like the idea of using infantry to defend key sectors and move out with mobile forces, but we have to bear in mind that the enemy is quite superior in terms of armor, so a good anti-tank environment is crucial for us.
I think the idea of spreading mobile forces as a screening element is a good idea if we manage to keep the forces operational.
I think for starters the air forces should be used as a recon element and later on as a kind of trump card in large engagements.
Agreed on everything. Our mobile force can be the Mech units and the M60s.That is why I proposed to make one or two mobile groups.
I thought about using the air assets the same way.
Well, as I really do not find an overall map anymore (link please!!! :cry: ) i can't comment any more apart from that i think that defending the airport is of course very important.
regards,
Felix aka mr_clark
http://www.combat-campaigns.com/ccclub/SPMBT.jpg
Come on Hub! You did very well in our training battle. But no rush take your time I hope you will have more time after a while. An I will vote that you will get good units. :)
Pannonicus
30 Mar 04, 16:40
Well, thinking through again, what do you think of this:
Looking at the details, I think that even Artur's first layout is too thin. Town G is too far away, could be easily cut from our main objective, AA and CC. Therefore we might think of the following.
Marines-AA
Ukrainians-CC
Brits+Peacekeepers-T
Peacekeepers-A,G,J
This way we would have a very solid base, with the necessary AT capability to defeat anything, plus a firm grip of the vital CC. When fighting breaks out, we leave towns A and J, and possibly G as well. If attacked seriously, they are undefendeable. (My problem with G is, that altough it is important, it can be attacked from any direction, and 3 roads make very swift convergeance of any army on it. One mech company cannot hold it for long, supply route from AA can be easily cut.)
So, when the fan is hit ;) , forces from A and J can be pulled back to G to form a stronger garrison there. If it can hold on, very well, we have a bridgehead in the North. If not, mobile elements from AA,CC and T can keep the road of retreat safe, and if everything collapses (like Govt and Reb allies to push us out first, not likely, but can happen!)we can retreat to AA/CC (even leaving T.)
Conversely, still holding G, we have a good assembly point for our mech forces, to reclaim A and J when possible.
Looking at the resources, it we solidly keep AA,CC and T we are still as strong on supply as any other party. If we let them A and J, that might be enough, they have some supply, maybe would not want more - especially since we are beefed up on the remainig ones. (Oberver platoons are not very well - they are not engough, they just invite attack.) Retaliation might not work at the beginning, only when they are depleted - if we start fighting now, we can find ourselves in a war of attrition we cannot afford. If we behave very aggressively, we risk of being attacked by both sides, everywhere. If we can wait, and preserve our forces and our supplies, we might become the strongest element on the island.
It should be nice if some other commanders present their ideas as well. Or should be switch to Hungarian with Artur, and present you the final solution only? :D
2 technical questions to DD:
1. Can we mix forces on platoon level, like I advised in my previous post? (Ukr.plat+Warrior+ATGM)
2. In Peacekeeper coy, how 13 peacekeepers are laid out? Are they represented by a squad, or individual marksman-like units, or what?
1. I agree the we should solidly keep AA and CC. I would also put the marines in AA.
2. I have problems with Ukrainians in CC because thode BTRs have no AT capability. They are great inf chewers but any AT capable force can destroy them.
3. I would defend CC with 1 peacekeeper co and one company in plus. The additional company may be another peacekeeper company, or the britons or the ukrainians. I made tests, the M60s are absolutely superior aganst the T54As. The warriors are no good against the T54s but are extremely good against any other more lightly armoured vechicles and inf. Even at long range!!!
4.Pannonicus is right about the disadvantage of area G because it can be attacked from every direction.
BUT
a.Keep in mind that a town is less valuable for a warring side if it can be less defended as well.If it is contested by enemy probes all the time it will not produce cash!!! -see the rules.
b.All troops in the north can be gathered at G the fastest. We have to use the chaos of the first 2 turns to get our long-run deployment.
5. I agreee thet if we hold AA and CC and one more town we control resources worth 400 points of the total resources that are worth 700 points.
6. Howecver I still suggest to hold AA, CC, and G for the reasons written above.
7. We have 7 units and 6 areas. The one unit plus should go to AA or CC.(A peacekeeper unit deployed in AA can send its tanks and ACs to CC immediately in the first turn)
8.I give another deployment suggestion.
AA - Marines and one peacekeeper co (tank ans ACs move to CC in the 1st turn + maybe one inf plt. + the marine ATGMs carried by Fiats.)
CC - 1 peace keeper co. (This way the airport will have the 2 M60s and the ATGMs)
T - the britons (They leave the inf platoon at T and move the vechicles and engineers to AA and arrive in 2 turns)
G 1 peacekeeper co
J the Ukrainians. (one platoon without the vechicles remains, and the rest goes to G ASAP. They arrive in one turn)
A peacekeeper (one platoon remains, the rest goes to G. Tanks and vechicles arrive in 2 turns inf arrives in 3 turns )
This deployment is optimized for 2 things.
a. the defence of the airport
b. to achieve the desired layout the fastest.
The previous deployment was optimizet to get the best troops to the best places- a bit slower.
9. (Added after re-reading.) The roles of the Ukrainians and Brits may be changed. This way we can get a layout almost similar to what Pannonicus suggested.
So gents, what do you think about that?
Artur.
One more thing. If everything collapses then the northern forces retreat to G and then everybody to AA and CC. Very similar to Pannonicus' suggestion. But until then G has to be held :devious:
Artur.
Pannonicus
30 Mar 04, 18:42
Artur (and everyone),
I would contest a few points. (While seeing we edging closer and closer to each others' opinions.) BTRs are not AT weapons, right. But the coy has ATGMs, and CC also holds 2 Hinds!!! They should be able to kill a whole company of tanks, if used well. OPFOR has no AA assets yet, so choppers are free to operate. Mirages and Mig-17 can also be used, they are good killing (or at least immobilizing) tanks. Tanks, I hope, would be dispersed first, so any intelligent commander would mass them before attacking. This takes a few turns.
In my layout, Britons in T would need that M60 more badly. (If things are serious, they can get choppers, Mirages, or Migs. Warriors are also capable, since they have thermal imaging, so they can hide behind smoke, and keep shooting T-54s. Sooner or later, they immobilize them, or even kill at closer ranges (Warrior still not seen!) Against Iraq, I killed T-62s on close range! Using night vision, at night they can flank T-54s as well, and side hits are deadly. We just have to wait until night, then counterattack!
The thinking about G is proper. If they think it is less valuable, the easier to us to keep it. So let's try to keep it, pulling together A,G,J garrisons. If still not works, we can still retreat like I suggested before. I still suggest to evacuate towns A and J initially. This way we give something to the warring parties to fight for (koncot lökünk nekik ;) ), and we have almost a normal strenght mech. company in G, reinforced with 3 M60s (which is a WP tank platoon :) )
So, my proposal is the same as before, with movement of troops in the first turns: A>G, J>G, AA/CC reinforces each other, however it is necessary (keep in mind the 2Hinds, 2Frescos, 2Mirages, and 3Shilkas at the airport!) Depending on the situation, T might get some reinforcement (probably the 2Hinds, if threatemed by armor, this case Marine ATGMs can beef up the airfield, if that is threatened simultaneously by armor), or if things calm there, but hot up North, send up some Warriors to reinforce G, or provide safe retreat to them.
As long as we hold the airport, we have those 4fixed wing, and 2 rotary aircrafts, we have highly mobile AT capability anywhere. Not to mention, Hinds can carry ATGM teams! (DD, is that possible, long-range deployement by chopper?)
Regards,
Cpt. Tóth
Gentlemen,
1. If I know the rules right we cannot use any equipment nor buying troops from points earned after the cities. Unfortunately.
We cannot take into accont the stockpiled vechicles and Migs and Hinds :cry: .
2. Pannonicus may be right about the Warriors.
3. However I still suggest to keep G and leave T. And put the extra company at AA and/or CC. I also suggest the fleeing units to be the mech units because they cam move 2 areas instead of one.
I repeat my closest deployment proposal to Pannonicus' proposal.
:devious:
AA - Marines and one peacekeeper co (tank ans ACs move to CC in the 1st turn + maybe one inf plt. + the marine ATGMs carried by Fiats.)
CC - 1 peace keeper co. (This way the airport will have the 2 M60s and the ATGMs)
T the Ukrainians. (one platoon without the vechicles remains, and the rest goes to AA ASAP. They arrive in two turns)
G 1 peacekeeper co
J - the britons (They leave the inf platoon at T and move the vechicles and engineers to G and arrive in one turn)
A 1 peacekeeper co (one platoon remains, the rest goes to G. Tanks and vechicles arrive in 2 turns inf arrives in 3 turns )
(H? de jól elbeszélgetünk, nem ??? :) )
Artur.
Pannonicus
30 Mar 04, 19:52
I do not agree of leaving mech. inf. platoons behind w/out APCs. They are essentially trapped there, and APCs/IFVs are very vulnerable w/out them. (They are like light tanks then, which concept was proved wrong in WWII.)
So I still hold my proposal I gave in my last post. T is a nice, easily defendeable place, from two direction swamps, then from another the sea. This leaves narrow fronts to defend. Also, it is outside the main artery of the island, AA-G Hwy.
Maybe some change we can make is to switch Marines to CC, if we lose it, we can start packing our luggage, any decent commander will take us apart with 2 Mi-24 helos. Marines have better AT capability, and they are tougher guys for this kind of fighting. Ukrainians could play "hit and run" in the town with their APC, moving quickly, mounting flank attacks, etc.
Few other questions to DD:
What about the assets at the airport? What can we do with them? Generally speking, can we destroy eqipment before we leave? (Sure as hell I would blow up choppers and Migs if I had to leave the airport, if I cannot use them anyway.)
Similar to this, is it possible to destroy abandoned eqipment in a battle?
Would it be possible to move our troops on the sea? (Like a UN cargo ship?)
Cpt. Tóth
(Jól eldumálunk itt, nem? Mi lenne, ha az ukránok helyett egy magyar századot kérnénk, BTR-80A-kkal? :) :) :) )
T is more advantageous tactically, G is more advantageous strategically. I would choose the strategic advantage.
Leaving an ukrainian platoon is not so dire as the whole unit can move with 7 inf squads and 11 BTRs. Does not matter so much. The britons are a different story, but they have to move through one area with 6 warriors and 2 engineers. A bit more risky but it is done in the 1st turn.
Actually Pannonicus asked in Hungarian if we could use a Hungarian BTR80 company instead of the Ukrainians. I would suppoert him with that idea :-D. DD, and gents what do you think??? :devil: :devil: :devil:
I think in how far we defend T depends on enemy presence in this area. If large enemy forces are in the area we need to defend it better then if not.
Generally I go with Artur that G is strategically seen more important and that I would rather keep it then T --> the enemy has to move some troops even if they control T, so the position of G is more crucial.
I think that we should not use too large forces to control J and A, maybe a mobile force (Ukraine BTR company) might be suitable to be deployed in both regions (similar to what Pannonicus suggested) as they might hold the ground against a small enemy formation and are fast enough to retreat to G if necessary, or might even support each other later on in flanking attacks or so.
Of course I am willing to compromise here :D and I am also quite content with what has been said before.
Ohh, and I have no problem if we use a Hungarian-BTR company instead if they are not inferior (AT-Weapons and stuff) to the Ukrainians.
regards;
Pannonicus
31 Mar 04, 11:42
Hungarian troops would have BTR-80A if pictured correctly, which has 30 mm 2A42 cannon instead of 14.5mm machinegun. Otherwise, a little inferior, since they do not have grenade launchers (neither on the APC nor the inf.sq.), and only have RPG-7 instead of RPG-16D. If they come with BTR-80A, I think we would be better off (similar anti-armor capablity like Warriors!), if normal BTR-80, then let's keep Ukrainians.
Actually, current Hungarian doctrine calls for only one BTR-80A in each platoon to give additional punch, but I think it is not reflected (yet) in standard SPMBT OOB - however, on peacekeeping missions today BTR-80A used almost exclusively instead of BTR-80. Of course, Hungarian company with BMP-1 would be quite a different thing, but that would be too much, I believe.
The idea was just a joke anyway, I am happy with Ukrainians. We should not change rules while we are in the game.
Double Deuce
31 Mar 04, 21:38
Few other questions to DD:
What about the assets at the airport? What can we do with them? Generally speking, can we destroy eqipment before we leave? (Sure as hell I would blow up choppers and Migs if I had to leave the airport, if I cannot use them anyway.)
Similar to this, is it possible to destroy abandoned eqipment in a battle?
No, this equipment cannot be destroyed. At some point the UN Team may be given additional assets.
Would it be possible to move our troops on the sea? (Like a UN cargo ship?)This will not be allowed in this version.
Units can start anywhere in urban areas and the airfield. There are no stacking limits except that you have to have at least 1 unit in each urban/airfield Zone.
DD, does it have to be a COMOLETE unit or a platoon? (A unit-> which is marked in Bold by you in the first post)
Artur.
Double Deuce
02 Apr 04, 13:16
DD, does it have to be a COMOLETE unit or a platoon? (A unit-> which is marked in Bold by you in the first post)
The ones marked in BOLD in the first post must start complete/in tact. The Red and Green Forces are restricted the same way.
The ones marked in BOLD in the first post must start complete/in tact. The Red and Green Forces are restricted the same way.
I knew it ... :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
DD, can we make an exception ad at least mix some units between AA and CC...???...
Double Deuce
03 Apr 04, 10:44
Please post the finalized start locations for your teams units in the designated thread of the Orders Subforum. This needs to be done by midnight Sunday April 4th.
Please post the finalized start locations for your teams units in the designated thread of the Orders Subforum. This needs to be done by midnight Sunday April 4th.
Well, regarding this I present my opinion for your guys now to make something out of it as I am really out of time today.
I think we should keep a strong point in G and for ambushing passers-by etc.
Furthermore I believe that we should use most forces too offer strong resistance in the areas near the cities where the enemy is, so fast moving troops (the mech companies) are essential to stop large scale attacks on our (inferior?) positions.
Once the fighting starts we should bear in mind that a very effective tactic might prove to be the one of ambushing small enemy columns.
regards
Pannonicus
05 Apr 04, 11:07
Gentlemen,
I posted an unofficial deployement plan on the official list.
We agreed with Artur on most of it, what he thinks differently is that 2 British sqads should be left in J to screen and to gather information. I think we should pull out the whole British contingent, leaving unsupported infantry behind is not a good idea in my opinion. So we shoud decide on it.
In the first turn, we pull out from T and A as well, they (togehter with forces from J) will reinforce G. T might reinforce AA/CC as well, it would depend on the situation.
Platoons could be left behind, for several reasons:
1. They are reassuring to the civilan population, their benevolence can be useful when gathering data.
2. They can patrol neighbouring zones, providing information as well.
3. Artur says, that his experience shows, that in a case of major attack, they can slip out. (If slipping away is not easy, I recommend moving out the whole coy, since they are a bigger force when moving this way. I think we should prepare for attacks on the towns from the very beginning. In the open forums, I have the gut feeling that everyone would be trying to get towns and resupply first. So we might get a coordinated attack from both party.) If lose them, it is still less than a full Pck coy.
Combining mobile elements in AA, CC, G, we have a better chance to survive attacks.
Air cover should be on stand-by to support convoys heading out from towns first, then they should switch to reconnaissance. Getting information can be a very valuable thing when we start doing business with either side.
Well, I WANT TO HEAR A DETAILED OPINION from every one of you, and also your vote on the issues I mentioned which are not decided yet. I also would like to know if you want me to be force commander or not.
Regards,
Cpt. Tóth
O.K. Comrade General.
I generally agree too all your unit positions. But I would station the Ukrainians more central then CC if possible. I think position this company in X or S might prove better as they can reach nearly all hotspots (if in X: T, AA, CC; if in S: AA, T, G) in one operational turn. If this is proposal is not acceptable I'd accept the one portrayed yet.
I think reconaisance is crucial so we should leave the use of air support to the situation --> if we have acceptable info on the enemy as support, else primary for recon.
I am confident that we reach a consensus, comrades.
best regards;
Felix
1. I would suggest to move from T to AA/CC. The capital and the airport is our most precious resource. We can do that by moving to S and then to AA in the 2nd turn. In G we will have 3 Peacekeeper companies + the Brits that is more than enough.
2. I would sufgeest to leave a platoon or atleast 2 squads in every city. The details are already described in Pannonicus' post. I will ask DD about some details about evacuating fom a battle/area.
3.I would keep the Ukrainians in CC at the beginning. There is open terrain and they are good infantry chewers from distance + they have ATGMs+we have to deploy them in a city at start+ we have to stack units so they will be stronger and less likely destroyed by the warring sides. In the first turn we need to concentrate our troops. Then we can move out if needed.With more then one company. But first let the warring sides fight a war of attirition against each other. I would be very happy if all our maneuvering troops reach their destination towns in safety.
4. I made some tests. The M60s are extremely good against T54As, We have to do everything to keep them alive. We need 2 of them in G and 2 in AA/CC.
The Mirages with rockets are also very good against tanks.
Questions for DD.
1. If we move an ATGM platoon from AA to CC will it be involved in the battles in turn 1? (It arrives as a reinforcement in turn 3 or 4)
2. Can units flee the battle by moving to the map edge and continue the Op turn in the neighbouring area in the next operational turn?
3. Do I assume right that we can have Mirage with rockets???
I very much hope that yes...
4.Any reinforcements on the horizont?
Pannonicus
05 Apr 04, 18:52
I have one thing to suggest, DD:
It would be fairer at the beginning if Rebels and Govt. troops would be dispersed like we do. For example, they have to put units in at least 5 rural zones or so. Thinking about an abruptly starting civil war, I think that neither side should have task forces fully assembled and ready to strike. They should need some time to organize themselves before being able to make a useful war effort.
Also, there is no point letting a force of a regiment (10 coys + support) overruning 1-2 coys somewhere on the map.
Maybe it is late now, but I think it should be considered in later campaigns.
As far as the deployement I suggested, I think it is basically official now, isn't it?
Regards,
Cpt. Tóth
Well, you have my support ;).
Pannonicus
05 Apr 04, 19:17
I generally agree too all your unit positions. But I would station the Ukrainians more central then CC if possible. I think position this company in X or S might prove better as they can reach nearly all hotspots (if in X: T, AA, CC; if in S: AA, T, G) in one operational turn. If this is proposal is not acceptable I'd accept the one portrayed yet.
I think reconaisance is crucial so we should leave the use of air support to the situation --> if we have acceptable info on the enemy as support, else primary for recon.
According to the rules, we can only deploy in cities. So rural areas are ruled out as a beginning. Airport is crucial, we should keep it. Two coys are the most we can position there (and one of them is our "elite" coy, with good anti-personnel tools).
Yes, recon is important. I plan to use it as our "money" to negotiate with both sides. If they behave nicely, they could get info on the other party. (Which should not be entirely correct, of course.) :D ;) :D
Artur, thank you for your support and planning input all along!!! :)
Regards,
Cpt. Tóth
Gentlemen,
I have read through your deployment thinking and at the request of Lt. Gen. Toth would like to provide my thoughts. I realize that you have discussed this at some length and much of what I say may already have been considered and rejected.
First, I intend to go by the name of Col. Boomer, commander of the USMC 26th MEU/SOC. Maybe we can convince somebody on the other side that we have the whole of a USMC battalion, plus helicopters and airsupport offshore on US Navy ships. Maybe we can even convince DD?!
From a strategic standpoint, we do not have enough troops to hold all the cities. I agree with a strategy of holding AA + CC + G at a minimum. Also, our rules of engagement seem to say that we can only fight after we are attacked. Therefore, we will initially be counterattacking. I believe the rules say we can be in the countryside as long as a highway runs through it.
I believe that the most important space is S. The reason is that mobile forces (the UK and Ukrainian) can move from S to G, T and AA in one turn to counterattack or relieve our existing forces. The second most important space is the airport, since it has the helicopters and planes and we also have no AA weapons, therefore, we must not let either side get them!
So I would propose the following.
1. Put the US Marines at the airport, not the capital city (ie CC, not AA). They have some anti-armor capability and are probably our best defensive unit, but without their AAV's, LAV's and helicopters are poor offensive units. They will probably not move from the airport, but will keep the Hinds and Migs out of enemy hands.
2. Put the Peacekeeper (PK) Co 1 and Ukrainians in AA. This is just a simple swap. On turn 1 the Ukrainians plus the M-60 from the PK 1 will move to S.
3. All other units start where they are in your agreed deployment.
4. During Turn 1 PK Co. 3 in T moves to S to join the Ukrainians. On Turn 2 PK Co. 3 will either stay in S or move back to T without the M-60 which will stay in S with the Mobile Force.
5. During Turn 1 PK 4 Co. will start to move from A toward G.
6. During Turn 1 the UK will move to G. During Turn 2 it will move to S to join the Ukrainians.
The result is 2 peacekeeping companies (2 and 4) in G with 2 M-60's, 1 PK Co. without a tank in the capital, 1 PK co. without a tank in T or S (probably T), the Marines at the airport and our Mobile Force, ready for counterattack, consisting of the UK with Warriors and engineers, the Ukrainians with BTR's and a/t missiles and 2 M-60's. The Mobile Force can reinforce G, AA or T and give us the equivalent of a battalion (2 mech co.'s (-) and 1 PK co.) to recapture any of AA, G or T.
I hope that this is clear. I believe it is similar to what you all are thinking, agrees with the importance of AA, CC and G, but gives us slightly more concentration of our mobile units. Of course, the turn our peacekeepers are attacked (the turn before our mobile force can counterattack) will probably see the peacekeeping unit retreat more than fight.
Respectfully,
Col. Boomer USMC
Pannonicus
14 Apr 04, 20:00
Hi TF,
good input, keep doing like this! However, there are a few notes:
-units are already placed, however, we can do the swap between AA and CC, I like it now, having some idea where the other forces are.
-the others know what we have in sum, so there is no point (yet) using fake unit designations. This might change with reinforcements arriving.
Units from T will move to S, so far it is OK. Later on I want to move them to G, I would better unite forces there now as all activity will be centered around the city, and with an infantry-heavy force it is easier to defend that place than the open S.
Units from A will move to C and then to G, hopefully my diplomatic efforts allow us to do it without fighting. Units from J can go to G in one turn - the same applies. They probably get air cover in case something goes wrong or just to scout the route for them.
Depending on the situation we can either reinforce S from G and AA or reinforce G from S (and a turn later from AA), this should depend on the situation. If nobody objects, this is my final plan for turn 1, tomorrow I will translate them into orders.
Finally, welcome, Col. Boomer!
Regards,
Lt.Gen. Tóth
I believe that the most important space is S. The reason is that mobile forces (the UK and Ukrainian) can move from S to G, T and AA in one turn to counterattack or relieve our existing forces. The second most important space is the airport, since it has the helicopters and planes and we also have no AA weapons, therefore, we must not let either side get them!
So I would propose the following.
1. Put the US Marines at the airport, not the capital city (ie CC, not AA). They have some anti-armor capability and are probably our best defensive unit, but without their AAV's, LAV's and helicopters are poor offensive units. They will probably not move from the airport, but will keep the Hinds and Migs out of enemy hands.
2. Put the Peacekeeper (PK) Co 1 and Ukrainians in AA. This is just a simple swap. On turn 1 the Ukrainians plus the M-60 from the PK 1 will move to S.
3. All other units start where they are in your agreed deployment.
4. During Turn 1 PK Co. 3 in T moves to S to join the Ukrainians. On Turn 2 PK Co. 3 will either stay in S or move back to T without the M-60 which will stay in S with the Mobile Force.
The result is 2 peacekeeping companies (2 and 4) in G with 2 M-60's, 1 PK Co. without a tank in the capital, 1 PK co. without a tank in T or S (probably T), the Marines at the airport and our Mobile Force, ready for counterattack, consisting of the UK with Warriors and engineers, the Ukrainians with BTR's and a/t missiles and 2 M-60's. The Mobile Force can reinforce G, AA or T and give us the equivalent of a battalion (2 mech co.'s (-) and 1 PK co.) to recapture any of AA, G or T.
Respectfully,
Col. Boomer USMC
I would keep the marines in the city. They are our best infantry and they should be applied in the city not in open terrain. Their ATGMs can move to CC in the first turn. With the 2 Ukrainian ATGMs and the 3 marine ATGMs and one M60 the airport can be defended with PCK inf aiding with spotting and close support. In open terrain thet would be enough. Fiats from CC can move to AA to give some transport and mobile MGs to the marines.
The ukrainians have to patrol areas near CC. We have to make it sure that there are no surprises hiding in the south. When the sweeping is done. We MAY move them to other critical places.
Fortunately we are not attacked so we have time to do that.
Artur.
Gentlemen:
A few further thoughts/responses:
1. Regarding assuming a persona, my experience with DD's campaigns is that there are always surprises, including units you do not expect. Others may have had similar experiences, so it may give some pause. The real reason for it however is to try to convince both sides that we may get some Marine units as reinforcements. I am a historical player (maybe a weakness?) but like things to be "realistic". The smallest regular Marine unit deployed is typically a MEU, really a marine infantry battalion plus helicopters plus airplanes, etc. carried typically on 3 US Navy ships. It would be logical in a situation like this for the MEU to be offshore and some elements landed, with the rest, in reserve and "safe" aboard ship, offshore 30-50 miles or so and able to be airlifted in on short notice. I would hope that we can convince the other sides (and DD, are you listening Mike?)that we can call on additional US Marine support from offshore if attacked. What I would really like to have are some flights of AH-1 Cobra attack helicopters and maybe some towed 155mm artillery if necessary to "keep the peace". Anyway, maybe this will all be wasted and nobody will believe it, but it doesn't really cost us anything to try.
2. With respect to Artur's comments on deployment, I think it is really just a question of priorities. I agree that the Marines are our best infantry--they have big squads (too big for a Fiat to carry?), good firepower and some internal a/t weapons with the 84mm AT-4 (I assume DD that at least some of the marines will have this and not the two 40mm GL's). From a deployment perspective, I wouldn't put them in the open at the airport, but deploy most of them (say the 10 rifle squads, mortar, mmg and dragon atgm's)in the buildings--passenger terminal, hangers, etc. around the runways. The remaining units (2 scout teams and 3 light infantry squads) would scout the perimeter and the 2 snipers would set up to spot any advance. This should allow the Marines to at least hold out for 15 turns and be able to receive reinforcements, assuming that they don't have to defend against more than say 2-3 companies of infantry and some of the tanks. If they are hit with a full battalion plus all 6 enemy tanks or even more, they will have to delay, cause casualties and await reinforcements.
The Ukrainian company is at least as good as the Marines (many more heavy mgs on the BTR's plus the RPG-16 I assume and atgms). However I feel that they are just too valuable because of their speed to leave on the defensive. The BTR's provide the speed necessary for counterattacking and the Ukrainians are a full company as opposed to the British. If we leave them tied down at the airport, we are only left with less than 2 platoons of mobile infantry (UK)--not enough in my opinion.
I also would put the Marines at the airport instead of the peacekeeping company because if I had to lose one of AA or CC temporarily, it would be AA--I just don't want to let anybody else have any air capacity. The Peacekeepers are more lightly armed than the marines, have smaller squad sizes and without the tank which I think the mobile company needs, I just can't see them holding the airport against more than say 2 companies. I have to say though, I have never used the peacekeepers before myself, my judgments are just a result of squad size and armament which is much like a 1980's US Army infantry squad (ie M-16, SAW and M-72 Law)
I hope that this makes sense. I am comfortable with whatever option Lt. Gen Toth selects and hope that we have a few turns to watch events unfold and redeploy our forces.
Col Boomer
Gentlemen,
TF 1-37 is right about the priority of CC the airport. However AA is the second priority in the game. If we leave just one PCK company without the M60 (or even with it) it can be easily captured especially because the warring sides are heavy on infantry. With the marines that is different because they are the toughest in close terrain. The Fiats can carry 13 inf so they can help the marines well.
If the airport is attacked the BTRs are ideal for chewing infantry at long range because of the more open terrain. TheATGMs and the M60 are good against the tanks.
Now it seems that we will not be attacked in the first turn. The Ukrainians should scout the areas near the airport to avoid unpleasant surprises. If the south is secure the ukrainians can move out where they are needed.(Leaving the ATGMs at the airport).We have to keep an eye on the back door.
Of course our General will decide, he has the input now.
Artur.
Pannonicus
15 Apr 04, 15:11
Boomer has convinced me, I will do the swap. I feel the same way, in fact, I felt from the beginning. I will post orders soon.
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