Nuclear Weapons

[Lord_Valentai]

Hi there, I'm considering buying one of the 1985 series. My question is; what about the use of nukes?
I see chem weapons and such being listed, but what about the use of long range nuclear and non-nuclear missiles? Is that possible, and wouldn't it end any sort of massed force fairly quickly?

Cheers.

[KG_RangerBooBoo]

Well I didn't remember any nukes so I popped open North German Plain '85 real quick and couldn't find any mention of nukes in the manual. Then again I'm not the most careful reader. I don't think any long range missiles are included either. I'd like to see more Modern Campaign players on the ladder so jump in and get a title. I like North German Plain the best since there is a player designed scenario that lets you play the a campaign that includes all of North German Plain and the Fulda Gap.

[Glenn Saunders]

Hi there, I'm considering buying one of the 1985 series. My question is; what about the use of nukes?
I see chem weapons and such being listed, but what about the use of long range nuclear and non-nuclear missiles? Is that possible, and wouldn't it end any sort of massed force fairly quickly?

Cheers.

The game idea is for a conventional War but there is a optional rule called:

Nuclear Scenario Termination – when this rule is selected, then a premature termination of the scenario is possible under certain circumstances. If at least half the number of turns in the scenario have been played and one side in the scenario has a Major Victory, then the scenario is terminated with the implication being that global nuclear war has started. This rule is simply for entertainment and has no other effect on the game. Unlike other Optional Rules, this rule does not become a default optional rule when selected and must be selected again for each scenario.

Glenn

[Glenn Saunders]

I like North German Plain the best since there is a player designed scenario that lets you play the a campaign that includes all of North German Plain and the Fulda Gap.

Actually - the Germany Expansion contains a number of add on scn for the game that are player created and was available on the HPS Website. This expansion pact has been rolled into the main game now and the Campaign you mention has listed on the designer spot "John Tiller and partners". Now there might be other but I suspect these used the basic Tiller and Company campiuagn as the basis.

That said, I agree with you that NGP is the better choice.

Glenn

[Lord_Valentai]

Okay, because it sort of made sense that nukes would be used....

[KG_RangerBooBoo]

Okay, because it sort of made sense that nukes would be used....

Well I think it would make more sense that nukes wouldn't be used as I think both sides, in the end, think that once started it would be hard to contain it to just tactical use. I think if they were used then one side would probably be losing so badly that they had nothing to lose.

[wlh]

The problem with using nuclear weapons is that it would not stay tactical. It would quickly escalate to theater level weapons and then to strategic level. The Soviet emphasis on chemical weapons and disparity of NATO vs. GSFG would have led to an almost immediate use of tactical level weapons by NATO. The disparity would depend on which scenario occurred. If NATO had time to deploy CONUS units, then there would be less of chance for early utitlization of nuclear weapons.

[Mike Cox]

Funny. We were just talking about the Davey Crocket in another forum. A jeep mounted tactical nuke whose blast radius was greater than the effective range....:nuts:

Anyhow, maybe that is a bit of chrome we could see in a India-Pakistan game (or other title) if and when the series contines.

Or do we need Donau Front 85 first??!!;)

[ebitt]

I was a "Davy Crockett" platoon leader in Korea in 1965-66 and never viewed the weapon as a suicide weapon. Although I tend to stay away from sources such as Wikpedia the quote below is probably close to the truth

"A common myth is that with no shielding or protection from either blast or radiation, a Davy Crockett crew would have been unlikely to survive any engagement, also claiming that the blast area of the warhead was greater than the range of the weapon. In fact, though the device could be fired to a dangerously short range by an inept crew, the maximum range of both versions is far longer than the distance at which dangerous direct radiation, thermal, shockwave/blast, or debris are likely to endanger the crew. At a range of as little as half of the maximum range for the 120mm version (1 kilometer) no immediate ill effects are likely. "

If you only used a fraction of the weapons we planned for a Corps "pulse" you wouldn't have much of a game.:)

[BattlerBritain]

...Or do we need Donau Front 85 first??!!;)

I did the Donau Front map for ADC and the Central Front Series earlier this year.

It's up at Nick Bell's ADC site.

[Heppy]

I was a "Davy Crockett" platoon leader in Korea in 1965-66 and never viewed the weapon as a suicide weapon. - snip -
If you only used a fraction of the weapons we planned for a Corps "pulse" you wouldn't have much of a game.:)

Ahhh! That is the best 'I was a' opening that I have ever seen. If this wasn't a virtual environment I would buy you a beer for that alone. The tales you must be able to tell.

No doubt security is still an aspect of what you did then (and yes all you AQ fuggwits listening out there we know that you'd really love to get your hands on a Davey C but these things don't just grow in caves - you're stupid and losers, give up and get a real day job) but, security permitting, are you able to share with us how the FOO aspect of things worked?

Were you all on a Corps Arty net kind of deal? Was some very sweaty palmed stay-behind OP guy supposed to dial up an All Callsigns Fire Mission along the lines of: 'I have a Gds Tk Army all round me - buckets of instant sunshine on my position now. Over' then duck into his hastily dug slit trench and pull a poncho liner over his head?

WWIII. The greatest war we never fought. Thank God.

'In our youth, our hearts were touched by fire' I often get that sense when talking to Cold War Vets. We were then facing a deadly serious and professional minded opponent. A meeting of minds. The Taliban, say, are deadly serious and committed opponents, not afraid to die in combat, but they're not into the big game stuff and they're not staff college trained thinkers either.

I suppose that there is a weird symmetry now in that the guys from West Point and Sandhurst are fighting the Taliban in the same places where the Sovs from the Frunze academy fought them in the 80s. Spooky.

Regards,
H

[ebitt]

No doubt security is still an aspect of what you did then
I worked on nuclear plans from Brigade through the SIOP (Single Integrated Operational Plan) and they are probably all still classified.

Were you all on a Corps Arty net kind of deal?
In Korea (1st Cav/2nd Inf Div anyway) the Davy Crockett was consolidated at Brigade in a seperate platoon under the direct control of the Brigade Commander. Since he was the only one who could authorize firing the weapon, I tended to stay in his hip pocket (comms being what they were then). We relied on preplanned and registered targets which was ok as we figured to be on the defensive.
The Imjin river gave us some natural choke points/targets.

[Heppy]

In Korea (1st Cav/2nd Inf Div anyway) the Davy Crockett was consolidated at Brigade in a seperate platoon under the direct control of the Brigade Commander.

Tac Nukes under the direct Control of the Brigade Commander!

Those must have been the days: when the men were all men, wore vests, smoked a lot and ate steak and potatoes while all the women looked like Veronica Lake. I know how it must have been. I've seen LA Confidential.

Regards,
H