Map Making

[John Osborne]

First question on my long list of questions down the road.

What is the recommended scale for the paper maps, is it 1:50,000? The reason I'm asking is that I found some 1:250.000 scale maps.

JohnO

[JamesBailey]

Not sure what Pat will say, but I think the answer depends somewhat on how large a map you are creating. If your map is 10x10km, you need a more detailed map (because 1 pixel on AATF is equal to something like 2.5m), whereas if your map is 50x50km, you could get away with a less detailed map (1 AATF pixel is equal to something like 20m).

So, if the AATF map you are going to build is big, a 1:250k probably might work.

Personally, I think 1:100k is 'the sweet spot', but there are certainly small maps were a 1:50k, or even 1:25k would work nicely. Of course, the more detailed or resolution of the topo, the more time you will need to spend modeling the terrain in AATF powertool kit.

[John Osborne]

The problem is trying to find maps that will not cause any copyright issues :bite:

Here is the map I was thinking on trying to use for an AATF scenario. I have already download the STRM data for that area.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/JohnOs/Jask.jpg

it is a 1:250,000 scale.

JohnO

[JamesBailey]

John,

no doubt that you could generate a decent AATF map with this topo. I think a 1:100k would do a better job, especially if you plan on having a fight in that city (I can't tell the name of it from the resolution). Most maps issued by governments (especially NATO governments) don't have copyrights on them. Of course, getting access to these topos at 1:25k, 1:50k, 1:100k is tough...

If you have the SRTM data already, generate a .XDM and then bang in that topo as a contour .BMP and if it looks like sh*t, no harm done other than a few hours of work :laugh:

[John Osborne]

The location of that map is around the Jask, Iran area. I was thinking on doing some scenarios of "What Ifs" between the US, Iran and Russia when I get my copy of AATF.

JohnO

[SoopSandwich]

John,

I think your idea for some scenarios would be very interesting. I too have wanted to start to create scenarios but I can't seem to figure out how to make the maps. Downloading and getting the SRTM data is the easy part, I can't figure out how to get the topo overlayed onto it. Best of Luck on creating your scenarios I'm looking forward to them.

[JamesBailey]

The location of that map is around the Jask, Iran area. I was thinking on doing some scenarios of "What Ifs" between the US, Iran and Russia when I get my copy of AATF.

JohnO

Sounds interesting.
Remember that the Iranian military stinks. Even the Iraqi army beat it up, repeatedly :eek:

[JamesBailey]

Downloading and getting the SRTM data is the easy part, I can't figure out how to get the topo overlayed onto it.

Soop-ster,
I have created a pretty easy to use 'how-to' guide on AATF map-making. If you would like a copy, in draft version, email me and I can send you it. Someday, I will complete the guide and make it public - just got to find some time to complete it.

[SoopSandwich]

James,
that would be great. I would be interested in trying your methods and instructions.

bobrien@beld.net

[John Osborne]

Sounds interesting.
Remember that the Iranian military stinks. Even the Iraqi army beat it up, repeatedly :eek:

I thought of that and I will be sending too you my storyline for these scenarios :D

JohnO

[John Osborne]

Hot Dam James, Pat and Curt.

I was able to make my first ATF map :D Its not as hard as I thought it would be. Thanks to James document and now that I can make maps I will most definitely start working on a scenario once I get my copy of AATF :yummy:

JohnO

[JamesBailey]

Hot Dam James, Pat and Curt.

I was able to make my first ATF map :D Its not as hard as I thought it would be. Thanks to James document and now that I can make maps I will most definitely start working on a scenario once I get my copy of AATF :yummy:

JohnO

Nice! Glad to hear it. I look forward to seeing the entire country of Iran in 50km by 50km map blocks from you shortly :)

[John Osborne]

Nice! Glad to hear it. I look forward to seeing the entire country of Iran in 50km by 50km map blocks from you shortly :)

Whoa, one map at a time :D I still have allot of questions. I still have to learn how to draw a color map like it is in AATF :D

JohnO

[Gary]

With Paintshop its possible to redraw a contour map thereby avoiding copyright. Heres an example that Curt did with the original on the right and Curts map on the left. Once Curt had explained to me how to do it I used the same process to redo all of the Falklands War maps. Its a slow process but well worth it if you want to reproduce paper maps .

Using the paper map as the master, open a raster layer over it and copy a feature using the drawing tools. When you have completed the feature delete the background (Master map) and save the layer. Then with the master map opened again go through the same process until you have all of the map features saved as layers.

Next export from ATF the contour map of the area you are building. Again use Paintshop place the first layer on the ATF contour map. Delete the background of the layer using the Erase tool. Save the contour map and you have your first layer in place. Simply continue this process until you have built your complete contour map.

[eds]

Sounds interesting.
Remember that the Iranian military stinks. Even the Iraqi army beat it up, repeatedly :eek:

That's a bit of a bold statement James. I seem to remember that it was the iraquis that were left reaching for the chemical weapons because it looked like the Iranians might finally make a breakthrough. Admittedley the initial Iraqui campaign was successful, but in 8 years they never managed to crush the Iranians.

[Pat Proctor]

Any Iranian success was a result of quantity, not quality. The human wave was the prefered tactic of the Iranian army.

I doubt the would even face us on the battlefield. They would just let us in and then fight an insurgency against us. That seems to give us fits.

[John Osborne]

James,

Going through your "Creating ATF Maps" document. I would recommended having some screen shots included. Especially for people like me who have a hard time reading and checking off the list step by step. Also it wouldn't hurt to state where the files will be saved at. That way I or others knows where to look for them. Example, during step 1.4b I know I was suppose to open a dem file but every time it ask for an xdm file. I had to switch the file and to fine it. It was located at the MapData folder, subfolder DEMS. I didn't see anywhere in the document mentioning about a MapData folder.

Just some ideas and will be posting more questions.

JohnO
ps If I can do this any idiot can make a AATF map :laugh:

[John Osborne]

Another question James, DEMCON section 1.3d states "Enter a Z multiplier of 1 (unless you want terrain to be more or less mountainous)". What are the other numbers that could go there? Is 5 more mountainous?

JohnO

[JamesBailey]

That's a bit of a bold statement James. I seem to remember that it was the iraquis that were left reaching for the chemical weapons because it looked like the Iranians might finally make a breakthrough. Admittedley the initial Iraqui campaign was successful, but in 8 years they never managed to crush the Iranians.

eds-
its a bold statement, but one supported by the facts, in my opinion.

The strength of Iranian's military is, as Pat said, its size: 70 million people, nearly entirely 100% Persian ethically, Shiia regiliously. They are organized into a regular Army, and a fanatical Pasdaran (Revolutionary Guard). The soldiers of both groups lack formal military training - little idea of basic fire and movement techniques, poor marksmanship, weak NCO/officer cadre. Because of this, they have little in the way of 'tactics', instead they rely on human momentum. Their operations, in the Iran-Iraq war, tended to look a lot like early WWII Soviet operations - massive human waves, but limited ability to control and sustain operations in depth. What is perhaps most striking to me however, is the near complete failure of Iranians to learn and adapt as Iran-Iraq war dragged on (unlike the Soviets who displayed a wonderful ability to learn in WWII and thereby improve on their operational inefficiences).

The Iraqis however, after struggling thru 5 years of difficulties (requiring the use of chemical weapons as you note), learned combined arms warfare, and by the final years of the conflict, were a vastly superior force to the Iranians (certainly on a man-to-man basis, but also on a division vs. Iranian corps level). This was displayed on the battlefield in 1988, as the Iraqi repeatedly mauled the Iranians (see for example, their very well conducted operation to re-take the Al-Faw Peninsula).

Unfortunately, the Iraqi military ability and defeat of Iran in 1988 only encouraged Saddam and his madmen to more military aggression, of course cumulating in the invasion of Kuwait and threat to the Saudi Peninsula. We all know how that has played out.

Iran has made some improvements to their force structure since the war with Iraq, especially in the area of military technology. But, I believe, the same failure at the soldier level still exists. Their ability to offensively threaten Iraq, Kuwait and the Saudi Peninsula is probably limited to 'oil warfare' and 'Iraqi chaos/instability', rather than direct military application. Pat is probably right that the Iranians would use the Iraqi model and simply allow any invading military to occupy the country and resort to guerilla warfare.

[JamesBailey]

With Paintshop its possible to redraw a contour map thereby avoiding copyright. Heres an example that Curt did with the original on the right and Curts map on the left. Once Curt had explained to me how to do it I used the same process to redo all of the Falklands War maps. Its a slow process but well worth it if you want to reproduce paper maps .


Gary,
isn't Paintshop a real expensive piece of software, costing $500+? Or is there a cheaper version that you guys are using?

[JamesBailey]

James,

Just some ideas and will be posting more questions.

JohnO
ps If I can do this any idiot can make a AATF map :laugh:

JohnO
thanks for these suggestions. I am in process of making quite a few AATF maps and might update my how-to guide as I do this mapping. Your suggestions are important ways to improve it. thanks
James

[eds]

[QUOTE=Pat Proctor;806355]Any Iranian success was a result of quantity, not quality. The human wave was the prefered tactic of the Iranian army.

Very true, the war was ill concieved by the Iraquis as the Iranians did not come to the negotiating table to talk terms after the Iraquis initial attacks as the Iraquis had intended. Unfortunately this oversight cost many lives, and much money.

[JamesBailey]

Another question James, DEMCON section 1.3d states "Enter a Z multiplier of 1 (unless you want terrain to be more or less mountainous)". What are the other numbers that could go there? Is 5 more mountainous?

JohnO


John,
I *think* that the Z multiplier is a scaling factor for elevation of the following equation (elevation in meters * Z multipler). For example, 1 simply multiplies all elevations by 1. A Z multipler of 5 would multiply all elevations by 5 (10 meters becomes 50. 50 meters becomes 250, ect). I don't see any reason for changing it from 1.

[eds]

James, you make a compelling case.

[John Osborne]

John,
I *think* that the Z multiplier is a scaling factor for elevation of the following equation (elevation in meters * Z multipler). For example, 1 simply multiplies all elevations by 1. A Z multipler of 5 would multiply all elevations by 5 (10 meters becomes 50. 50 meters becomes 250, ect). I don't see any reason for changing it from 1.

Ok, thanks. Another question :D At section 1.2.c VTBuilder, Edit Area, Origin and Size, first parentheses, enter longitude, which shows 0.00000000. The longitude that I want to place there is 57 06. Would it look correct if I place it like this, 57.06000000 or does it have to be like this 5706.00000000. Reason being is that every time I open up the ATF Power Toolkit and select the DEM, a window pops up "Map Production Information" with totally different longitude and latitude showing.

Thanks,
JohnO

[eds]

James, did you finish the map/maps of the Litani river area?

[JamesBailey]

Ok, thanks. Another question :D At section 1.2.c VTBuilder, Edit Area, Origin and Size, first parentheses, enter longitude, which shows 0.00000000. The longitude that I want to place there is 57 06. Would it look correct if I place it like this, 57.06000000 or does it have to be like this 5706.00000000. Reason being is that every time I open up the ATF Power Toolkit and select the DEM, a window pops up "Map Production Information" with totally different longitude and latitude showing.

Thanks,
JohnO

Johnnie Oscar-

Good question. You should be working everywhere in Degree.Fraction. 57 degrees, 06 minutes 0.0 seconds E Longitude is 57.1000 E in Degree.Fractions. I *think* that VTBuilder has a option box to toggle back and forth from Degree.Minute.Seconds to Degree.Fraction. If not, you can use Geotrans to convert it. Everything AATF does is in the Degree.Fraction format. My how-to guide needs to explain this.

Remember, you need to manually input the East and North Long/Lats in the "Map Production Information" window while in the Power Toolkit.

[JamesBailey]

James, did you finish the map/maps of the Litani river area?

No, I have not finished this area. I will send you JPG copy of a 1:50k topo map of the area if you are interested. Just let me know.

[John Osborne]

No, I have not finished this area. I will send you JPG copy of a 1:50k topo map of the area if you are interested. Just let me know.

James, I can help out if you want.

JohnO

[eds]

No, I have not finished this area. I will send you JPG copy of a 1:50k topo map of the area if you are interested. Just let me know.

Thanks for the offer James, i have a problem getting the SRTM data, my screen resolution does not go high enough and so the international map does not appear.:OHNO:

[Pat Proctor]

Thanks for the offer James, i have a problem getting the SRTM data, my screen resolution does not go high enough and so the international map does not appear.

I have the same problem on one of my computers. But, on the bottom left of the seemless data page, there is a button that allows you to manually imput the edges of the map data you want to download. Once you input the data into that map, and it returns map data, you can close the SRTM page. You don't even have to use it.

[Gary]

James,

I paid £50 for my copy of Paintshop Pro 9 at about this time last year. I guess other drawing packages would be ok as long as they let you build layers.

[John Osborne]

James,

I paid £50 for my copy of Paintshop Pro 9 at about this time last year. I guess other drawing packages would be ok as long as they let you build layers.

I have PSP6 and 7 and PhotoShop

JohnO

[eds]

I have the same problem on one of my computers. But, on the bottom left of the seemless data page, there is a button that allows you to manually imput the edges of the map data you want to download. Once you input the data into that map, and it returns map data, you can close the SRTM page. You don't even have to use it.

Thanks for the tip.