LSO bug??

[meade95]

My LSO option does not appear to be working? Or perhaps I have something wrong here....

Worked fine for several games. Now I can press the LOS key....but no where on the map will it give me my LOS views. When I left click anywhere on the map.......If I right click on the map, it turns the option off (like it is suppose to).

??

I am talking about the "master LSO" key - The one that is part of the panel (not the LSO key which is part of the orders for individual units).

If I click a unit and then press their LSO key (which is part of their orders)....this will show me their LSO.

But I know early on (in the pre-planning phase) I was using the master LSO key and looking around the map for potential Ob posts......I no longer have this option??

Also, does the terrain info (height, etc) only become avaliable once the game is "on"....once the clock has been activated? - Again, in the pre-planning / staging phase I don't seem to see any of this info when I click around the map at specific points.

[meade95]

Ok - Not sure exactly what happened here or what fixed it -

But I closed out, (without turning off my computer) and restarted - No joy, same LSO bug -

Next closed out AATF (and shut-off computer / restart). Restarted AATF...and fully working again??

Master LSO key works fine now - After complete CPU reboot -

[meade95]

Also just wondering - Perhaps some of the "kill ratios" for Helicopters is a bit high? (I know, I know, I have to learn to use them better.....which I'm trying to......is it best to issue "hide on contact"??).

But I've noticed I've lost several to small-arms / RPG fire....this when MH-47 / CH-47 are set on "sprint" and simply flying over an area headed to somewhere else.......I know without question BH and even CH-47 can be brought down by RPGs / small-arms fire.....but this is typically when hovering, unloading, etc.....not when racing across the sky...

Also what is the Map scale on the Anacona Ops? Each square hex =??

[Pat Proctor]

DID YOU SAY HEX?!? ;)

Seriously, the map is a continous elevation/terrain model. Elevation data is stored at 100 m intervals, but point elevations are linearly extrapolated at run time from those data points. That is all a fancy way of saying there are no discrete hexes or grids in AATF (or ATF Engine games for that matter).

For the purpose of determining scale and distances, each grid square corresponds to 1000 m (just as on a military map).

I will take a look at the RPG issue. But I will tell you that the RPG ambush is an oft used technique against helos in Iraq, and it is sometimes successful.

[meade95]

Ha! (Hex, my bad).

100 m intervals - Got it - Thanks -

Regarding the RPGs/Helo's - That was just an early observation - Could likely playout very well on the whole - I was just throwing that out there to see what others think (or if they are having the same or different encounters).....

Learning to operate the Helicopters is definitely a learning curve / process - What orders to have them set to, etc.....

Also - Suggestion - It would be nice to have the OPORD avaliable once in the mission screen (where you can look back on the exact info given) with a click of the mouse - (Though, there is probably a printable Doc.file within the AATF folder I could print out....I haven't checked on this yet).

[JamesBailey]

meade95-
how many birds have you lost to RPG fire? :)

I'm busy playing the 'Nam scenarios and haven't noticed an issue with the Huey survivability. I have certainly lost a few, but it doesn't feel out of line with what I would expect. I have left a few Hueys hovering too long on a hot LZ, resulting in some loses to HMG and mortar fire.

[meade95]

meade95-
how many birds have you lost to RPG fire? :)

I'm busy playing the 'Nam scenarios and haven't noticed an issue with the Huey survivability. I have certainly lost a few, but it doesn't feel out of line with what I would expect. I have left a few Hueys hovering too long on a hot LZ, resulting in some loses to HMG and mortar fire.


If you try and bring in one of the MH-47s near any of the LZs (1-6)....they are going down with almost 90% certainly (which I understand to some extent). However, we did put men on the ground (several times) on the Takur Ghar Mtn (real life) which sits right in the middle of these said LZs.

I know there is learning curve....regarding useage of these Helicopters (however, we only have so many options to choose from as well...in this regard).

And I'm not complaining at all (love this game!) ...I'm just trying to figure it out.......I would also note that I've lost each of these MH-47s while ingressing to their LZ....Not when at the LZ itself....(in the process of flying there).

I will say in the powertoolkit....I have noticed that the "kill odds" seem somewhat suspect with regard to RPGs and CH-47s, MH-47s, and the MH-60's. They start out with 100% kill percentages from all angles (front, rear, right, left)..... That is high (IMO).

The AH-64 has around 75% (I think)....yet the AH-64D (longbow) has kill % at a much lower rate (7%, 9%, 7%, 7%)...or somewhere around there (again, these are the kill rates Vs/RPGs).

(for another example, like a Predator or AC-130 have a 0% chance of a kill from an RPG.....which of course is accurate).

I've tried issuing orders directing to my AI platoon (allowing the computer AI) and letting them carry out the "insert and dismount" of SOF team....but the AI too was shot down going in.

Few other points.

1. I need to take my MH-47 even further out of the PL line before trying to reach my LZ for dismount of my SOF team.

2. Perhaps, I am trying to reach too close to my Observation post via MH-47. ANd I should drop my SOF team off further away.....However, this would give them a hell of a hump to reach their Ob post.

[meade95]

On several more tries now....I have managed to get a few SOF teams near Ob posts (though lost a few MH-47s after the drop off).

Also you seem to need to use AC-130 power on the drop in - To take some bad guys out (which in some ways defeats the purpose of a recon team).

Additionally how does one use Air Power? Is there a simple way to keep the AC-130 in your AO?? (after it's path it goes directly back to base? Is there a fuel issue modeled into AATF??).

What about the F-16/15s? How do I get them to drop their ordinates on specific spots??.....With the AC-130 you can get them to use both surpress and indirect fire (which works well).

However with the 1000/2000lb bombs on the 16/15s.....Is there a way to pinpoint their attacks?

Do you have to use the "attack by fire" option (which means keeping all flights within their Plt or Company level...not using one aircraft at a time for strikes?).

Thanks

[JamesBailey]

Meade95-

I haven't played the modern scenarios yet, only the 'Nam ones. But I will say, try a 'INSERT DISMOUNTS' mission (see manual pg 49 for more details). Pat's NCOs and Warrant Officers are very good :)

Also see the 'Hitting TANGO and XRAY' thread for 'Nam details.

[Pat Proctor]

To keep your aircraft from returning to base, keep giving them a path. You can give a loitering path to them which keeps them buzzing around the objective and then copy it (using the "Copy" function from the path panel). Then, when their path runs out, just paste the path back to them and they will continue to loiter. But I will say it is unrealistic to expect the AC 130s to loiter indefinitely in your fight, waiting for a call. There are only like 13 in the whole US military, and they are a high demand weapons platform.

To direct the fire of fast movers, you can use the suppress order, just as you do with other units. If you give them the suppress order, they will only engage targets in the designated area.

[meade95]

To keep your aircraft from returning to base, keep giving them a path. You can give a loitering path to them which keeps them buzzing around the objective and then copy it (using the "Copy" function from the path panel). Then, when their path runs out, just paste the path back to them and they will continue to loiter. But I will say it is unrealistic to expect the AC 130s to loiter indefinitely in your fight, waiting for a call. There are only like 13 in the whole US military, and they are a high demand weapons platform.

To direct the fire of fast movers, you can use the suppress order, just as you do with other units. If you give them the suppress order, they will only engage targets in the designated area.


Gottcha - Regarding the AC-130's - I went to the copy path mode - Which works fine....I was just wondering if there was anything else I wasn't aware of - And I understand the issue with having a 130 loiter indefinitely as not being realistic...

Regarding the fast movers - In order for them to fire / drop bombs in the surpress mode (doesn't that call for them to have a visual on the enemy??). It would be nice if there was an option, where we could just tell them (from our SOF spotters) to just hit "X" area regardless of what "you see"....because we have other eyes on the area an know whats there.

I say this, because I've had several fast movers fly by and not drop or surpress an area where I need CAS ASAP.....at it seems they don't see targets to hit....

[Pat Proctor]

The aircraft will fire on the suppress order only if they spot something (though it doesn't have to be "identified").

The AC-130, if I remember correctly, has the "moving indirect fire" capability and can be used to plan "fire missions" on unidentified targets. That is probably your best bet. I will tell you, though, that, with the exception of B-52s, B-1s, and B-2s, you will be hard pressed to get any real life pilot to drop bombs on a grid when he can't see a target (though, nowadays, I guess "safe house" and "truck full of insurgents" is a valid target description).

[meade95]

The aircraft will fire on the suppress order only if they spot something (though it doesn't have to be "identified").

The AC-130, if I remember correctly, has the "moving indirect fire" capability and can be used to plan "fire missions" on unidentified targets. That is probably your best bet. I will tell you, though, that, with the exception of B-52s, B-1s, and B-2s, you will be hard pressed to get any real life pilot to drop bombs on a grid when he can't see a target (though, nowadays, I guess "safe house" and "truck full of insurgents" is a valid target description).

Yes- The AC-130 works great with the "indirect fire" option - However, at times one of those 1000lbs or 2000lbs would work a hell of a lot better!

I know pilots can be obtuse as hell about dropping on a target they can't see / indentify (which is fine at times!).....but I have to believe if eyes on the ground are telling them to "light up" X, Y or Z "cave".....they'd 50% of the time (or more) do just that.

Perhaps down the road (patch) maybe AATF could add a feature where RT/SOF could "laze" a specific target for fast movers to hit (regardless if the pilots "see" the target itself).

Just a thought...

[CPangracs]

Yes- The AC-130 works great with the "indirect fire" option - However, at times one of those 1000lbs or 2000lbs would work a hell of a lot better!

I know pilots can be obtuse as hell about dropping on a target they can't see / indentify (which is fine at times!).....but I have to believe if eyes on the ground are telling them to "light up" X, Y or Z "cave".....they'd 50% of the time (or more) do just that.

Perhaps down the road (patch) maybe AATF could add a feature where RT/SOF could "laze" a specific target for fast movers to hit (regardless if the pilots "see" the target itself).

Just a thought...

Another option is "sharing" intel, at least among those units in the same hierarchy - even a bit of order delay or intel delay would add something...

[meade95]

DID YOU SAY HEX?!? ;)

Seriously, the map is a continous elevation/terrain model. Elevation data is stored at 100 m intervals, but point elevations are linearly extrapolated at run time from those data points. That is all a fancy way of saying there are no discrete hexes or grids in AATF (or ATF Engine games for that matter).

For the purpose of determining scale and distances, each grid square corresponds to 1000 m (just as on a military map).

I will take a look at the RPG issue. But I will tell you that the RPG ambush is an oft used technique against helos in Iraq, and it is sometimes successful.


This is where I'm just brain dead right now.... And need some help. If the typcial grid square of an AATF map corresponds to 1000 meters (which is around 3200 feet).....how is it some engagements seem to take place a few "grids" apart?? (with small arms fire).

I know I'm likely completely missing something here (obviously). But it is one of those mental blocks.....at the moment...

[CPangracs]

This is where I'm just brain dead right now.... And need some help. If the typcial grid square of an AATF map corresponds to 1000 meters (which is around 3200 feet).....how is it some engagements seem to take place a few "grids" apart?? (with small arms fire).

I know I'm likely completely missing something here (obviously). But it is one of those mental blocks.....at the moment...

Could you give specific examples of small arms firing beyond 300-400m? Realize that there ARE some MGs that can fire over 1000m, and they aren't considered "small arms". If you have seen rifles or pistols that are firing that far, we need to know!! The one small arms that might fire out far is a sniper rifle...

[Pat Proctor]

There are also some ATGMs and other weapon systems mixed in, which will fire at ranges in excess of 1km.