Mujahideen OOB/TOE

[Scully]

Ok gentleman,

I've created some Mujahideen units that I'd like to run by you to make sure I'm headed in the right direction.

They are:

Fire Team
4xAKM 7.62

AT Team
1xRPG-7
1xAKM 7.62

MG Team
1xDShK
3xAKM 7.62

82mm Mortar Team
1x82mm Mortar
3xAKM 7.62

60mm Mortar Team
1x60mm Mortar
3xAKM 7.62

Recoilles Rifle Team
1xB-10 82mm Recoilles Rifle
3xAKM 7.62

I'm modeling this off of KB's Database. How does this look to you? These are based on Lester Grau's "The Soviet-Afghan War: How a Superpoer Fought and Lost."

One side question -- I noticed on some of the teams, it had "Fire Direction Center" under special attributes. Is this to allow the fire team to call in Arty? If not, what purpose does it serve.

Thanks,
Brian

[Scully]

Also added:

Recon Team
2xAKM 7.62

Stinger Team
1xStinger FIM-92
1xAKM 7.62

Thanks again,
Brian

[Pat Proctor]

A fire direction center computes firing data for indirect fire (artillery or mortars). If a unit is not in a hierarchy containing an FDC, it cannot fire.

Mortar sections frequently are split so that they, essentially, compute their own firing data, so the mortars themselves have the FDC attribute, in order to simulate this.

[Scully]

A fire direction center computes firing data for indirect fire (artillery or mortars). If a unit is not in a hierarchy containing an FDC, it cannot fire.

Mortar sections frequently are split so that they, essentially, compute their own firing data, so the mortars themselves have the FDC attribute, in order to simulate this.

That makes sense...thanks for the quick reply.

Brian

[CPangracs]

Scully,
Realize that you can also add the FDC function directly to the firing unit to replicate an FDC inherent in the system! This is how you replicate the integrated fire-control system in the MLRS. This allows you to replicate the lack of a separate FDC in Mujahadeen units.

[kbluck]

To be specific, if an FDC is "high-angle", it only works (AFAIK) for "integrated" fire capabilities like mortars; it won't work for "outside" assets. You can't attach a mortar to an artillery battery and expect it to direct the artillery, for example.

You may also have noticed certain fire teams have FDC capability. That's to control their internal grenade launchers, which have some IF capabilities like flares and smoke.

--- Kevin

[kbluck]

5 guys is really the minimum for an 82mm to carry enough ammo to be worthwhile. You can reasonably expect a man to hump no more than 10-12 82mm shells (at about 10 lbs each) in addition to his own minimal personal kit, and much less if he's also carrying anything else like parts of the broken-down mortar, which can be quite a load all by itself; the Podnos is around 100 lbs. A five-man team can reasonably lug the mortar and about 30 rounds.

Three guys can reasonably do the same work for a 60mm; mortar and 30 rounds.

Same issue for the DShK; the gun alone is around 75 pounds, the carriage can be double that, extra barrels 20 lbs each and each 50-round belt of ammo is around 12 pounds. It can get to be a load.

You might consider also defining an "ammo bearer" team with DF or IF Ammo Carrier capability as appropriate to carry extra rounds for extended actions.

You might also consider reducing even further the size attributes of certain infantry teams, to reflect their excellent camouflage abilities in the rugged terrain and the Soviets' relative lack of advanced imaging. You'll just have to play with test scenarios until the result is pleasing.

--- Kevin

[kbluck]

I also just noticed there are no "standard" machine gun teams. The DShK is a heavy machine gun, not very portable. The mujahidin should also have teams with an RPK (heavier SAW version of the AKM) or a PKM (more or less equivalent to the US M60 MG.)

--- Kevin

[Scully]

5 guys is really the minimum for an 82mm to carry enough ammo to be worthwhile. You can reasonably expect a man to hump no more than 10-12 82mm shells (at about 10 lbs each) in addition to his own minimal personal kit, and much less if he's also carrying anything else like parts of the broken-down mortar, which can be quite a load all by itself; the Podnos is around 100 lbs. A five-man team can reasonably lug the mortar and about 30 rounds.

Three guys can reasonably do the same work for a 60mm; mortar and 30 rounds.

Same issue for the DShK; the gun alone is around 75 pounds, the carriage can be double that, extra barrels 20 lbs each and each 50-round belt of ammo is around 12 pounds. It can get to be a load.

Thanks for the information...very helpful. Knowing these guys traveled "light", how much of this do you think they carried with them? Do you have any good resources with the Mujahideen view of the war? I'm trying to hunt down "The Other Side of the Mountain" by Grau and others, but haven't been able to find the free download I thought was out there. I'm trying to avoid buying the book right now if I can avoid it.

You might consider also defining an "ammo bearer" team with DF or IF Ammo Carrier capability as appropriate to carry extra rounds for extended actions.

You might also consider reducing even further the size attributes of certain infantry teams, to reflect their excellent camouflage abilities in the rugged terrain and the Soviets' relative lack of advanced imaging. You'll just have to play with test scenarios until the result is pleasing.

--- Kevin

Thanks KBluck...you just answered two additional questions I had come up with on my train ride in this morning.

Take care,
Brian

[Scully]

Scully,
Realize that you can also add the FDC function directly to the firing unit to replicate an FDC inherent in the system! This is how you replicate the integrated fire-control system in the MLRS. This allows you to replicate the lack of a separate FDC in Mujahadeen units.

Hmmm....my thick skull is not quite grasping this one. Please keep in mind I was an MP in the Army Reserve...we were not known for our superior intelligence! :)

I'll have to play around with this a little more to figure it out.

Thanks,
Brian

[Scully]

I also just noticed there are no "standard" machine gun teams. The DShK is a heavy machine gun, not very portable. The mujahidin should also have teams with an RPK (heavier SAW version of the AKM) or a PKM (more or less equivalent to the US M60 MG.)

--- Kevin

KB,

I didn't see any mention of other MG's, but it would make sense that they had a lighter MG. I'll check again to see if I missed something.

Thanks,
Brian

[kbluck]

Knowing these guys traveled "light", how much of this do you think they carried with them?

It all depends on the situation. For a hit-and-run ambush, not much, since they wouldn't stick around long. They didn't always run, though. If they expected a serious fight, naturally they would stockpile.

The mujahidin used whatever they could capture. That would certainly include commonplace Soviet weapons like RPKs and PKMs. Keep in mind that the AKM has terrible ballistics and range; the values assigned in the game are mostly due to playability considerations, rather than believable assessments of their true effective range. They'd be well served with real light and medium machine guns to provide a base of fire from a decent range while remaining mobile.

Of course, they used what they had. It wasn't uncommon for them to be wielding 19th-century single-shot rifles early in the conflict.

--- Kevin

[Ivan Rapkinov]

Scully, just saw this - the Other side of the Mountain is a pdf dl at the NDU INSS publications site :)

[Deltapooh]

Other helpful resources:

Afghanistan: Lessons from the last War (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/) Site includes declassified CIA analysis and other documents in two volumes.

Soviet Soldiers' Account (http://www.artofwar.ru:8101/english/publicism_e.html) Very informative to read first hand accounts.

Afghanistan: Bear Trap (http://www.sovietsdefeatinafghanistan.com/beartrap/english/index.htm) I believe this is a complete book about The Mujahideen effort

Silent Soldier (http://www.sovietsdefeatinafghanistan.com/silentsoldier/english/index.htm) Another complete book on The Mujahideen

Road Warriors of the Hindu Kush (http://www.bdg.minsk.by/cegi/N2/Afg/Roadwar.htm)

[Scully]

Thanks for the additional links guys. These should really help me get things right.

Brian

[Pat Proctor]

Realize that you can also add the FDC function directly to the firing unit to replicate an FDC inherent in the system! This is how you replicate the integrated fire-control system in the MLRS. This allows you to replicate the lack of a separate FDC in Mujahadeen units.

Curt,

One small correction (actually, I am just making a geeky artillery point at your expense).

It is a common misconception that the MLRS and Paladin do not need a Fire Direction Center, because of their fire control capabilities.

The Paladin CANNOT FIRE without an FDC. The Automated Fire Control System (AFCS) does not allow the section to input a grid on which to fire. The target grid can only be received, digitally, from a fire direction center (over FM radio).

The MLRS CAN fire on its own (the section can input a grid in the Fire Direction System, FDS), but it is inadvisable. The really require a FDC to improve their accuracy (by accounting for non-standard conditions) and coordinate their firing (tactical fire direction).

Mortar sections, on the other hand, can operate in small teams, using a balistic computer and charts and firing tables and, essentially, operate independent of a fire direction center, assuming someone in the crew is trained in fire direction. This is reflected in the mortar sections in ATF.

I think the dismount teams in KB's database have FDC as a capability so that the unit can "shoot" smoke grenades as indirect fire type systems.

[CPangracs]

Curt,

One small correction (actually, I am just making a geeky artillery point at your expense).

It is a common misconception that the MLRS and Paladin do not need a Fire Direction Center, because of their fire control capabilities.

The Paladin CANNOT FIRE without an FDC. The Automated Fire Control System (AFCS) does not allow the section to input a grid on which to fire. The target grid can only be received, digitally, from a fire direction center (over FM radio).

The MLRS CAN fire on its own (the section can input a grid in the Fire Direction System, FDS), but it is inadvisable. The really require a FDC to improve their accuracy (by accounting for non-standard conditions) and coordinate their firing (tactical fire direction).

Mortar sections, on the other hand, can operate in small teams, using a balistic computer and charts and firing tables and, essentially, operate independent of a fire direction center, assuming someone in the crew is trained in fire direction. This is reflected in the mortar sections in ATF.

I think the dismount teams in KB's database have FDC as a capability so that the unit can "shoot" smoke grenades as indirect fire type systems.I'm confused. I never mentioned anything about the Paladin firing without an FDC, and I AM correct about the MLRS. You CAN fire without an FDC, whether or not you want to is out of my hands!:devious:

You also failed to mention the requirement to have up-to-date meteorlogical readings before firing either platforms! I would think that is even more important for an MLRS. The area-effect of the munitions of the weapon don't really require pinpoint accuracy,...even less if firing ATACMS!:devil:

I would never pretend to tell you about artillery, but, in it's basics, my post was, in fact, correct.;) :D

[Pat Proctor]

To get meterological data, MET, an MLRS launcher, I believe, requires an FDC, as it cannot receive a MET message from the MET section computer.

Artillery (cannon and rocket) CAN fire without MET, but it makes it highly innacurate, meaning several adjust fire volleys before hitting the target.

So, yes, Curt, your last post was correct, I guess :p ;)

[CPangracs]

To get meterological data, MET, an MLRS launcher, I believe, requires an FDC, as it cannot receive a MET message from the MET section computer.

Artillery (cannon and rocket) CAN fire without MET, but it makes it highly innacurate, meaning several adjust fire volleys before hitting the target.

So, yes, Curt, your last post was correct, I guess :p ;)
I guess the rotation is going well, eh? We need to get you back into the FA57 swing of things. "Pat Proctor,...POWERPOINT RANGER!":D

[Rob Carpenter]

The MU used pack animals (Mules/Donkey's) a lot to help with ammo and other resupply.

Cheers

Rob