tigersqn v. Southern Dandy

[Southern Dandy]

GAME ON!

We've agreed to three TOs in our game....Laszlo's point about having 1st PzA showing up late in the game, fresh, was a decisive factor to me when I agreed to that many TOs.

I'm opting for northern deployment of 2nd Guards, early release of Don reserves, and I'll go with Little Saturn at an advantageous time. I'm betting that he'll cross the release line for the Don Front...and if not, all that artillery will make the pocket go that much quicker.

All I need now is his first turn....and then, Rostov will be mine! ;)

John

[Southern Dandy]

Hi all--

Received his first turn- selection of TOs- yesterday afternoon. Flipped it back this morning a little while ago, so hopefully we'll be up to full speed soon.

John

[laszlo.nemedi]

waiting...

[Southern Dandy]

Me too! :devious:

I'm eager to liberate our comrades in Rostov, Millerovo, Stalingrad (of course!), et cetera. Perhaps tigersqn is busy in RL right now, perhaps the turn is in progress and will hit my inbox later today. *shrugs*

I'm not terribly worried about it yet...if I haven;'t heard anything from him by Thursday-ish I'll send a follow-up e-mail to see if he got the turn or not....he could be waiting on me and I don't know it! :confused: :o :nuts:

Oh well....gotta go pick up the kids from school and get something figured out for dinner.

John

[Southern Dandy]

Workers of the Soviet People's Republic!

Our dastardly yet worthy foe has launched a doomed and futile effort to save his 6th Armee trapped in the rubble of the great worker's paradise of Stalingrad. Our mighty military machine shall deal defeat upon defeat to the once vaunted Heere, and Tovarich Stalin promises a lifetime supply of vodka to the first unit to dip its toes in the Sea of Azov!

or something like that....

Tigersqn curiously chose the center deployment for LVII PzK, and is driving primarily along the north/west bank of the Don. He's reached the Don release point in a couple of spots, thus showing the wisdom of saving that TO. He also took 19th PzD, as evidenced by elements of the Italian 8th Army in contact with various rifle divisions....and they aren't dug-in! Millerovo, here I come! Although, given that there were ~1800 events in his turn's playback, I can certainly see how he could overlook that detail so far away from the main area of action.

Elements of 1PzA were heading to the center area of the map, possibly as a central reserve, possibly to reinforce the drive on the pocket, possibly to smash up 5th Tank Army. I'll know more as the game unfolds.

I haven't played my turn, but have given the situation a good looking over. Needless to say, I'll immediately begin clobbering the Italians up north, especially those that aren't dug-in. I'll use Don Front rifle divisions that aren't lining the pocket to slow and or stall his drive in that direction. I'll also attempt to start reducing the pocket immediately, a hex here, a hex there and complicate matters for him.

Pelle needs to address the overstacking issue around the pocket, btw- losses are 7-1, not in my favor, and I've not done anything except look at the map! Tigersqn really worked over the red-lit stacks all around the pocket and evapped a dozen rifle divisions, I'm guessing. There are spots where he could advance if he so chose, though I understand his reluctance to extend the frontage he's having to hold while trying to relieve the pocket.

Anyhow, I'm thinking of trying to bag LVII PzK with a single envelopment from the north by 5th Tank Army, driving to the Don, while in the south, not a lot stands in front of my forces from starting a drive towards Rostov. My goal is to create as many headaches for him as I can, and force him to give up the relief attempt and covering a lengthening front all over the board.

John

[CyberRanger]

Pelle needs to address the overstacking issue around the pocket, btw- losses are 7-1, not in my favor, and I've not done anything except look at the map! Tigersqn really worked over the red-lit stacks all around the pocket and evapped a dozen rifle divisions, I'm guessing.
Pelle has noted he will fix this in the next version by reducing the over-stacking. I was very lucky that my opponent didn't take advantage of this situation.

[Panzerpelle]

Pelle needs to address the overstacking issue around the pocket, btw- losses are 7-1, not in my favor, and I've not done anything except look at the map! Tigersqn really worked over the red-lit stacks all around the pocket and evapped a dozen rifle divisions, I'm guessing. There are spots where he could advance if he so chose, though I understand his reluctance to extend the frontage he's having to hold while trying to relieve the pocket.

I have redeployed the rfl divs around the pocket and deleted the red stacks..there are a few remaining amber ones left...Its a pity this didnt show in the last playtest before the tourney...but thats life...and coming in a later version of the scenario.

[CyberRanger]

...Its a pity this didnt show in the last playtest before the tourney...but thats life...and coming in a later version of the scenario.Darn playtesters! What were they thinking!!! :nuts:

Yeah, I figured that was an intentional design feature. Loved it as the Germans but my German opponent didn't take advantage of it ... so ... my mind didn't ponder the obvious negative consequence. The tourney is the best playtest ever!

[Panzerpelle]

Darn playtesters! What were they thinking!!! :nuts:

Yeah, I figured that was an intentional design feature. Loved it as the Germans but my German opponent didn't take advantage of it ... so ... my mind didn't ponder the obvious negative consequence. The tourney is the best playtest ever!
Yes and I think it has been (to this date) my most successful playtest ever...32 people playing my scenario and puoring out comments...If this scenario isnt well playtested after this tourney I cannot understand how you define a well play tested scenario.... :cheeky:

[Southern Dandy]

Greetings again!

After additional contemplation, I played out my turn 2 last Friday. Results weren't what I had hoped, but I evapped half a dozen units in the kessel, began pushing against the Italians in the north and Rumanians in the south. I opted not to send 5th Tank Army charging south to the Don- just not enough available to both push to the river AND hold their original frontage, plus the extended frontage all at the same time.

I received Tigersqn's turn 3 this morning, and I was happy I hadn't sent 5th Tank Army south- he's pushed major elements of 1st PzA into the very area I would have been assaulting. At this point, it's still unclear whether these forces are intended to support LVII PzK or frustrate any of my efforts with 5th Tank Army.

A small bonus for me is that I have "spotted" 3 units of 1st PzA entrained behind his lines. They're just agonizingly out of artillery range, but my flyboys will have a target to practice on this turn! They'd better knock the snot out of those Germans too, or to the gulags they go!

Tigersqn failed a proficiency check with 50 or 60% of his turn remaining- thank you TOAW gods for that small favor! Because of that, he was unable to push closer to the kessel, getting an over run here and there, but that was really it. I'm now in a position to get those Don Front units that I started circling around the west from north of the kessel into (at worst) position to harass his flanks on turn 4. Ideally, I'll be able to get them into a defensive line and really gum things up for him.

Half my Don Front units lining the kessel are in re-org, for no apparent reason. Frustrating for me, since I can't pound him as much as I'd like, but I'll do what I can regardless. That lack of replacements will start to show as I begin to collapse his positions from various vantage points.

In the north, I noted that 19th PzD is headed for the Rossoh area, right where my intended schwerpunkt (what's the Russian for that, anyway, tovariches?) is- I'm planning to use 6th Army to pound a hole in the Italian line and then pass 2nd Guards through it to exploit to the west and south. If this goes off well, I may then compel him to fall back elswhere, allowing me to liberate more of the Rodina!

And in the south, elements of 1st PzA are observed setting up defensive positions just outside of 44th Army's assembly area. The interesting thing there is the splitting up of his non-engineering units for this purpose. At this point, it appears to be a weak screen with (presumably) a mobile reserve nearby, but I'll know much more in a few turns.

Loss penalty was 10-1 against me when I sent my turn, now it's only 6-1 against me. Weird, but I'm not complaining!

I'll post a .SAL later today when I get home from work to give you guys more details on the situation. Needless to say, the early turn-ending for him was quite a break for me, and I'm feeling pretty confident about my chances now, since he has just 2 more turns of shock to go, against stiffening resistance.

Pelle, if you read this, Little Saturn is available in a non-historical game whenever I choose to use it, right? I'm hoping to save it for turn 30-ish and make a big push late when his forces are really worn out, but I'll use it sooner if conditions warrant.

With comradely good fellowship,
Ivan

[Panzerpelle]

You are correct..in a non-historical game you are free to use it before turn 40.. :cheeky: But if you wait so long the two bouns supply units that deploy when the TOs activated will be late also...

[Heinz57]

Decreasing loss penalties are owing to replacements, so VP's in that regard can vary somewhat. At 580 Rifle Squads in replacements we are getting back 1.5 Rifle Divisions/turn.

Also in this regard, if I'm not mistaken, components awaiting assignment from the replacement pool are temporarily counted against the VP's, too. Especially during the opening shock, evap'd units in supply are likely to dump the majority of their TO&E back to the replacement pool. This can account for some of the recovery, too.

Remember that the replacement pool will first be used to reconstitute units, with the balance applied to units already on board.

The unfortunate issue is the delay involved. Most of my units that evap'd in the opening of T2 will be returning, roughly 10 Infantry Divisions and 3-4 Tank Bde./Reg., but won't show until T16-30 and beyond.

Similarly, we can expect some of the German units outside the pocket that we evap to show up around the same time. But again, Axis replacement rates are much lower.

Thinking about it, this is one disadvantage of evaping elements of Sixth Army. They will likely be in supply, so the majority of their equipment will go back to the pool, though they will not reconstitute. Essentially, by killing Sixth Army, we are feeding the rest of the German Army...in a strange way. :(

[CyberRanger]

Thinking about it, this is one disadvantage of evaping elements of Sixth Army. They will likely be in supply, so the majority of their equipment will go back to the pool, though they will not reconstitute. Essentially, by killing Sixth Army, we are feeding the rest of the German Army...in a strange way. :(So ... if the pocket is contained, is it smarter to wait until turn 20 or so before really pounding it? Let pestilence and low supply do the work for you without sending the 6th Army to the German replacement pool early in the game?

[Heinz57]

So ... if the pocket is contained, is it smarter to wait until turn 20 or so before really pounding it? Let pestilence and low supply do the work for you without sending the 6th Army to the German replacement pool early in the game?

Hmmm. You seem to be onto something I hadn't considered. In my case I think it was outside consideration for the simple reason if something wasn't done against Sixth Army there wouldn't be a Don Front...ha.

Actually, I think it may be the other way around, but not sure we can afford it. If we decimate the pocket, the losses going to the replacement pool will immediately begin to support reconstituting units that have evap'd outside the pocket.

Within this context, to maximize the result, it would seem best to go ahead and destroy the pocket early (before T20), and destroy everything else after T20. That way, we won't have to kill the same units twice in the majority of instances. But, there are distinct and probably far greater drawbacks to that idea in that we have to press advances on a consistent and prolonged basis to get the VP's and the best way to do that is to get everything out of the way that we can. Doing it that way, too, might make the task more difficult in that the Axis replacement pool would likely be pretty large and probably apply more to reinforcing units on the front.

But, the idea is good -- the best thing that we can do is create "mini-pockets" and not kill them right away, just insure that they are contained and out of the way of the rest of the advance.

[Southern Dandy]

Hi again!

Flipped turn 3 back to Tigersqn earlier this afternoon. I was a dummy and forgot to make a .SAL out the file before I closed out the program, so I can't post one at this time.

Loss penalty is now 9-2 against, but I'm not so concerned about that...it was SO NICE having his turn end early. I had lots of confidence that LVII PzK wasn't going to be dug in, and just generally felt good going into the turn. I was able to squeeze out 3 rounds of combat, which was really terrific too- most of my success came in the last round!

I've begun chasing his Italians across the northern part of the map. 2nd Guards will be in the area in a turn or two to exploit 6th Army's success in blowing open his northern line.

I've come to the opinion that 5th Tank Army is overstretched at the outset of this scenario- that's STAVKA's fault way back when though! Anyhow, I'm having a devil of time pushing against the northern flank of LVII PzK while presenting a sufficient front to the west to discourage any spoiling attacks (and additional distractions for me) by the Axis.

All is quiet in the south. Lots of digging, by design. Once I get 28th Army next turn, I'll start putting the pressure on him down there as well.

In the center, I began pushing LVII PzK back from its bridgehead south of the Don. Smashed him up in a couple of places real nicely in doing so. North of and on the Don, I settled for digging in with the strongest forces I could to slow or stop him outright...rifle divisions that arrived on scene from the north of the pocket didn't have the movement points to attack. I did get one overrun against an Panzer battalion that wasn't dug-in and likely on minimize losses, and forced back another small combined force grouping in the same manner.

Around the kessel, I have not yet taken a hex of the original pocket. Most of my pressure is coming from the west right now, but am also pushing from the east, north, and south in selected locations. Fighting is hard and bitter, losses are heavy. Evapped another half dozen or so, as I recall, of his units, so he's going to be feeling some pressure to fill holes. There's a couple of locations in particular (the NE-most and SW-most hexes of the pocket) that he's down to one very battered unit holding the line. He'll reinforce (most likely) or fall back, but I'd rather he react to me than the other way around.

The entrained units got smashed pretty nicely. Losses weren't heavy for him, but the 3 of the 4 units were forcibly disembarked. I assume that means they'll be in re-org for a turn or two, but don't know for certain.

Because he didn't hit my airfields on his half of the turn, I beat him to the punch on my half, despite his slight shock advantage. That said, I battered 3 or 4 full airfields closest to the front pretty nicely. Numerically, losses were even, but that's a huge victory for me in the long run. It may put his Luftwaffe units into re-org next turn, which would let me repeat the process and maybe start evapping them outright...that'd be sweet!

I promise to post a turn 4 .SAL- otherwise, off to Siberia with me!

Tovarich Ivan

[Heinz57]

Good to go for taking the Red Air Farce into being a Force!

You have given us all hope, comrade! We may yet get our planes off the ground!

[Southern Dandy]

Greetings again, tovariches!

As promised, here's a .SAL of my game. This is from the start of my turn 4...I still actually haven't done anything but look over the map (I spent the last day or so :kotz: sick in bed with the Martian Death Flu :alien: Nasty experience, wouldn't wish it upon anyone).

It is now appearing that my opponent is planning to use LVII PzK to approach the kessel from the west, and at least part (not sure how significant of a portion) of 1st PzA to approach from the south.

Other notes...Don front units northwest of the kessel, west of the Don are moving south this turn to take on LVII PzK. Tigersqn discovered my "stop-line" of HQs late in his turn, thankfully he didn't have the ability to take advantage of that. I'm most concerned about my weakness near Kargata- nothing but artillery between him and the kessel.

He's already committed a couple of divisional HQs to the line in the kessel. Nice to see I'm pressing him that hard...now to actually start breaking into the blasted thing!

Working from the south- 28th Army will get moving this turn- not sure whether they'll go due west, or look to encircle the LFD and Rumanian divisions in the south yet...I imagine it depends on how many ants there are down there.

Note the location of 2nd Guards Army- they are heading towards Rossoh, then elements will go SW to to his reinforcement arrival hexes, the rest will push towards Staroblesk and Voroshilograd. IF this goes how I hope it does, I'll force the entire center of his line to fall back, since he'll need to do something to counter the maneuver (I know I wouldn't want an entire Guards Army running around unimpeded!)....but we'll see what happens. It's a high-risk, high-reward sort of move that he so far seems to be oblivious to. He's moved one ID up near Rossoh to deal with 6th Army that I've seen in the playback, but he'll need much more than that!

He hit my airfields pretty hard this turn- hope to return the favor, but may not be able to...I haven't looked at my air units very closely yet. I did note on the playback that the Red Air Force made 10 or so interdiction strikes during his turn, and that they hit an HQ he was airlifting from one airfield to another, so that was gratifying to see.

Otherwise, any additional analysis and advice is appreciated! I'm about to run off to work ( :OHNO: ) so I won't actually have a chance to play the turn until tomorrow (I'm off from work! :joy: :banana: ).

John

[CyberRanger]

I think the hardest decision for you right now is whether to stop his attempted linkup. He is advancing on a fairly broad front and is only a few hexes away. If you decide to stop it, you need to go all out. Bring as many Don Front units as possible into the battle from the North and East of the pocket. Pound the hell out of the pocket with every tube of Don Front artillery. If you can even get two combat rounds every turn firing your guns at seven or eight hexes with well supported limited attacks, you will start to reap big rewards in three or four turns.

In the north ... get across the rivers! Use the HQ's and engineers of 6th Army to get every single unit of the formation on the move, attacking south and west. Get the bridges repaired, especially the one at 26,4. I believe the move on Rossoh is the way to go. Get the 6th Army, 2nd Guards, and 26th Tank Corp all moving West-SW towards there and Kantirmirovka (24,7). Extend the front as far west as possible, he won't like that!

[Southern Dandy]

Greetings, tovariches!

My turn 4 didn't go so hot. After a unanticipated delay getting the turn played (youngest son, 3, in hospital for 4 days last week), I did get my turn played and sent. The irony of this was I PMed Tigersqn letting him know of the delay, checked the forums before leaving the house, and found that he had some unexpected RL issues as well!

Only one conbat round this go around, which stunk. Mixed results up and down the map...once again, I forgot to make a .SAL, so I'm working from memory here while anticipating his turn 5.

In the far north, the bulk, if not all of, 17th Tank Corp is across the uppermost stretch of the Don. Not quite to Rossoh, but I should grab it early next turn. Lead elements of 2nd Guards is also across, with the bulk of the formation right behind to continue exploiting south and west. Only thing I've seen up that way on playbacks and from theater recon are elements of 19th PzD. I'll assume the entire division is in the area, just out of sight, and not exactly prepared to get smacked by what's about to hit it. It'll be interesting watching the playback of the next several turns as the magnitude of this rupture becomes apparent to him...where will he siphon troops from to deal with it, or will he divide units locally and make things even worse?

Otherwise, began pushing across the entire front, with the exception of 5th Tank Army. That formation isn't in dire straights, but is simply not in a position to take offensive action right now. Success was had against the Italians, while the Rumanians and Germans didn't budge....yet. Another couple turns of punishment and they'll start to crack.

In and around the kessel, it seemed for every step forward, I took one back. Took one hex of the pocket, but only a armored battalion occupied the hex (on ML, not dug in). Unless he's in re-org next turn, I'll have lost that hex. Evapped every unit in another hex NE of Stalingrad, but nothing was able to move into the vacant hex. It gets more interesting on the western edge of the kessel, where I had a couple of rifle divisions evap, leaving nothing adjacent to the pocket in two locations. Grumble grumble grumble! Savaged him pretty badly though, so I don't think he'll try to move into the empty hexes...he'll lose the benefit of the fortified line terrain, plus it'll take me a turn to reshuffle my forces to deal with this little issue.

The relief effort may or may not break in....I threw it's leading elements back, and put some more forces between it and the kessel. I've decided that if he pushes adjacent to Kalach without taking it, I'm going to drop the bridge there and slow him down a bit- might make all the difference in the world and upset the Axis "master" plan that seems to be popping up in several of our games.

Airfield strikes didn't go terribly well. Losses were 26 to 10 in his favor, though the briefing dialogue claims losses for the entire turn were roughly even (which would be fabulous). I guess I can live with that loss ratio on my airfield strikes- I think he only gets 4 aircraft per turn for replacements, so the Luftwaffe will be hurting soon enough if I can keep the pressure on them. His playback showed him shuffling air units that I had battered on turn 3 to the rear and bringing relatively rested ones forward. I'd rather press the units I'd punished before, but this way, I suppose, when the Luftwaffe collapses, it'll be complete and total over a couple of turns.

Did I mention I dislike getting only one combat round in? Grrr..it'll get better, I know it will!

Ivan

[Southern Dandy]

Greetings from southeastern Russia!

TigerSqn is finally back to the mini-tourney after getting his WitW, Round 3 games completed. On his final turn of positive shock, he unleashed a 5 rounder on me. :nuts: Usually, you watch the playback and grimace, then open up the turn and realize it's not as bad as it looked on the playback. In spots this time, it's worse! :cry:

Since I have to go to work shortly, I haven't time to play the turn right away. I'm posting a .SAL for your comments and evaluation. My initial impressions follow, in no particular order...

* I plan to drop the bridges at Kalach (71,27) and at (70,25) to screw up his apparent relief plan.

* The newly created salients at (73,29) and (72,26) must get pushed back this turn, in my opinion.

* I intend to continue pressuring and collapsing the kessel where I can do so.

* The Italians in the north will continue to get blasted west and south...hopefully, lots of RBCs for me to maximize gains.

* Lead elements of 19th PzD and 385th ID are appearing near Rossoh. Interestingly, he's deliberately split them into thirds to cover more frontage....I don't think he realizes just how much ground he's going to have to cover when 2nd Guards Army gets across the river and turns south!

* Continue hitting the Rumanians in the south hard- they should start falling apart this turn.

* Pound an airfield or two, either in the kessel or closest to the front.

I'm still undecided what to do with my newly activated formations on this turn...so many possibilities!

1st Guards Mechanized Corps....should I use it to--

* Backstop 5th Tank Army?

* Drive into the northern flank of LVII PzK?

* Relieve the northen wing of 5th Tank Army so it can drive against LVII PzK?

* Use it against the kessel?

* Use it to force a break in his lines and push west?

I know which of these is my preferred answer, but I've examined my situation pretty closely and all of these are valid options....

STAVKA reserves...should they--

* Go to the kessel?

* Take on LVII PzK?

* Swing through the north by Rossoh where I'm about to open up a large section of his front?

* Swing to the south of the kessel where he's on the verge of breaking into open country southeast of the Don?

* Or something else?

Honestly, I haven't seen a turn this rough on me since JL destroyed my Axis line in Market Garden near Eindhoven!

Thanks in advice for your consideration, suggestions, and advice!

John

edit-- I haven't selected the Little Saturn option yet. I want, at the minimum, to get 2nd Gaurds Army, 1st Mech Corps, and STAVKA reserves into position before doing so. Ideally, I can hold onto this TO for another dozen or two turns and use it as a mid/late game backbreaker....and now, I really have to go to work! I hate how employment keeps me away from all the important stuff.....

[laszlo.nemedi]

You should know Stavka didnot really make plans. The plans were made by the commander and Stavka approved it. So you make the decision and we say it is OK or not :D

As for the situation:
The situation is good, and your plan to defend at Kalach is good. I think you should drop more unit there (but not from south of Kalach). I think he will push around 71,34, so preparing a defense line would be good.

As for your attack: my example shows that you have to set the direction of attacks to the victory points as early as you can, because the advance will be slow (terrain, supply, blocking enemy units...), so try to go as close to the victory point as you can.

Wainting for your attack plan!

[Southern Dandy]

Greetings again--

Just sent my turn 6 to Tigersqn. Barring a miracle, he'll link up with 6th Armee on his half turn 7...have I mentioned that I think from my experiences and watching everyone else's games in this tourney that LVII PzK is way stronger than historically? Nobody, not even me, can seem to do any wrong with it.

My turn 5 was little to cheer about. Same for turn 6. I'm borrowing a page from Foggy's Red Army Field Manual with my "pointless attacks- heavy losses" the last two turns. Pointless, because they're not accomplishing anything except heavy losses for me! At least, that's my cynical view of it right now.

Actually, I think my cynicism is because after having a bad turn 6, I watched the playback of and opened up Foggy's turn 24. Not pretty to watch or to look at afterwards. I don't have any idea what I'll do for my turn 25 in that game...I'll try to get back to that .SAL later tonight Foggy, though tomorrow is a more likely bet, since I'm off from work.

More realistically, and back on topic--

28th Army is beginnning to get rolling in the south. Evapped 5 or 6 more 6th Armee units the last 2 turns (combined). Am getting frustrated with the appearance of several colonies of Italian ants in the north. Tigersqn is doing a great job breaking down those units, pulling a couple of them back and digging them in, and leaving the third behind to slow me up. Question is, what will he do when 2nd Guards Army makes its' big left hand turn on my half of turn 7 and starts running for Vorisholgrad.

I'm attaching the end of turn 6 .SAL for your perusal and amusement. Any advice would be most welcome. Any units not dug in on ignore losses were involved in attacks last turn. I had one stinking attack burn 7 (!) rounds, which utterly ruined the turn. The rest of them went no longer than 3, and one or 2 rounds was the general result...but that one attack prevented me from really getting after it this turn. Grumble grumble grumble!

Thanks in advance,
John

p.s. Where has everybody been? I can't believe this is the first post in this section in a week! :crosseye: