View Full Version : Furocity vs. Foggy
Today - TO's have been agreed upon - my opponent waited !!!! for his
commander's response. We have agreed upon 1 deployment TO & one
other tbd. I'm going to choose the northern deployment for 2nd Guards army
w/ the early release of Don Front reinforcements. A quick question about
TO's - maybe Southern Dandy can answer this - I assume these are set in stone - what should I look for concerning Axis TO's - any red flags?
CyberRanger
17 Mar 04, 08:20
Today - TO's have been agreed upon - my opponent waited !!!! for his
commander's response. We have agreed upon 1 deployment TO & one
other tbd. I'm going to choose the northern deployment for 2nd Guards army
w/ the early release of Don Front reinforcements. A quick question about
TO's - maybe Southern Dandy can answer this - I assume these are set in stone - what should I look for concerning Axis TO's - any red flags?
Did he want two non-deployment TO's or did you both want the one non-deployment TO from the beginning?
Not sure what you are asking about the red flags. Do you mean how can you tell if he takes more the one non-deployment TO?
Furocity asked to change to 3 TO's per his newbie status. I think our
Axis opponents are up to something - I just can't figure out what.
Deployment TO - 2nd Guards Army North Historical
Non Deployment TO's - early release of Don reinforcements & use
of Don Front units anywhere
This is going to be a lot of fun :devious:
CyberRanger
17 Mar 04, 12:29
Furocity asked to change to 3 TO's per his newbie status. I think our
Axis opponents are up to something - I just can't figure out what.
Deployment TO - 2nd Guards Army North Historical
Non Deployment TO's - early release of Don reinforcements & use
of Don Front units anywhere
This is going to be a lot of fun :devious:
So ... so far I think everyone is playing with 3 TO's.
Southern Dandy
17 Mar 04, 21:28
Today - TO's have been agreed upon - my opponent waited !!!! for his
commander's response. We have agreed upon 1 deployment TO & one
other tbd. I'm going to choose the northern deployment for 2nd Guards army
w/ the early release of Don Front reinforcements. A quick question about
TO's - maybe Southern Dandy can answer this - I assume these are set in stone - what should I look for concerning Axis TO's - any red flags?
Foggy--
I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to as "red flags," but I'll give it my best guess as to the info you might be after....
There's only 4 TO's on the Axis side, though 6 appear in the menu. Three of those six are deployment options for LVII PzK. My general impression is that are friends on the Axis side seem to be choosing the southern deployment, though I could be wrong. Look for elements of 6th PzD, 17th PzD, or 23 PzGndr....these are the most potent elements of the Korps as a whole. Wherever they appear against your lines will tip you off as to the deployment he's chosen.
19th PzD won't appear in the front for 2 or 3 turns if he's selected it. What will tip you, if your theater recon will allow for it, would be the Italian 8th Army on the move. It's also possible that you'll catch some rail movement from the west in the playback in the early turns, which may be elements of 19th PzD on the move. Best bet is to watch the Italians- if the start moving, 19th PzD is on the way.
1st PzA...best bet will be to watch for a lot of movement in the playback in the Rostov area. In our game, 1st PzA didn't show up until turn 8, though I hotseated the tourney version for 3 or 4 turns to get a feel for the Soviet side...in that test, 1st PzA began showing up on turn 2!
Thunderclap....depending on what he's selected, this may not be an issue. It's a safe guess that this option would be triggered when there's only a couple of hexes left between the pocket and the relief force, but watch for two amazingly strong KG units to appear in the southern or western border of the pocket to try and punch a hole out to the relief effort.
Hope this is what you're after...if not, let me know!
John
Hi All - just flipped T2 back to Furocity. 57 Pz Korps appeared south
driving towards the Myshkova River. I should be able to hold there.
I'm guessing 1st Pz army taken but I saw HQ's moving south west in the pocket. I eliminated the Bradenburger unit dropped NE of Chir Station. I pounded 48th Pz Korps pretty good - moving 4th Tank Corps & 3rd Guards
cav to take advantage of the retreats. Attacks all along the pocket perimeter
- units dug in after 1st round.
Air battle going as well as expected. Only two units not in re-org - 73
friendly vs. 81 enemy aircraft lost. Not too bad :)
After 2 turns - even into enemy shock - losses Axis 1 - Soviets 2 with
significant damage to the Axis 48th PZ Korps. I'm planning to try to pocket
the relief effort but most efforts directed to a onslaught south by 2nd Guards army - I have not moved guns or tubes from North of the pocket yet- I want to see my opponents reaction to 4th Tank/3rd Guards cav movements. My opponent is a newbie - many artillery units seem to have been on local reserve & moved into the front lines :devil:
CyberRanger
19 Mar 04, 13:02
Hi All ... My opponent is a newbie - many artillery units seem to have been on local reserve & moved into the front lines :devil:Oh my ... you are going to kill him.
Need help from someone - where do I read about attaching a zipped SAL
file to a post?
laszlo.nemedi
19 Mar 04, 15:47
Scroll down in the reply screen and you find the Additional options
T2 Sal - oops forgot to add file
laszlo.nemedi
19 Mar 04, 16:44
Ooops south deployment again (I feel lucky to choose south deployment)...
but seems a little bit better. Is it a in turn save?
Yes I believed I saved it pre-attacking. You can tell if the units around the pocket ( 1 unit left in each for min attacks) are dug in. Please notice the
48th PZ Korps - moved forward well but left the southern flank bridge defended by a SEC unit which a rifle division promptly forced out. I think my opponent has advanced on a too wide front. I see some possibilities w/28th
army from the west & 4th Tank/3rd Guards coming south. If nothing else -
this should keep the 1st Pz units coming here & not to the rescue of the
allied units :)
This SAL is the begining of T3. I've got to get a multiplayer DNO Soviets turn done 1st - please tell me my opponent did not move a army HQ as close to the front lines as I think :love:
You will be able to stop him easily unless he doesn't establish a right flank -- too early to tell though he does seem to be making the effort with the 7th Rom Cav Div. If he doesn't establish a right flank...ha, he could very well break through but then the relief effort itself will be easily pocketed.
Easy to get trapped into a 50 km front. When he does reach your line of defense, it will be diluted and significantly more vulnerable if he doesn't get a chance to dig in after attacking.
Everything else looks good.
Bob Cross noted that aircraft, enemy lost, is a variable multiple of 1.5, 2.0, or 2.5 --or something like that. That's "actual lost" and not lost + replacement pool. Something to bear in mind but attrition and eventual shock will get the better of the Luftewaffe.
Thanks for the advice - I still have T3 to do - the air results are from the beginning- more a factor of what he's doing than I am doing to him -will post the SAL on the end of T3 shortly!
laszlo.nemedi
21 Mar 04, 01:21
Be careful at around 63,28, many places your forces are not dug in ignore losses. Someplaces you really put in everuthing (e.g. HQ units, arty) in the first line, try to change them to regulars...
The more I see the more I think it's a mistake for the Axis to try and relieve the pocket ...
This one is looking good as long as you don't get too carried away. There's 40 turns to win this one in.
Hi All- beginning zip from T4 - comments would be appreciated :confused:
Hi All- beginning zip from T4 - comments would be appreciated :confused:
Can't help until I know the password to open the file ... Do you have a .sal you can zip up instead ?
Sorry again - this should work better :D
laszlo.nemedi
21 Mar 04, 12:16
So where is the file?
This looks really good - I think you have him all ends up ! You have good breakthroughs in the North and South, and he has nothing much in the centre yet !
Word of warning - if I was him I would use my Italian artillery to knock six bells out of your 'red' stacks in the North - try and thin them down a bit.
In the reverse, you will see great results if you focus your artillery around the pocket on his 'red' and 'yellow' stacks.
Keep up the good work tovarich !
Heh...looks pretty good - very fluid though. Consideration might be given to reinforcing the area between 24A and Kargata with elements of Don (infantry from 62A or 64A) to "pin" Rom 5th Cav while 24A gets it from behind -- leastwise, you will want to advance as much as possible with 24A but best not to leave it fend for its own flank coverage along the entire length of its penetration.
2-3 turns and most of Don's Rifle Divisions will be in 90+ R&S and it looks like you are keeping him drained, the pocket looks good. His chance for a breakthrough appears to be over and 14th PzK HQ has surrendered for a 1 pt bonus.
laszlo.nemedi
22 Mar 04, 10:07
Khmmm: dig in (ignore losses)!
far north: you should attack using all power (most of you units just sit there...)
north: nothing
Central: dig in ignore losses! you need reinforcement there as it is very weak line
south: huh, not very good, you should spread, attack heavily the italians/rumanians
stalingrad: OK
CyberRanger
22 Mar 04, 10:11
Looking good! I bet GunnerC will trade you games! :nuts:
I see you are moving some of the Don Front reinforcements to the NW. That's my plan too once I get that far along but I'm starting to second guess myself some because of the time used in moving them there. I'm starting to wonder if it would be better to use them to pound the Stalingrad pocket and then move them elsewhere when that is done. Opinions?
laszlo.nemedi
22 Mar 04, 10:25
Looking good! I bet GunnerC will trade you games! :nuts:
Sure :cry:
I see you are moving some of the Don Front reinforcements to the NW. That's my plan too once I get that far along but I'm starting to second guess myself some because of the time used in moving them there. I'm starting to wonder if it would be better to use them to pound the Stalingrad pocket and then move them elsewhere when that is done. Opinions?
Usually I am not planning so much ahead (however I make some initial plan, and analyse the situation), but in the heat of the battle I become very very flexible, if I find some weak points in the enemy situation I expose it. For this I do many probing, recon missions...
So in short I don't know how I will use my reinforcements when they will appear... :o
Southern Dandy
22 Mar 04, 11:10
Looking good! I bet GunnerC will trade you games! :nuts:
I see you are moving some of the Don Front reinforcements to the NW. That's my plan too once I get that far along but I'm starting to second guess myself some because of the time used in moving them there. I'm starting to wonder if it would be better to use them to pound the Stalingrad pocket and then move them elsewhere when that is done. Opinions?
I'm thinking along the same lines....I opted for the early reinforcements, figuring I could pound the snot out of 6th Armee with all the extra arty. When that situation is resolved, or at least I know it's going well in my direction, then those extra units can go elsewhere as the situation dictates. My preferred option would be to loop around to the south, reinforcing 28th Army and driving on Rostov, but I haven't made any hard and fast decisions yet. My thinking is that in doing so, I'll stretch him so thin that somewhere he'll have to break and not be able to immediately reinforce the area....but I'm probably missing something obvious along the way!
John
laszlo.nemedi
22 Mar 04, 11:16
using the reinforcement to crack the 6th army maybe a waste of forces.
Our victory points are out there, so the main weight should place on the outer front, I think...
I tend to agree with Laszlo. Pound away with expendables around the pocket to see what gives and what holds over the course of a few turns. For the Pocket setting a goal of 2.5 hexes/turn average should put you in good shape.
Maybe a Clauswitz, but not sure -- "Always reinforce Success" - my inclination would be to put the reinforcements in support of 1st - 3rd Guards. Whatever you do, make sure you have adequate front line forces to keep it safe and deliver one helluva frontal assault. 2000+ tubes? :surprise: ...heh... :nuts: :love: :nuts: :D :D :D
Hello all - end of T7 zip file. Not looking good for the pocket - he's going to link up - I don't know if he'll be able to keep this up - look at the size of
some of his front line units!
laszlo.nemedi
23 Mar 04, 16:26
Hello all - end of T7 zip file. Not looking good for the pocket - he's going to link up - I don't know if he'll be able to keep this up - look at the size of
some of his front line units!
I think he can make link to the pocket, need time to find out something, but as your units not dig in and not in ignore losses, it is an easy shot for him...
Yes - we have been slugging it out turn by turn - I'm looking forward to
the pocket escape attempt :devil:
Quick question - I have been attacking the pocket every turn on ML/LA. His
northern defenses are really thinning out - what's the best way after breaking
in to exploit the collapse of the pocket - armor or infantry?
CyberRanger
24 Mar 04, 08:18
Quick question - I have been attacking the pocket every turn on ML/LA. His
northern defenses are really thinning out - what's the best way after breaking
in to exploit the collapse of the pocket - armor or infantry?I tend to handle it this way:
1. See if I can get any overruns with those big infantry units.
2. On the final combat round, try to have an armor unit that can advance into the enemy's hex. My thinking here is that non-dug in armor is less damaged by artillery counterattacks than non-dug in infantry.
Not sure if that helps at all!
laszlo.nemedi
24 Mar 04, 09:31
Maybe we can start a thread: how to destroy the pocket.
My method is the following (it is not problem if we have different methods, later it can be compared and the later starter can benefit from it):
(few months before I prefered the supply drain attack, but MikeJ changed my view in one of our game)...
I look for relatively weak and red lamped units which has 3 side exposed to me. The units adjustent them should be big ones (usually 5-6 times more strength and armour), I call direct fire support (many many of them) and attack ignore losses, it usually burns 2-3 tac round which is not bad, and I can be almost sure the attack is successful. (the two flank units only attack the half strength but ignore losses).
(in the beginning the loss rate is high but later it is going down (proficiency going high as many won battle, in supply drain the unit proficiency going down)...
CyberRanger
24 Mar 04, 09:38
... (the two flank units only attack the half strength but ignore losses).
(in the beginning the loss rate is high but later it is going down (proficiency going high as many won battle, in supply drain the unit proficiency going down)...Hmm... I hadn't considered the proficiency factor. Goes up because you "win" the battle? Are you still using limited attack?
laszlo.nemedi
24 Mar 04, 10:12
Hmm... I hadn't considered the proficiency factor. Goes up because you "win" the battle? Are you still using limited attack?
Supply drain against only the big enemy units, 20-30% of the attacks...
The more in the battle the more I don't use it, anyway it is more interesting as I can make advances, in supply drain you can maybe can move forward...
T8 zip end - I'm going to plow into the northern part of the pocket next
turn w/the big artillery units - straight for Gumrak? Also holes are opening up on his front lines in the north - his units are in bad shape - should I blow right by them - or eliminate them? The reason I ask - I don't see many reserves
at all :)
laszlo.nemedi
24 Mar 04, 13:11
The situation not bad at all, but don't let the 6th army escape from the pocket.
His units in the corridor are weak, so attack them ignore losses with as many units as you can and use arty support, and send into the corridor at least one unit to stop the escape. If you have chance, attack the HQ units (and the Paulus unit in the middle). Don't bother with the losses in that situation.
You can attack anywhere you want as the situation is good (you can do one breakthrou in one place, or attack everywhere).
You can start to make a bigger pocket if the HQ units escape...
plutonico
25 Mar 04, 09:52
but i dont understand why you are sit in 46,11 with seven so hard units. i want send them to break the rescue attemp.
T9 end zip - many Axis evapp's northern pocket - no more attacking w/ML.
Another set of air attacks on the Paulus HQ - another 10% loss - maybe in re-org - didn't move last turn? When do I get the 44th army? I'm starting to
pound him up north as well - starting to get the 2nd guards army across the
river. I have a mech corps waiting to exploit a hole I just pounded in the
center of his line. Notice the massive splitting of units down south near
28th army - roadblocks I'm guessing.
End of T12 turn - need some advice - starting to make holes - but wondering
about Axis strategy?
Southern Dandy
30 Mar 04, 13:59
Foggy--
I've DL'ed the file, will look it over in a bit. I'll take my best stab at what he's up to later this evening, unless you're in a hurry to get comments before then.
Happily enough, my life seems to have settled down a bit and I should, barring something unexpected, have another turn for you this evening or in the morning, depending on how many rounds I can squeeze out of my turn.
John
That would be great - the loss ratios are starting to get better for the
Russians. The air force seems to either great or bad - can't figure out why?
I've been using the artillery to really pound the allied units. What's the best
thing to do w/the 44th army - Rostov - or straight north for the rail line?
Southern Dandy
30 Mar 04, 17:04
Foggy--
First, Yahoo mail and RealDownload don't get along on my computer. I don't know why that is, but I had problems during the War in the West tourney against JL also....so, if you could resend your turn 21 that'd be grand!
Anyhow, looking over your game....
It looks like he's placed 5th SS PzD in the far north, near Rossoh. He might be thinking of trying to cross the Don up there, or anticipating that you're aiming in that direction and wants to give you a hot reception. Anyhow, that's where the divisional artillery is, and since he's done a good job of keeping formations together, it seems logical the rest of the division is nearby.
His German infantry (284th, et al, in that area) are getting stretched out and worn down...keep pushing! Keep battering the Italians as well- they don't reconstitute, so he'll have to fill those holes with a dwindling reserve.
Keep smashing those Rumanian ants in the south with 28th Army. I'm not sure if splitting the rifle divisions into brigades or battalions will allow you to overrun them or not, but if you can encircle and kill them outright, he'll have to divert forces from somewhere or you'll again bag 6th Armee, and get LVII PzK to boot!
About 44th Army....my opinion is to go for Rostov, first and foremost. That's where the VPs are, and crucial to his supply situation for LVII PzK. It's about to become turn 13- because he took 1st PzA early, he's going to lose his supply point in Zimovinki next turn (if I'm not mistaken).
It looks like 44th Army is up against half of 1st PzA. 16th Mot Div is opposite your right flank, it looks like (and I'm guessing here) that 7th PzD is concentrated near Samorokrowka (34,52) and that (guessing again) 111th ID is on the left flank, south of Rostov and Bataysk. I'm basing my last two conclusions on the limited recce info available in the .SAL, btw....
Closer to Stalingrad, it looks like he's attempting to turn your flank with 23rd PzD south of Beketovka. You have 51st and 64th Army in that area. I'm guessing he's wanting to shorten his lines by using the shallow water hexes....but that's going to freeze solid on turn 15...which could be very entertaining!
Overall, I'd submit your biggest tasks would be to cut the Rostov-Zimivinki road and the rail-line running through Chir Station, Surovinko, and westward to the supply points for the Axis. Doing so will create a supply dilemma for LVII PzK and what's left of 6th Armee.
You're already adjacent to Surovinko, but he has 3rd PzD concentrated there as well...pushing south against 11 PzD (those isolated engineering units, in particular) SW of Martinovka may yield great results for you and start to turn his left flank. This is very aggressive and high risk though, since the super rivers (Don) freeze over on turn 15 also! Lower risk would be to push against that LFD guarding the approaches to Millerovo (I think, I don't have the .SAL open anymore) with 5th Tank Army.
Overall, you seem to be in a solid position. It looks like he's committed just about everything to the line that he has available right now, and he gets no major reinforcements for another dozen or so turns- the only major formation not directly involved in anything yet is 5th SS PzD, but I'm betting that's near Rossoh- possibly backstopping or even relieving the Italian forces up there for use elsewhere. A small demonstration against the Italians across the river (if they're still there) may tie down 5th SS PzD for a while, letting you create a crisis elsewhere.
Keep punishing him, especially those Italians and 6th Armee units- they won't reappear, and he'll have to fill those holes somehow.
John
Many thanks for the advice :) I'm trying not to do the ant style - am adopting the full ignore losses ( Lazlo) style - have to be much more careful in attacking than I'm used too- what's up w/the Red Air Farce?
T21 coming back to you now - count your blessings that I have no 44th army you Maniac! ( memo to everyone else - Southern Dandy is a Maniac - I'm a
Mass***e!)
Having spent an inordinate amount of time sitting in my lounge chair outside, smoking, drinking coffee, I've pondered the various Axis offensives in this scenario. Despite different TO deployments and a significant turn difference in our games, I'm awaiting T7, there are distinct similarities re: Don Front.
Your opponent seems to want Stalingrad in a bad way, and if he can keep it til end of game, that's 20 VP, +10 for turns, and deprives you of 9 for the HQ's, you already bagged 1. Don units are free to move out of the pocket whether you've taken the TO or not, as 57th PzK or 11th PzD has crossed the line.
My suggestion/s need careful consideration before accepting them. They have distinct downsides. I'm contemplating similar actions if my opponent still seems intent on continuing aggressive offensive activity beyond T8 vs. Don Front.
First, pull units in the area of Beketovka into defensive positions onto Sarpinski Island, hexes (84, 31-2), (85-35) and the area of (86, 36-38).
Second, it takes a while, but get your AD units moving toward the front, railed where possible. They are doing little to nothing in protecting airbases from airstrikes.
You will need as much offensive capacity as possible. It might be worth considering pulling forces from the area of Vertachi (W side of pocket) to the NW, behind the river, unless you feel you can press a strong offensive in that area. This group could cover a stretch from (64, 24) to (74, 21) and free up elements of 5th Shock and 5th Tank to reinforce an offensive push at and W of Surovinko.
Concurrently, or as a stand alone operation, pull 1st Mech Corps straight toward Petrovka on a 20 km front linking with 3rd Gds A.
This relieves more of 5th TA to also concentrate on offensive activity between Georgievski and Surovinko. Might be appropriate to narrow the actual offensive front somewhat, probably to concentrate SW & S toward Morozovsk.
In the north, generally, you will need to hammer his lines a lot harder. To approach victory, 6th Sov. Army + 1st Gds Army will need to get to Voroshilovgrad, about 125 km. To effect this, you only need to make a frontal, or near frontal advance of 5 km per turn, average -- doing whatever it takes to maintain that rate. Set similar goals for other armies, 1 hex/turn.
In this regard, however -- it may take two or three turns to get the ball moving, and a few more turns to make up for the slack.
On a per turn basis, count your kills - casualties per battle. Aim for a min. avg. of 600 Rifle Squads, or 1,000 Infantry of all types (except engineers). Axis only receive 50/120 or so respectively in replacements. As many as 50% of what you do kill will likely return to the replacement pool. These will feed reconstituting units first, and units on the front second. There are well over 100 units requiring infantry...so they may get 1 squad per regiment?
I think that's about 2.5% casualty rate required per turn dead, with another 2.5% "wounded"...
Other than that, precede each turn with 1 liter of vodka, so that when you do look at your VP penalty, it doesn't hurt so bad.
Hello comrades - still pounding away - losses 2-1 German favor -
air force comes & goes - the 44th army is going to make this enjoyable. Check out the far north for a chuckle :cheeky:
laszlo.nemedi
06 Apr 04, 13:08
Hello comrades - still pounding away - losses 2-1 German favor -
air force comes & goes - the 44th army is going to make this enjoyable. Check out the far north for a chuckle :cheeky:
Situation changed (thanks to the 44th army), so you can consolidate your situ in the center...
Nice anyway... :cool:
T32 end SAL - not an enjoyable to start a 3 day weekend :eek:
laszlo.nemedi
29 May 04, 05:25
It is not SAL, but PBL file
This should be the beginning of T36 SAL. I'm actually doing better against
Southern Dandy in the 1.46 playtest w/o the 44th army. I think the only thing I can do is banzai Rostov :hush:
CyberRanger
14 Jun 04, 16:45
Yeah ... that doesn't look very good :-(
Amazing the different results we are seeing in this scenario. I think turn 2-4 really decide it and it is decided by the Axis player. I hope the changes Pelle has made in the newest version (especially fixing the red stacks Soviets around the pocket) will help that problem.
I really don't know what I did wrong - I think the 57th panzer corps is too strong at a guess - but I have to congratulate Furocity on a royal ass kicking.
He's still keeping units on local reserve - it's been driving me nuts - but I'm not getting the combat rounds to dislodge them :dead:
laszlo.nemedi
02 Jul 04, 04:43
Hmmm, many of his unit evaporate or retreat without fight.
What was your style and what do you think went wrong?
Share your thought of the fight...
My biggest mistake was not planning breakthru's well enough. Many times I broke thru his lines & could'nt hold the flanks of the penetration open. Also
even digging in against rested panzer units was no help - the only time I caused heavy casualties was in his infantry units near my rocket units. I did'nt start the fighting for the point areas soon enough - I was too busy trying to create large pockets - the russians don't have the supplies for this!
Remember I did not split units down (tourney style) nor to my best knowledge
did Furocity do so - an aggressive Axis player has the advantage from the start if the little Saturn option is not taken :dead:
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