GunnerC vs MikeJ [Archive] - GameSquad Forums

GunnerC

17 Mar 04, 18:48

Oops ... he made a great attack and got further towards the pocket than I would have thought.

His tactic is to hope I used the 'Allow DON front to fight elsewhere' TO, which would have been wasted - fortunately I didn't ! When do the Don reinforcements arrive as I chose that TO (and will use Little Stalin) ?

My air force is in disarray, and I let loose with all my artillery on the pocket to make use of it before it gets overrun (at least those elements on the West). I have some troops coming from the North to pathc up holes in the line, and I will try and rescue as many as I can from his encirclement action - but it doesn't look to be many.

I made some progress against the Italians, even with limited forces attacking - hopefully enough to keep him worried about it up there (though I think he deployed in the North).

Save file as at the end of my turn 2 attached.

CyberRanger

17 Mar 04, 19:46

When do the Don reinforcements arrive as I chose that TO (and will use Little Stalin) ?
.Look for them around turn 5. look forward to examine the file when I have more time tomorrow.

Heinz57

17 Mar 04, 21:25

Hi GunnerC,

Just looked at the file. Looks like he's taken early 19th PzD TO, there's PzG elements @ (8, 12) which couldn't be there otherwise. That gets Thunderclap out of the picture. 3rd PzD/1st PzA is entrained in Morozovsk, some elements still at their entry point.

I'd recommend digging everything in 3rd Guards Army that is in mobile status, and if possible get something to screen the Army HQ in case he swings that way. Also a good idea to reduce the overstacking along the pocket...but it looks like you are making good on the situation there with probing attacks.

Dang. Back to my drawing board...ha. This isn't what I would have expected, it does look like he has a pretty good shot at putting 5th TA in the bag. But then, wherever 57th PzK was deployed the situation would look rough, so 51st Army and parts of Don Front get the reprieve.

Heinz57

GunnerC

18 Mar 04, 19:06

Here we go - end of turn 3.

Apologies - I checked for advice after I played this turn.

Artillery has started to soften up the edges of the pocket - gained 2-3 hexes, and some of his unites 'evaped' under fire.

As suspected he has completed his encirclement, so I attacked as much as I could with them to lose units and get them back into the replacement pool (they would die under his attack next turn or two anyway, and if they die unsupplied they don't go back to the replacment pool !).

Early turn end caused me to leave a fair bit of artillery not dug in - which is a blow - but it will be interesting to see where he goes from here. He seems to have stopped just outside the '*' line - possibly waiting to see if I played the 'Use Don forces anywhere' TO. If he stays there I'll eliminate the pocket and delay little Saturn for a few turns to keep him guessing ...

Heinz57

18 Mar 04, 22:02

Hey GunnerC!

You make a good point with getting units back into the replacement/reconstitution pool early. Everything in the Soviet OOB will reconstitute.

In the air war, are you seeing him attacking your air bases?

Heinz57

GunnerC

19 Mar 04, 01:13

Yes, on the fist turn he mved a lot of air units and hit all my bases. In both combat turns to date I have lost more planes in about a 3-1 ratio, and in each have had only one air unit not in 're-org'.

He appears to have a number of units on combat support judging by battle results.

laszlo.nemedi

19 Mar 04, 04:12

I thought MikeJ will be lethal, but it is really a disaster.
You can only slow him down...

Some thoughts as I saw your save file:

tactical level:
Always dig in ignore losses, use natural places where the entrenchment level more than 10-20%.
Dig your arty in ignore losses.
If you have small number of unit and cannot make a continous line, make defense net (units with one hole between them, and one unit behind the hole (all dig in ignore losses). It will only slow him down, so move units from other frontline to here.

operational level:
make him worry a bit (I fear he will not): attack heavily on the wings and far wings (that attack on the Italian side is good, but maybe not enough).
Attack: many units 3 side adjustent, heavy artillery fire support, ignore losses, and not against armour, but soft and weak units, don't bother with the number of phases you get.)
Defend heavily on the central part...

PRAY...
I am lucky to avoid MikeJ as Opponent...

laszlo.nemedi

19 Mar 04, 07:06

I read the other comments, maybe only me who worry?
I think 3Gds will be eliminated before full activation... :(((

EVERYONE! WESTPOINTER!
I propose everyone see this save file, and build up a possible plan for GunnerC. MikeJ is the strongest in the Axis side, and he is very very analytical so I think he made a lot of advices to the others, and be prepared for attack like this.
GunnerC can you send the PBL file with password to see how MikeJ moves his units? (of course Westpointer should allow it before...)

CyberRanger

19 Mar 04, 08:37

I read the other comments, maybe only me who worry?
I think 3Gds will be eliminated before full activation... :(((
I'm not sure it's all that bad. Yes, the 26th Tk Corp and a lot of the 5TA units will be destroyed but hey .... the Soviets situation WILL suck the first few turns. If he hadn't taken out the the units in the north, he'd killed the 51st Army.

A few items I noticed immediately:
1. All of your defenders should be dug in. Why aren't your surrounded units dug in? Did they get retreated there and not have any mp's left to dig in?

2. All should be on ignore losses. The first thing you should do at the beginning of turn 2 is place every unit on ignore losses. (Forgive me if I'm preaching to the choir ... it's always worth repeating.)

3. Don't get concerned about the air force. I think that's about standard. I just got my turn 2 and all but 2 air units are in re-org. It was painful watching them attack during the replay ... when that's not what I wanted ... but that's the game!

4. Turn 4 is next! Most of your units are un-frozen. I see no threat to 3rd Gds Army, especially once 1 Gds Mech Corps is activated on turn 5.

5. He is definetly setting outside Stalingrad being careful not to trip the **** boundary. I'd expect that once he eliminates the pocket that he's surrounded, he'll want to swing west and link up with Stalingrad, if he feels he can.

6. Your job .... work your plan! Look at his situation. Right now, he's done nothing but launch a spoiling attack. He's gained no vp points except for gaining 3 pts on the loss penalty. That will increase but we expect that. If he can eliminate the Soviets that are surrounded. What then? If he turns east, he has three Soviet Gd armies attacking behind him. Not pretty. If he turns west, he will not be able to relieve the Stalingrad pocket. Going north serves no purpose.

7. Here's some of my recommendations:
a) Move a lot of the Don Front artillery on the west side of the pocket where they can support limited attacks against the Germans east of Ostrov. I see you have the 13th Mech Corp moving up. Get them attacking towards Ostrov from the SE with the Don Front units doing ML/LA attacks from the east.
b) Get the 4th Tank Corp and the 3rd Gd's Cav Corp off the west edge of the pocket and have them attack NW towards Bolshe Nabatov (67,24) with the 226 Rifle Div supporting down the road towards Ronin. If he doesn't kill your pocket by the end of his turn 5 (whic he probably will anyway but you have to try) the hunter will become the hunted!
c) Raise hell on the Italians with those three Gd Armies. Don't go running down to battle the 57 Pz Corp with them. Stick to YOUR plan.
d) Raise hell on the Rumanians. With no additional German troops on the south flank, the Soviet 28th and 51st Armies can tear a new a-hole in the southern German lines. Take the rest of the 13th Mech Corp (around Kargata 76,38) and hit those Romanian cav regiments. March the 28th Army due west. He will have to pay attention!

My thoughts for now. Stick to your plan ... get dug in ... and get on ignore losses.

CyberRanger

19 Mar 04, 09:16

...
GunnerC can you send the PBL file with password to see how MikeJ moves his units? (of course Westpointer should allow it before...)I don't think there is anything wrong with this although I don't know how much that will really show you. If you want that, please let the player know and have him email you the file individually. We don't don't want to clog up folks email or get people confused about why they are receiving a PBL file.

CyberRanger

19 Mar 04, 09:19

...
Attack: many units 3 side adjustent, heavy artillery fire support, ignore losses, and not against armour, but soft and weak units, don't bother with the number of phases you get.)
...Good advice BUT NOT ignore losses. USE Min Losses ... Limited attacks unless you really want to take the hex! DO worry about the number of phases you get!!!! You want those artillery tubes to fire as many times as possible! In 40 turns ... that will make a huge difference!

If you plan your attacks well, you should be able to get at least two combat rounds. On a unit where you can attack three sides, attack one edge with a small ML/LA during round one. During round 2, attack with a small ML/LA from the other edge. (Don't attack from the middle hex ... you don't gain anything.) By doing this, you will minimize your losses and the 2nd attack will get the flanking benefit. If you get another round attack with another edge unit. Don't worry about how strong the ground attack is ... you want that as weak as possible. The ground attack is only to make the artillery support have it's greatest impact.

CyberRanger

19 Mar 04, 09:26

....

Early turn end caused me to leave a fair bit of artillery not dug in ...IF you aren't trying to advance, dig the artillery in AS SOON as it's in position. It will still support the attacks. DO NOT direct fire your artillery. It is much better to dig it in (or have it in tactical reserve if you plan to move after you fire).

(I'm not saying that you are direct firing ... just a reminder to everyone. Artillery in indirect support supports at half strength. So if you get it to support just three attacks, you've gained 50% in strength versus direct fire. I've often had artillery support upwards of 8 attacks. That means it provided FOUR times more firepower than in direct fire mode.)

GunnerC

19 Mar 04, 16:26

Thanks guys - a few comments from my side.

The situation is not good - he is going for my supply lines. The 3rd Gds Army is likely to be out of supply at the start of turn 5 (or soon thereafter). The 5th Grds Mech Corps will not be able to help - he is adjacent to their huge stack now and I still cannot move them as they have not been activated yet. Next turn he will throw artillery and attacks on the stack and the losses should be horrendous.

I believe such a stack as an initial deployment is a scenario design issue - what do you think ?

My attacks on the pocket have been small units on min losses limited, supported by direct fire artillery. A select number of attacks each combat round to maximise the impact of the artillery on particular hexes. I will look at digging in the artillery and using them more indiscriminately on attacks - though it will be a change in tactic from the above. In the past I have not often found half power artillery sufficient to 'dig out' units, I try and dig them out of 'F' or 'E' status and then hit them again in the same turn - much more losses that way.

If I get fewer than two combat rounds I consider it a disaster - I normally look for three.

In answer to WestPointer - the surrounded units were not dug in for one reason. Their position was very poor indeed, and they were doomed however hard I dug them in. They were also out of supply from the next turn, hence a proportion of losses on the current turn went back to the replacement pool - on turns after that they would be lost indefinitely. Given the Axis strength around them I took the decision to use them to attack, taking what I could with me and also building up the replacement pool. I suspect had I got my third combat round I would have dug them in - but a hypothetical consideration as the turn ended.

I agree that now is the time to hit the Rumanians in the South, also I can intensify the battle against the Italians in the North as the bulk of the force there are now active. I plan to use Little Saturn this turn and see its effects next turn. I think he soon then has a big decision to make - he will realise my TO's didn't include free use of Don forces - so if he tries to relieve the pocket he opens them up to assist elsewhere. interesting choice for him ...

Once more to the Front comrades ...

Foggy

19 Mar 04, 17:18

Actually - I think you're doing okay - he's going for a knockout kill. He's
going to have real supply problems soon and as your units activate - it's going to be flanking time esp. in the South!

CyberRanger

19 Mar 04, 18:15

I believe such a stack as an initial deployment is a scenario design issue - what do you think ?
...Yeah, one that really sucks. Playtesting never envisioned something like MikeJ's attack.

Hang in there. I can't really look at the file now ... but I'd recommend moving unit out of the way as much as possible. Consolidate to the nw and ne, regroup, and then hit back.

easy to say, right?!!?

Heinz57

20 Mar 04, 18:57

Deployment is definitely an issue -- South and Central deployments are in far worse positions in this regard...North would be relatively safe...except for 57th North.

Will look at the next file/turn as its posted. How many tactical rounds would you guess that he got in t4?

I agree 3 or more tac-rounds for us is an imperative. Occasionally we might get the rare 1-2 rounder, keep an eye on support levels. If you can get flank attacks from different formations on Int. Support -- attack from one on one round, the other the next -- you will get the "flank shot" bonus.

GunnerC

21 Mar 04, 03:01

Sorry - no maps - forgot to make a save file.

3 combat rounds helped somewhat - massive and careful use of the attack planner to make sure of this (slow work!).

Some further progress against the Italians (and Rumanians) in the North, and the attack front has started in the South. Main effort in the North planned for the next few turns as all the troops up there have woken up now.

Counter-attack against Ostrov has weakened the German troops there, with two strong mech units having established a bridgehead across the river (it won't last, but should take his best efforts to get rid of and will force him to commit troops).

Started putting in place an outer defensive line on the North of the pocket, as it may just be he is heading round to decide to attack the pocket from the North (still a couple of weak points there this turn though). I already have a basic outer defensive line on the West of the pocket.

It may well be though he's not trying to break into the pocket at all - susepct he doesn't want to let the Don force troops into the game. As a result I've delayed Little Saturn to keep him guessing what my last TO really is.

3 combat rounds against just about every perimeter hex of the pocket is causing him damage - with some Axis units 'evaping'. For the moment I'm happy having him on the full front rather than an expensive attack to push into the pocket as he has a longer line to man with a diminishing number of units.

Worst problem is the centre - where I think that despite a break-out counter attack my 3rd Guards army will be out of supply next turn.

I'll post a map when I get one.

GunnerC

21 Mar 04, 04:40

Guys,

Here is the latest status. I believe the Axis will be in China before very much longer.

He has an almost superhuman ability to achieve exactly what he needs. In this turn he -

- Eliminated my dug in mech units on the bridgehead near Ostrov
- Rolled up the Southern edge of 3rd Guards army, and destroyed a HQ unit I had on the super-river in an attempt to provide mobility (3rd Guards now out of supply as anticipated and effectively pretty much dead)
- Hit the 1st Guards Mech heavily (in their overstacked status) leaving them all with 33% readiness and very limited movement
- Continued his movement around the North of the Pocket
-Removed the potential break-through I had against the Italians in the North by eliminating some of the units I had there.

... and all whilst leaving the majority of his units still well dug-in at the end of the turn.

Losses are now 15-4, which means 20% of my force is dead (if I'm right in thinking it's 75 each out of the 150 VP's), and the 3rd Guards will follow soon.

Happy to receive suggestions before I get back to this later today (Mothers Day over here) , but suspect it's a bit of a dead duck. :dead:

laszlo.nemedi

21 Mar 04, 09:22

I think he will only encircle the Stalingrad pocket won't go inside the *** border (how unhistorical that units only stay in the pocket within the ***)...

He will kill every unit from the center to the north. And he has a chance...

OK, you should destroy every bridge on the super river and guard against the German engineers (better to sit in the destroyed bridge hex and after destroy it. (dig in ignore loss)...

But anyway it will be a hard game...

(Again I saw MikeJ superToawunhumanmaster movements... :dead:

laszlo.nemedi

21 Mar 04, 09:25

If you all agree we can present it to Palle how unrealistic if the Germans can encircle the Don front around Stalingrad pocket :nuts:

GunnerC

21 Mar 04, 10:36

If you all agree we can present it to Palle how unrealistic if the Germans can encircle the Don front around Stalingrad pocket :nuts:

I plan to send some notes to Pelle a little later after I see how things work out ...

Heinz57

21 Mar 04, 19:19

At this point, if you've taken Little Saturn one consideration would be to attack every single unit he has that you can reach with whatever you can reach it with as many times as possible. This is risky in that it could well leave your defenses exposed, attack with 2 thirds and keep one defensive if need be. He does not have the benefit of reinforcements so it is a matter of attrition. Attrition will weigh heavier on him than you, though you will have to compensate heavily for losses incurred already and in next turn.

Basically, take Little Saturn at the earliest opportunity -- it is worth more when there are more units available to fight.

Panzerpelle

23 Mar 04, 03:22

Yeah, one that really sucks. Playtesting never envisioned something like MikeJ's attack.

Hang in there. I can't really look at the file now ... but I'd recommend moving unit out of the way as much as possible. Consolidate to the nw and ne, regroup, and then hit back.

easy to say, right?!!?
Its not a comfort for you now...but I have changed the deployment in the coming versions...If you have any Qs pls feel free to ask...I will though watch my tongue...

GunnerC

23 Mar 04, 15:46

Panzerpelle -

Thanks for the changes in the next version. My major issues are

1. Overstacked units at the start of the game in various places (suspect the Germans in the pocket could wreak havoc on the encircling army stack in turn 2 if they wanted to - but not sure as I haven't tried it).

2. Units not activating for a number of turns by which time they are either under attack, out of supply, or all three.

I absolutely must say though - overall I think this is an excellent scenario with just a few teething problems. Many thanks.

Panzerpelle

24 Mar 04, 01:19

GunnerC

24 Mar 04, 16:29

OK,

This is embarassing :o . I'm not the best player in the world, but this is ridiculous :rolleyes: .

MikeJ continues to fail to have any adverse combat results whatsoever. :argh:

Here is the position at the start of my turn 6. Losses are 19-5 against. As you can see many of my forces are in re-org, or have limited movement having retreated. :whlchr:

He is North of the super river, my two armoured units having failed last turn to remove his 1-2 unit on the bridge after two separate joint attacks with limit losses.

His Italians (with limited Axis support) seem to have little trouble throwing my dug-in troops into disorganisation in the North front - removing any advances I had made. I have little doubt the appearance of the Axis reserves behind his lines in the South limits my ability to advance down there.

The situation is now so bad that next turn he will occupy the hex where my artillery reinforcements are scheduled to arrive, meaning they will stay off the map. :OHNO:

I have little doubt he will break out of (and into) the west of the pocket next turn. Note his armour on the West of the pocket in defence (and handy for attack), and the pile of troops ready to join from his main forces. Actually he could pretty easily join up from the North of the pocket as well - or both.

Unless anyone has any great ideas :hmmm: you may soon be hearing of the first Russian General committing suicide in his dug-out (overdose of vodka sounds like a good way to do it :drink: )

CyberRanger

24 Mar 04, 16:53

Geez ... I don't know what to say. I think what you are seeing is way outside the normal expected results. I can't understand how the Italians could be doing so well (among other items.) :(

laszlo.nemedi

25 Mar 04, 01:07

Bridge blowing where you can...
The next round maybe will be on the south...

(You could see my original post when the tourney was propageted, my only fear if I have to play MikeJ... :dead:

Tiberius

25 Mar 04, 09:11

Well let's just thank god that MikeJ didn't see fit to share his techniques with the rest of his team.

plutonico

25 Mar 04, 09:18

was terrible, but there are some suspect about how do this.with this result nazis will be in siberia in spring ;)

Heinz57

26 Mar 04, 14:21

MikeJ's been active teaching Digger his tactics, more around the pocket than elsewhere (it seems, so far). Only awaiting T4, Digger's turn around is like Molasses in winter. T2, he took out somewhere in the range of 22 brigades/divisions along the pocket.

Your situation here is definitely on the outer stretches of the imagination. The only thing I can advise is try to do the same back to him, probably a lot easier said than done. The bulk of your forces are still on board and Soviets have better replacement rate.

Ace in the whole, is the Army following on the heels of 1st PzA.

You will have them starting in reasonable supply in a safe zone. Get them close to the "safe border" one turn, and attack the next using the same tactics he's used on you. At least you will have full initiative there...possibly against fortified units, but not all of 1st PzA is there.

Foggy

26 Mar 04, 15:21

I believe he's also teaching Furocity - this ant trend is really annoying :o

CyberRanger

26 Mar 04, 15:43

I believe he's also teaching Furocity - this ant trend is really annoying :oIs that the min loss/limited attack using a small unit with a lot of artillery approach?

GunnerC

26 Mar 04, 15:50

I believe he's also teaching Furocity - this ant trend is really annoying :o

Interestingly MikeJ is recommending against ants. To quote from some e-mail advice he helpfully sent me...

If you only assault a hex with heavy loss tolerances when it's ready, you're not going to lose rounds often (and I'm assuming 2 tactical rounds per combat phase, non-shock as 'normal'). When that hex is ready could be in the first combat phase, or maybe the third or not at all in a turn. If you attack anyways, then the TOAW combat system is going to seem awfully random.
Sometimes I'll try to prep a hex all round (primarily, digging out the units - though it depends on the TO&Es) and if it's not dug out, I just don't make a heavy assault on it.

Maybe 50% of the time I retreat a hex, it's not because of a "heavy assault". It's a min or limited loss attack with strong units (but light loss tolerances) which is part of my usual process in preparing the hex for a major attack A pitfall of a supply drain type of attack (where you using the tiniest unit you can) is you rarely retreat a hex in the process of supply draining a hex. With a strong attacking force, but light loss tolerances, digging out is not only more effective, but the hex is weakened faster and, more importantly, you have a much better chance of having the hex retreat without the need for high loss tolerances which is the cause of 95% of the extra tactical rounds burned (I'm assuming anything over 2 is 'extra' since there's often that odd attack that just nails one extra round - especially when a retreat and disengagement happens, which is probably the result of the random number generation used to calculate combat).

If you pay attention to the TO&Es, the relative proficiency levels and the loss tolerances you can consistently avoid any round losses over 2 per phase.

The only thing in TOAW that is so random that you can't consistently beat the odds (so to speak) by paying attention to things like TO&Es, loss tolerances, relatively unit proficiencies, etc.. are the turn end checks, which differs from the round usage. That's fairly random, but most scenario designers use high proficiencies (70-90%) and with those kinds of proficiencies a turn end before 50% is pretty rare. 50% of the turn remaining is usually when I start switching from an active mode to digging units in and leaving a smattering of units mobile for continued operations.
Changes in some scenarios due to low force proficiency or shock effects and things like relative force organization.

Foggy

26 Mar 04, 15:56

If you check out my last turn - you'll see lots & lots of companies!

laszlo.nemedi

26 Mar 04, 17:18

GunnerC, thanks to share it...

plutonico

21 Apr 04, 06:56

why don´t post one file. we want to know how is going. (the game was very interesting, do´n´t worry if in not good for motherland)

GunnerC

22 Apr 04, 07:47

There was an enforced 3 week delay - 1 week from him, 2 from me. I have just got back and am struggling to send him a turn through (his e-mail is full probably). It is my turn 7 I am trying to send.

He is breaking through to the pocket to rescue Von Paulus, and my position is as weak as ever - he will be there in 1 or 2 turns (probably 1). The sole advantage that gives me is I can now move those troops freely - however rivers are more of a problem to me than him at the moment.

My tactic is to try and keep his front line enormously long and hence wear him down everyhere. I have not yet made much progress against the Italians or Rumanians, but I have made some, and I will look to steadily increase the pressure everywhere and see if his line snaps at some point.

My worry is that he rescues his HQ's then pulls everyone back West to a defensive line, at which point I will get the VP's for the locations around Stalingrad, but may find it hard in my deplted state to make much further significant progress elsewhere.

I'll post another file in a turn or so.

Does anyone know when he is likely to get significant replacements, and how effective they will be ?

CyberRanger

22 Apr 04, 08:16

.....

My tactic is to try and keep his front line enormously long and hence wear him down everyhere. I have not yet made much progress against the Italians or Rumanians, but I have made some, and I will look to steadily increase the pressure everywhere and see if his line snaps at some point.

To me, that sounds like a good plan at this point. You need to examine how you can try to get to a draw; much beyond that is probably unrealistic.

My worry is that he rescues his HQ's then pulls everyone back West to a defensive line, at which point I will get the VP's for the locations around Stalingrad, but may find it hard in my deplted state to make much further significant progress elsewhere.

That's exactly what I would do in his situation unless he wants to just see how hard he can push you. But, I think he'll see the potential danger in that and pull back. If he does keep pushing, maybe he'll find the Germans wear out after 40 turns of hard use.

For all of us, that's my biggest thought. Few games of this scenario have been played to the end (full 40 turns). If we keep our cool, my hope is we can really make progress in the end game.

Southern Dandy

22 Apr 04, 08:16

Does anyone know when he is likely to get significant replacements, and how effective they will be ?

Given that he opted for early release of 19th PzD and 1st PzA, he has little left for reinforcements. I believe that he'll get a division or two around turn 20, another one around turn 25, another one or two around turn 35-ish, and one on turn 40....I think!

You should check out this thread for accurate information on Axis reinforcements which was compiled before the shooting started. The info you're after is towards the end of the document, as I recall...

http://www.warfarehq.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5954

John

GunnerC

04 May 04, 16:15

Attached are two files, start and end of the turn.

As he has just broken through to the Kassel I planned for significant attacks across the whole line to try and keep the pressure up.

With careful planning, and reviewing the dialogues after the battles, none of my attacks (bloody though they were) used up more than 3 comnbat rounds.

Then my turn ended :cry: - end result, a lot of Axis units bounced out of being dug-in which I can't exploit. Also a lot of Soviet units left not dug in - some waiting for the second attack round (especially against the Italian artillery in the far North West).

I'll see how he does in the next turn - but I may be falling on my sword pretty soon.