Some Thoughts

[Furocity]

I was thinking if I was the Soviets, my objective would be:

1. Stop the Axis initial assault.
2. Gain the initiative and launch a major attack.

This seems obvious, but thinking like the enemy might give us some insight in how we can win.

With objective 1, to be safe, I would take the center option as the Soviets, that way I could respond either North or South. This option gives him flexibility of manuever. If the Axis launch south, my 1st object is to secure the bridge and ensure I can move in reinforcements. If the Axis launch North, then I can launch north easily and hit their flanks. If they launch center, then I would have forces to meet them immediately.

With objective 2, There are adequate forces to launch an attack north, and since the italians will not take orders, it is easy to circle and destroy. Launching Center is tough, more than likely run head first into the Axis offensive, so not a bad trade off. Could launch offensive south, and if the Axis did not deploy forces south, it is the most direct route to Rostav.

A lot depends on how many TO's we can play, I am hoping for at least 2.

Now as the Axis, lets look at Axis COA vs ECOA:

As I see it, there are 3 COA.
1. Attack North, destroy units.
2. Attack Center, relieve the pocket.
3. Attack South, relieve the pocket.

ECOA is dependant upon where they deploy 2nd Guard Army
1. North, and launch a concentrated offensive
2. Center, stop the Axis push and launch supporting attack North into Italians.
3. South, stop Axis, launch main effort south against Rumanians with a supporting attack in the North against the Italians.

The key as I see it is: taking the right COA, and hoping the Soviets does something opposite (far away as yours) for instance if the Soviets launch North, and the Axis launch South, time is the factor, it all depends on whether the Soviets can cause enough damage before the Axis can get to the pocket, so speed and time is the essence. As the Axis you have to get to the Pocket, secure it, resupply it around turn 5.

The one factor in the Axis favor is if we can get 1st PZ Army, defend Rostav with 2 divisions and send the other 3 into the fray (I would keep 1 in reserve about center, and send 2 divisions to the main effort or a launch a potential flank attack, depending on the situation).

Good Luck

[Bruce]

I agree that the most likely Soviet deployment is the central one. This will cause headaches for both Northern and Central Axis deployments. A scared player might have seen the weakness of the Southern flank and deployed there, but after the leaks they are probably more concerned about the Northern attack.

I still not sure about the 1st Pz Armee - are two divisions enough to cover the area in front of Rostov? I do like the idea of holding back one division in a central reserve and only committing two to the attack.

[MikeJ]

I agree that the most likely Soviet deployment is the central one. This will cause headaches for both Northern and Central Axis deployments. A scared player might have seen the weakness of the Southern flank and deployed there, but after the leaks they are probably more concerned about the Northern attack.

I don't see any solutions for this, so I'll just say bah - more for me to pocket! ;)


I still not sure about the 1st Pz Armee - are two divisions enough to cover the area in front of Rostov? I do like the idea of holding back one division in a central reserve and only committing two to the attack.

You could play it safe and leave three. That still gives you an extra panzer division over the other TO.

There's a delay of up to 5 turns for 1st panzer armee... unless I urgently need units at the front I'm going to keep 3 or maybe 4 around rostov and try to bait 44th army to leave the deployment zone. if it does, I'll destroy it as fast as possible. If they hide, I'll leave 2 divisions behind and send the other 3 off and maybe pull some junk infantry from the front and rail them back to Rostov. 44th army has a movement rate of 7, it can be encircled fairly easily if it leaves it's deployment zone.

If I can get my opponent to agree to 3 TOs I'm going with TO North, 1st Pz Armee and Thunderclap (unless I can't reach 6th army, in which case I'll opt for 19th Pz.

[MikeJ]

NOTE: If you choose TO North, make 100% sure you do NOT move any units next to the 1st Guards Army which is in reserve until turn 4 (1st Guards are the red background units right beside the Northern arm of your pincer).

You can move units which are deployed adjacent to them *away* from the unit, but do not move any unit next to it or it will release them early and you'll be in for a world of hurt. When 57th Pz deploys TO North, some units start next to them. Just move them backwards 1 hex (along the road) and you'll be okay.

[Becker]

just be the better player .


or read : strategy and the like by Becker 1999
already a bestseller in my village !

[MikeJ]

I got to thinking a TO North + Soviet TO Center would be beneficial. It puts 2nd Guards Army right in the middle of 5th Tank Army - which I'm encircling anyways.

It will however mean I will need to come in with a stronger force than I anticipated.... no problem.. I'll just drain the Rumanian/Italian fronts of anything German... any seroius gains by the Soviet player there are going to be irrelevant if I can destroy 5TA, 1 Tank Corps and 2nd Guards Army.

In effect, it's an even bigger gamble than before, but I think I can do it. So if the Soviet player goes TO Center, my game will likely be won or lost in the first 5-6 turns.

[Bruce]

Watch your TO's - Operation Thunderclap is the only one which lasts past turn one - if you don't take 19 Pz on the first turn, you're stuck with Thunderclap (sounds like some sort of disease you get from dirty toilet seats!)

[MikeJ]

Watch your TO's - Operation Thunderclap is the only one which lasts past turn one - if you don't take 19 Pz on the first turn, you're stuck with Thunderclap (sounds like some sort of disease you get from dirty toilet seats!)

Oh damn.

Didn't realize that.

Thunderclap gives you more useful forces I think, but it's a what-if since you might never make it to the pocket.

Maybe I'll just trigger 19 Pz early. I haven't received a response from my opponent yet so I get to glean all these handy insights from the rest of you ;).

[General Staff]

Hmmm. As I wait for Soviet T2 I got to thinking on this- maybe a little too late. As STAVKA I think I'd go for TO North (i.e. historical) plus I'd start blitzing through 46,12 with 7th Tank Corps where I won't wake sleeping Eyeties. Plus try for attrition/breakthroughs in Sovetskaya-Bolshin area. Essentially as Soviets I'd make this a game of chicken... "OK- you want Stalingrad- no problem. I'll trade you for Rostov".

My 46,13 is weak (only a 1-1 Engineer) and I forgot to dig in in the area... The nightmares I've been having!

[Furocity]

So far from what I seen from all the comments and the game I am playing, the Soviets are not using their number one asset: ARTY!

As the Soviets, he could hammer our lines for a few turns, mass infantry and armor behind it, then SMASH it. Once he achieved a decent breakthrough, at least 15-20 kilometers wide, push all he has through it.

To me it looks like for the most part the Soviets have piecemeal their attacks and spread it too thin.

Just an observation thus far.

[General Staff]

Exactly.

Having played Fortress Stalingrad 42 (Favre) as Axis, this approach is devastating. The units that are used here for the relief attempt are in that scenario just desperately needed for 'fire brigade' work. Forget about playing chicken- you're just 'delirious' the Soviets have the Stalingrad turkey to roast for Christmas...

And I think that's the conclusion von Manstein came to.