Thoughts on the appearence of POA2 graphics

[Don Maddox]

Guys I would like your opinion on something. I just finished up a "template" that I have made for myself that will greatly speed the process of creating the new symbols. This will also make it much easier for me to do the follow up set I plan to do. The plan (famous last words) is to have a summer, winter and desert set available to scenario authors. These would then become the defacto standard for POA2 non-topographic maps. I'm hoping that HPS will host all of these files when they are done.

Anyway, I've now reached a point where I have to make a decision. Up to this point I have been working hard to make the terrain in POA2 "relaistic" looking. What I mean is that I have been using an approach very similar to what you see in Combat Leader: Cross of Iron. The effect isn't quite as good as the POA2 graphics system is somewhat primitive compared to that title. What I have encountered is that it is hard to do a sysmbol set for this style in POA2. Why? Because the scale is different. CL:COI is like Steel Panthers and uses a very small scale (20 meters per hex?), while POA2 used 100 meters per hex. This means building, trees, and other stuff must be much smaller to appear realistic. Using the "realistic" approach I have discovered that it's hard to keep everything from looking like mud when zoomed out. I am now considering a rather radical change of direction. Instead of realistic terrain, I am of a mind to make the revised set look like a traditional wargame/boardgame. Take a look at the screens of VASL. This is what I have in mind.

Have many of you tried VASL or are familiar with ASL? What would you think of a POA2 version that looked very similar to ASL?

[tws71669]

Hi Don, I 've been wrestling with what maps look most appropriate in my own scenario ramblings and stumblings...
I am of the mind that VASL maps while effective to use ingame just don't keep to the spirit of the game in that it feels a little "sandboxy". But this is totally based on subjective bias.
I like the idea of as close to milspec topo as possible but I am not the guy doing all the work here- you are:p
Maybe VASL is a good place to start and then from there any refinements can happen over time. I like the most like topo approach but I know it may not be practicle.
Maybe the max zoom map can be just a topo overview not intended for actual tactical play... more of a snapshot? and you use the other zoom levels for your actual orders stuff...
Catch'ya later..
-T

[Gary]

Hi Don,

I tend to agree with T. I prefer to use topo maps but I fully understand your reasons for moving away from them. The idea of playing on maps to me, gives the game a command centre feel but this is very much my personal taste. Certainly given the choice between the POA2 tiles you have been working on and an ASL type I would chose the POA2 tiles. Perhaps a compromise could be a topo map at level 1 and POA2 tiles for levels 2 & 3.

Gary Bezant

[Don Maddox]

I guess you have to work with the topo map approach to see just how cumbersome and difficult it is to do. The topo maps have three very large disadvantages, which I see no way of getting around.

1. They're huge. Scott has stated that .jpg files may be something that we will get eventually, but that is probably at the bottom of the wish list. Even then, the jpg files I did for the Decisive Action maps weren't exactly small. The .bmp files are so large that I don't see how we can maintain a community of people who can create and share them. The bandwidth requirements would be prohibitive for any except broadband users.

2. When you create a map in ADC2, you "paint" the tiles (terrain) onto the maps hex by hex. POA2 and ADC2 use a system of layers to do this. As you paint these onto the map, the topographic image is slowly and completely covered up, so the map author can no longer see it by the time the primary terrain is added. Now you can keep turning off all the terrain to see underneath it, but that's a cumbersome way to work to say the least. What the original authors did was they worked with a special set of modified templates that had "holes" in them. These holes were transparent and allowed the designers to see the underlying topo image. When the map was complete, it was changed over to the default symbol set. This system makes map making a chore led directly to disadvantage #3.

3. Because of the way topo maps are made, the map author has a difficult time actually seeing the map while adding the secondary terrain. This has led to a great many errors on the original maps. If you open them up in ADC2 and toggle the terrain on and off, you can see that forests cover over entire villages, roads are several hexes off, lakes are in the wrong place, etc. The bottom line is that what the player sees on the topo map is frequently NOT what the underlying terrain actually is. That's a pretty huge disadvantage. The .bmp topo image means nothing in-and-of itself. It's just a picture, the terrain underneath is what the game sees and uses. That will never happen when using a regular symbol set for all three views.

Now I know that the topo images lend an "authentic" military feel to the simulation, but one seriously has to question how much they really add. :OHNO: It is my contention -- after doing extensive testing -- that they are actually doing more harm than good. They deceive players about what the underlying terrain actually is, and contour lines can be a non-intuitive way for many people to view a map. I used to teach land navigation and map reading in the Army, and many people just see "squiggly lines." Shaded hexes are admittedly don't have as much eye candy value. VASL doesn't look as realistic and "authentic" as a POA2 topo map, however, the symbols really are what the games engine sees and uses. If I can get the symbol set to look halfway decent at all three zoom modes, create maps files that are super small, and totally do away with the terrain issues that topo maps cause, then isn't that an acceptable trade off?

I hope it is. I'm putting a huge amount of work into these symbols and I really hope that players will accept the idea of using non-topographic maps in POA2. They're not quite as glamorous, but they are more accurate and solve most of the problems.

[tws71669]

Don, I think anything that accurately represents the Field of Battle is going to be a vast improvement over maps that posses the the errors you mentioned... I'm chomping at the bit here to get my copy of ADC2 and start taking a look too.

Some questions, can you run the topo map in Paint and ADC2 side by side so you can reference by the pixel# the details?

The only solution to the .bmp file size being huge is to convvert them to jpg and then reconvert them on the user's side which is another step upon a steep mountain of steps... but it does get over the file size.

It's kinda like mathematically computing every spot on a plot of land and then hand painting a new picture versus taking a snapshot with a camera and being done with it... so I see that the work from your end is cumbersome when a easier solution which keeps accuracy is probalby better until map making changes in the sim.... one day?

-T

[Don Maddox]

Don, I think anything that accurately represents the Field of Battle is going to be a vast improvement over maps that posses the the errors you mentioned... I'm chomping at the bit here to get my copy of ADC2 and start taking a look too.
Scott has implemented several changes in ADC2 that make POA2 map making a bit easier. It's still a chore, but it is better now.

Some questions, can you run the topo map in Paint and ADC2 side by side so you can reference by the pixel# the details?


Yes, you could, however, if one image were completely covered over by "grass" terrain, it makes it tough to visualize where something is from one map to the other. Plus, you would need a big monitor for this to be practicle as well.

The only solution to the .bmp file size being huge is to convvert them to jpg and then reconvert them on the user's side which is another step upon a steep mountain of steps... but it does get over the file size.


That is a good temporary work around to one of the three issues I mentioned.

It's kinda like mathematically computing every spot on a plot of land and then hand painting a new picture versus taking a snapshot with a camera and being done with it... so I see that the work from your end is cumbersome when a easier solution which keeps accuracy is probalby better until map making changes in the sim.... one day?


Making these symbol sets is difficult. If the hue and contrast isn't just right, then differences which as appear as quite suble when viewing a single hex symbol can really look bad when viewed as pat of a larger map. Everything has to go toghether just right, which is a very hard effect to achieve. I've been through about four revisions so far and I'm unhappy with all of them. The style I'm currently experimenting with is rather simplistic looking, but it does have the advantage of looking very "clean" at all zoom levels. The more detailed you make the symbols, the more "muddy" they look when zoomed out.

[MikeSinn]

Don,

I would actually prefer the symbol set you are creating over the use of topographical maps for game play purposes. While the topo maps are "pretty" to look at and make for nice screenshots, I have trouble with their functionality.

After 15+ years of wargaming, most of which has been the board-game type, reading "traditional" board-game displays just seems easier. Additionally, being able to combine both the elevation display with terrain layout is a huge plus for me.

Keep up the good work.

Thanks,
Mike

[Gary]

Don,

I have been giving a lot of thought to your comments. I must say that I am coming round to your way of thinking. The topo maps would be my first choice if they were more accurate. I did not appreciate that they were out by as much as you said. I have to agree with you that the tile maps are a better option. Especially if they reflect a more accurate image of the map area. Also I see that it will be easier to see terrain height changes. I am looking forward to your work on the map tiles being released.

Gary

[Don Maddox]

Thanks for the comments guys. After some heavy duty experimentation (that cost me about four days work), I have switched back to my earlier method. Although it would have been easier for me to make POA2 look very similar to ASL or VASL, I'm not sure you guys would have liked the simplistic feel of the maps and the generally bright colors. I made some test maps with them and it really did look like a boardgame!

The current set -- which is probably going to be pretty close to the final product -- will have a more relaistic feel than VASL, but it won't look as good as say Combat Leader: Cross of Iron. It will be somewhere in the middle.

[MKSheppard]

Don, can you at least put up a Beta of your map graphics? Topographic
maps just don't do it for me for POA2......

[tws71669]

Don,

can you give us some screens of the three zoom levels and wet our appetites...
I'm really eager to see how nice the new maps are gonna look.
-T
:D

[Don Maddox]

I'll have some screens within the next few days. Right now I'm tweaking the grass textures that are the base for everything else. Although they look okay as is, I'm keep making little modifications to get them a little better. I'm still not satisfied with them the way they are, but I plan on having that part done within a day or so.

After that, I have to work on the terraces and the rice paddies. These are probably the two most difficult symbols in the game to work with. The reason for that is I have to come up with a way to make them partially transparent in order to show the elevation terrain underneath. It's easy to do, but it's difficult to do well.

Next, I need to make some additional modifications to the water. I've already changed it once, but the new colors are a little too bright. This is another one that's a challenge to get "just right."

That will just about wrap it up for this set. After that, I will start on the desert set, which will be much easier. When that's done, I will come back and modify the set I'm currently with to make it a winter set.

All of these different sets will reside in separate folders in your POA2 directory. The ECX file that goes with each map tells the game which TEC and symbol set to use for each map. So a scenario designer can choose between multiple sets depending on the terrain being modelled.

I'll have some screens in the next few days.