POA2: Update: Alternate map symbol project

[Don Maddox]

I mentioned in another thread that, with Scott's advice, I have been working on revising the standard symbol set for POA2. This project has two major goals:

a) To allow elevations to be viewed "on-map" by using different shades for each elevation.

b) To allow quality non-topographic maps to be created at all three zoom levels.

The advantages of part two are obvious. The main one is that map files would be very small (no topographic .bmp to mess with), thus much larger maps would be practicle.

Progress is going well, but some of it is very tedious and time consuming labor. We're talking about a set of sybols that was around 2,800 strong when I started. Due to the way I am making many of the basic "Secondary Terrain" symbols transparent, I have to create some additional "cut" symbols to go with them. Very time consuming work, but the results are promising so far. Here are some smaples of the progress to date:

[andrew]

Don
This is great stuff. Its actually what I anticipated the game would look like. Please keep at it. If I or anyone can help please shout. :D
Andrew

[HoustonAerosFan]

WOW! Great job!

We'll get this game working right eventually! :D

[Combatengineer]

:surprise: Excellant work Don. Maps are the secret to keeping this game going, large maps!

John

[RedMike]

Very nice indeed, Don. Keep at it!

RedMike OUT

[tws71669]

Don, hats off to your efforts... let us know how we can help if you need it. without such work this game might be (to quote Sec. Rumsfeld) a "Long hard slog..."

:D

[HercMighty]

I agree with everyone here, looks great.

[Don Maddox]

Okay guys, here is a bit more information that some of you may find helpful. There is some good news and some bad news.

The bad news is that the revised map symbols will not be compatible with the maps that came with the game. This really should not be too much of an issue because those maps have topographic grid lines to depict elevation. Also, POA2 uses a fairly flexible system that allows the program to store multiple symbol sets and pull for the one that is needed based on the map author's choice. My goal here would be to have this symbol set get some type of "official" status when it is complete. Topographic type maps could use the default set and everything else could use the revised set.

The additional bad news is that it's taking me longer to do this than I originally estimated. There are litterally thousands of symbols in POA2 and I had to make significant changes to a large portion of them. I also was forced to add a large number of additional symbols. It's hard to explain, so let's just say the additional symbols ensure the maps look as good as the originals (or better).

The good news is that the set does appear to be working properly. It's simply taking me a long time to do it. I got over 1,500 symbols done today and I am going as fast as I can.

On a related note, map making may not be as hard for some of you as I orinially feared. It won't be easy, but it's not all that bad once you get the hang of it. If you stick to making maps where each hex has one basic type of terrain, it's fairly simple. POA2 includes a lot of "tiles" to fill in the edges and corners of hexes to make them look good. For the most part, these have no influence on the game, they just make the map look better. Take a look as some of the original scenarios up close. Nice huh? Do you see how some of the orchards and other terrain are stright on a side instead of filling in the whole hex? That effect is done with the use of small fillers that make the map look cool. You really don't need to get this detailed unless you want to. Maps that look similar to Panzer Campaigns, for instance, can be done fairly easily once you understand how ADC2 works.

Hang in there. We'll have some good maps before long!

[tws71669]

Don, what is this doing to the reletive sizes of these maps? have they shrunk from the huge files discussed earlier?
-T

[Combatengineer]

:hurray: Don,

Is the hard part the Symbol creation that you are currently wading through? After that is it just mastering ADC2 using your symbol set and then what ever POA2 takes?

[Don Maddox]

Don, what is this doing to the reletive sizes of these maps? have they shrunk from the huge files discussed earlier?
-T
POA2 .map files are not terribly large at all. Most of the ones included with the original game are 30-50 KB, which is very tiny. The problem was the .bmp topographic map files (in layman's terms, the pictures used for the fancy topographic maps), which were anywhere from 7-500MB.

This set will be designed for use with maps without topographic images. It could also be used with maps that include a topo image for zoom 1 and 2, but I would have to create a separate set without the new topo 1 and 2 symbols. 5 minutes work.

To answer your question, map files created this way will be very small, even if the map itself is very large. I'll have more screen shots soon.

[MKSheppard]

Excellent work, Don! You NEED to get on board with HPS so this can
become an "official" part of the next patch!

[Don Maddox]

:hurray: Don,

Is the hard part the Symbol creation that you are currently wading through? After that is it just mastering ADC2 using your symbol set and then what ever POA2 takes?
Correct. I'll try to explain this in simple terms.

The original POA2 symbol set had only one elevation that you see in normal mode. There are a separate set of symbols that that are shaded different colors depending on elevation, but these are only displayed if the "elevation" tab is selected in POA2. So you can either view elevation data or terrain, but not both (unless you count the little pink dots).

The actual terrain that you see on-map is a collection of similarly shaded green symbols. There is one for open, rough, rocky, plus a whole bunch of "cut" and "fill" types to enable a senario author to create fancy effects. Unfortunately, all of these are the same shade. To create elevations, I had to create the same sets in each seaparate elevation shade.

Now to do that outright would have meant a symbol set of 15,000 symbols! Way too labor intensive and probably too much for some computers to handle. Scott came up with an idea of using transparency to partially offset the problem. His method will does work, but it also involves me making about 1500 new symbols. The work isn't that difficult if you know how to use a graphic program, but it's very labor intensive and time consuming due to the inefficient method of adding new symbols in ADC2.

End result: the original symbol set had about 2500 symbols. The revised on with have about 3800 (give or take). Map create will be no harder than it was before, but now elevations will be clearly visible.

[HPS]

I’m really looking forward to seeing your new symbol sets. The previous “in progress” screen shot looked great, so I can only imagine how cool the finished maps will be. :cheeky:

-Scott

[Rocky]

:thumup::thumup::thumup:

Although I rather like the "real-world" maps, especially for larger games, this approach is more user-friendly, and superior for the kind of terrain analysis needed for smaller scenarios.

[Don Maddox]

Thanks for all the kind remarks guys. I've been making heavy use of Paint Shop Pro 7 and some other tools to optimize the way things appear. Here are a few more general notes on the status of the project that you may find interesting.

Crops, ploughed fields (there are several varieties) and rice paddies will probably not reflect elevation. Most maps have only a few of these scattered around in various places so it's not a big issue. I just can't find any practical way to implement it that looks good, although I do have an idea for rice paddies similar to what I did for terraces. I may be able to work something out for these, but crops are going to stay the way they are.

On the vast majority of maps it will look fine (in fact crops will look exactly like they look now), but on a map like Puschendorf, which is already very ugly at close zoom, it will still be ugly. Crops just look ugly in this game if you use too many of them and that's the way it is. Sorry. :eek:

The elevations look pretty good. I wish I could make them with a little more constrast between the different shades, but with twenty different elevations to model I have to be very subtle about it, else you get really light and dark colors at the extremes. That means that elevation 5 won't look terribly different than elevation 4 or 6, but it will be enough to clue you in that there is an elevation change. Taken as a whole, the overall effect is satisfactory.

Desert maps will indeed use a different symbol set. No big deal, Scott has set up the program to accept an unlimited number of sets. The map author simply stipulates which set is to be "pulled" by the program when the POA2 scenario starts and that's that. In fact, Scott has informed me that he would like to have many different sets available for map authors to use. You can even use "squares" instead of hexes if you prefer, although no set currently exists for that. I suspect most gamers will want hexes.

When I am done with the current sets, I will consider making a winter set as well as Scott has stated that he would like to have one. It shouldn’t be very hard for me to do.

I really think you guys are going to enjoy this as it's starting to look pretty good. Since I have the option of adding new terrain types while I'm at it, the temptation to do so is hard to resist! I haven't done it, although I did think about adding barb wire fences.

:banana:

[Don Maddox]

There is one other advantage about using these kind of maps that I forgot to mention in my earlier posts. It is very difficult to make maps using the topographic overlays. The reason is that you "paint" the terrain onto the map in layers, and as you apply it, it covers up the topographic map at the close zoom. This means you have to use a fairly cumbersome work around to get good results.

What is my point? The point is that if a map author isn't very very careful, there will be differences between the topographic image and what type of terrain is actually in the hex. Check it out for yourself. Open some of the existing scenarios and make a very detailed analysis of the terrain in a particulr area. Now zoom up close to the "hex view" and see if the terrain isn't somewhat different. Don't get me wrong, the original map authors did a great job, but it's really tough to make the topo map match what's actually in the hex.

That never happens when using non-topo maps. You see exactly the same thing at every zoom level, it just appears bigger or smaller as you zoom it.

[Don Maddox]

Progress is still underway. This is very very time consuming, but I'm getting "close." I decided a while back that I didn't like the default zoom ratio of the original style set. The default was 70 pixels per hex for zoom3, 20 pixels for zoom2 and 10 pixles for zoom1. To me, that meant that zoom2 wasn't of much more use than zoom1.

I have changed this to 70 pixels per hex for zoom3, 40 pixels for zoom2 and 10 pixles for zoom1. Now, zoom2 is a happy meduim between the other two extremes. I imagine this is the setting players will choose to use most of the time and it just looks better all around. :D

Here is another teaser. Bear in mind I resized this image to keep the file size small. This started life as a zoom2 shot. Let me know what you think.

I should also mention that this is the time for suggestions. I am fooling around with changing the way some of the fields look. Some of them just seem to be a little too "harsh" for my tastes.

[Jarhead]

Man That pic looks great!!!!!:cool: :cheeky: :D:coolban: Great job Mr. Don!!!! I just knew this game would be worth the investment. Just wish I had the time to contribute more to it.:mad: :cry:

[tws71669]

Don if they don't gibe you an honorary seat in the HPS offices it would be an injustice... WOW! Those kinds of maps are gonna do a LOT to boost the interest in this game. One of my friends looking over my shoulder just said "Hmmm. maybe I will buy it anyways..."

Later,
-T

[Combatengineer]

Snip
Let me know what you think.

I should also mention that this is the time for suggestions. I am fooling around with changing the way some of the fields look. Some of them just seem to be a little too "harsh" for my tastes.

Don't know how to say it other than the are nice, damn nice, to look at. Can't wait to play with them. Started working with basic ADC2 map making. Do we know if the basic tutorial on map making will go up. Not the symbol creation but how to use ADC2 to make maps with the symbols that your are so nicely producing for us. I am graphically challenged!

John

[HPS]

NICE!

I’d say it looks like you’ve got it pretty much figured out. :D

See ya,
-Scott

[Don Maddox]

Thanks for the comments guys.

This project is going to take a little longer to complete than I originally planned. Why? Because I'm a perfectionist and I'm not satisfied with simply tweaking the elevations. I've been adjusting some other things as I goes as well and it takes some time due to the large volume of symbols involved. I think the wait will be worth it.

[Combatengineer]

Thanks for the comments guys.

This project is going to take a little longer to complete than I originally planned. Why? Because I'm a perfectionist and I'm not satisfied with simply tweaking the elevations. I've been adjusting some other things as I goes as well and it takes some time due to the large volume of symbols involved. I think the wait will be worth it.

We have to wait for the game to be finished any way, we can all wait. :surprise:

[MKSheppard]

Any updates for us Don? This sounds like the perfect thing to go with the
newly released 2.01

[Don Maddox]

I'm not ignoring you guys so be patient. Several people have e-mailed me and asked to use the beta version. I can't do that right now. The reason is that the symbols are tied to the TEC and ECX files. Every time I move a symbol up or down on the list, or add/delete a symbol, it changes the files. If you tried to use a map that I created yesterday with the symbol set (as it was then), you would see a bunch of garbage on the screen because I have changed the order of the symbols.

Until I have the symbols in their final order with the exact names they will have, I won't be able to release them. Any maps made with a "beta" version would be useless so it's best if I don't release anything until it's done.

The good news is that I'm about 90% complete at this point. I rand into two major difficulties. First, doing the fields proved to be a major challenge. Second, the terraces and rice paddies were very hard to do. All of these are now done, except for the terraces. I'm still working that issue. I also experimenting with ways that I can integrate the desert and regular symbol set so that I only need to release a single set. saves everyone an extra download as well!

I plan on having the terraces done today (I hope), then I have quite a bit of tweaking to do on the zoom 1 and 2 sets. After that, I need to do the desert stuff (which shouldn't take too long). Then I'm finished. I'll try to post a screenshot soon. The reason i have not done so is because I have made some pretty radical changes in the last few weeks and I didn't want people to see the set, then see it again with totally different colors. The colors are mostly finished at this point.

[Charles McLellan]

Hi Don,<p>You are probably aware that symbol sets from other modules can be imported. That applies to both terrain and units. Terrain is a little picky because it has to be of the same size and hex orientation, but symbols can be of any size. You might want to browse the available sets at <a href="http://209.216.35.195./Game_Sets/Terrain%20and%20Map%20Samples/terrain_symbol_sets.htm">HPS's module library terrain sets</a>. You can also use scans, which really means pictures. So, any paint or picture program can also be used to make electronic maps of quality.

[Don Maddox]

Here's a sneak peak at a nice, swampy pond surrounded by trees. This image is a little rough. I just threw it together to show you what the new swamp and water terrain looks like.

[MikeSinn]

Don,

The latest sample looks great. Keep them coming :D

I do have what is probably a silly question (but that's never stopped me before)... Once your symbol set is complete, will users be able to modify the standard scenarios to the use your new set or would that require the purchase of ADC2?

The more I play the game the less I like working with the topographical maps. I consistently feel that I spend more time fighting the map to glean information than I do fighting the enemy for territory.:nuts:

Thanks
Mike

[Don Maddox]

No one needs to buy ADC2 to use maps made with my symbols with POA2. ADC2 is simply being used as a map editor. I am using it as a symbol editor as well, but no one else will need to do that once the set is complete. If you want to make maps for POA2, you will need to use ADC2 to do so, however, you would need to do that even if you were using the default symbol set as POA2 has no map editor of its own.

Here is how all of this works. POA2 has a directory called Symbol Sets. Inside this directory are separate folders which contain symbol sets for summer, winter, box-type symbols sets, etc. The ECX file that goes with each scenario tells POA2 which symbol set to use and which TEC file to use. POA2 can have multiple TEC files (terrain effects chart), and the scenario tells the program which one to use. A new TEC file will accompany my symbol set when it is released. The reason for that is because I renamed a few of the symbols to make things easier to find, added a few new symbols, and changed the order in which the symbols appear. The default TEC will not work with the new symbol set. My TEC will be identical to the old one, it will simply have some different names in it. This will be transparent to the end user.

When I am done with this it will be pretty simple for everyone to set up. Players will need to download a few files: a TEC file, revised symbol set files. That's it. The current TEC is called standard.TEC. I will name the new one alternate.TEC or something like that and it simply goes right into the same folder (very small download). The new symbol files will go into a new folder inside the symbol set directory (large download). That's all there is to it.

The ECX files that accompanies each map tells POA2 whether it should use the default symbol set or the revised one. It also tells the program which TEC to use. Map authors simply choose which symbol set they want to use when they first start a map, and ADC2 will do the rest.

Because I have made significant changes to the order of the symbols, I don't think there is any way to get the original maps to work with the revised set. The new symbols will become the standard for non-topographic maps made after the new set is released and will be officially hosted by HPS. I seriously doubt that anyone will attempt to make any other symbol sets. There are over 3,000 symbols in the default set so you can imagine how much work it has been for me to alter all these.

Using ADC2 to make really complex maps with a lot of different elevations takes some work, but it's really not that difficult once you understand what to do. It's just time consuming if you want to add all sorts of little details that make the maps look better. That's the key word: look. The vast majority of symbols in POA2 are merely cosmetic. They're little cuts and fills to make the roads and fields looks just so. You don't need to use all those if you don't want to. Map authors can stick to a very limited number of base symbols, which will yield a map with about the same level of detail as the average Panzer Campaigns map.

[Don Maddox]

The symbol set should be released sometime this week. I hope a few map and scenario authors will put it to work. :D

[MKSheppard]

Yahoooooooooo!

Thanks so much, Don!

[Don Maddox]

The updated symbol set is being reviewed at HPS. There was a small problem setting up the revised symbol TEC that goes with it, but as soon as that is sorted out it shouldn't be long. Stay tuned folks!

[Don Maddox]

The TEC issue seems to be resolved now and I sent all the updated files to Scott for additional review. Barring any flaws he may discover (I don't want to release it unless we know for sure everything is solid), I am hopeful the set will be available for download either today or tomorrow.

I have been putting the map editor through the wringer and so far everything seems to be working okay as far as I can tell. I believe this set is a big step forward, but there are still a few drawbacks. If you plan to make really "busy" maps on hilly terrain, the set will certainly do that, however, it's a time consuming process. On the other hand, you can create some really fantastic looking maps if you pay attention to detail and have the patience to see it through.

I have been messing around with a small "demo" map just to show you guys what the desert terrain looks like. Bear in mind, maps can look considerably better than this, I just threw this together in order to give you some ideas. The map is not historical, but is generally representative of the terrain to the SE of Nasiriyah (Iraq).

The download won't be as painful as I originally feared. The set zipped up rather nicely, so it weighs in at about 6MB. Not too bad.

[cbelva]

Don, This is outstanding. :love: Scott should knight you for this. :D Charles

[tws71669]

If you ever show up near my part o the world it's a free beer.:D

Don you have a lot of talent. This is really amazing.
-Tiberius

[Double Deuce]

Don, that map is awesome! Did you use ADC2 to make it? I am expecting my copy to arrive by Monday (am hoping today so I can play with it this weekend). Until POA-2 comes back in stock I guess I will just have to "fantasize" about what it might be like to play it for now. In the meantime I plan to spend much of my free time learning ADC2.

[Gary]

Ok you've convinced me tiles do look better than the topo maps, Great work Don


Gary

[Old&Slow]

Excellent ! :D

Thanks for the hard work.

[Don Maddox]

If you want to thank me for creating this, then the best way to do it is by creating some great maps and scenarios which make use of it. That's what is really going to energize the POA2 community. The more "activity" that people see going on with the system, the more interested they will become. As more players pick up the game the community should start to really come to life.

Scott has reviewed the set and everything seems fine. He did make a coupd of suggestions about my map building style and I will incorporate those into future versions. The plan (I think) is that HPS will host the revised symbols along with the other POA2 updates. We will host scenarios and maps in our usual scenario/map archive right here on Warfare HQ. That way map and scenario authors can just upload their own work and share it with everyone.

I don't think the desert sysmbols look quite as good as the "regular" sysmbols do, however, I don't think they look bad. I think people might be surprised at just how detailed you can get with the maps if you really want to. The maps creation process does seem a little confusing at first, but it really isn't that hard once you understand what's happening.

At one time I believe I remember some of you mentioning that you would like to see some "generic" maps that scenario authors could use. What specifically did you have in mind?

[tws71669]

Generic in my mind would mean the NTC... or the able archer grounds in Europe. I think the US and NATO both pretty much use those for a lot of the combined arms training these days.

Otherwise just some good ol' desert/woodland/mountanous stuff of your own imagination would be cool. I've even thought about converting and expanding on some of the steel panthers WAW maps I saved as PDF files.

-T