Do you think helicopters are too vulnerable?

[Don Maddox]

I've heard several gamers on this forum state that they have had helicopters shot down on a regular basis by light machine guns and vehicles. Do you think helicopters are too vulnerable right now, or is most of this due from simply using them in the wrong role?

Thoughts

[XRAY]

I think it could be a combination of both Don.

Keeping my helicopters alive over a city full SAM wielding Al Qaeda is nigh on impossible, if the missiles don’t get me the small arms are sure to.

How vulnerable are AH-IS Cobra’s (or any helicopter for that matter) in the real world? In the story Black Hawk down I understand it was RPG’s that brought down the helicopters, not the masses of small arms fire.

So perhaps small arm fire is too powerful in the simulation, maybe the one or two of the ATF players would care to comment on the vulnerability of helicopters to ground fire.

I think one of the contributors on one of your forums was an ex-crew chief on a Blackhawk.

[MikeSinn]

I've heard several gamers on this forum state that they have had helicopters shot down on a regular basis by light machine guns and vehicles. Do you think helicopters are too vulnerable right now, or is most of this due from simply using them in the wrong role?

Thoughts
I haven't developed a strong opinion on this yet. It appears that either helicopters are too vulnerable to small arms and LMGs or possiblely these weapons systems are simply too accurate and hence hit with more frequency than they should.

In any event, I haven't exactly been employing sound tactics with these units. More like.... Fly quickly that way.... Shoot something... Then blow-up :cheeky:

I'm still just trying to get a feel for the game and its systems.

[HercMighty]

I think some tweaking needs to be done as discussed in this thread.

I am still an advocate to the idea of a setting for weapons status either "tight" or "free" and our forces to react to enemy units shooting at them. I still do not understand why when especially a helicopter is shot at they do not shoot back. The enemy has given away their position and LOS and possibly to some degree FOW should be negated and our units should fire back. A lot of times my helicopters will be shot at and finally shot down in the 4th cycle. Shot some rounds back and have those terroists put their heads down.

[Combatengineer]

I am not sure on the low density combat/terrorist scenario have not played any of them yet. Just started Scenario 7 which has a large helo component.

I do know that this spring that a Army Aviation ATTK Bn (AH64) was beat up real bad. This was the battle that the Apache went down and the crew captured that had all the TV coverage. The entire Bn was pretty dented and almost combat ineffective. The main Iraqi weapon was vehical mounted Heavy and light machine guns, with some shouler fired missiles. They went in with out A-10 or F-16 support, SEAD went after the Heavy AA and bigger missile battery's and the little stuff ate them up.

This is all from news accounts and some lession's learned I have seen. It is making the entire Attack Aviation world relook a lot of tactics.

[Don Maddox]

I do know that this spring that a Army Aviation ATTK Bn (AH64) was beat up real bad. This was the battle that the Apache went down and the crew captured that had all the TV coverage. The entire Bn was pretty dented and almost combat ineffective. The main Iraqi weapon was vehicle mounted Heavy and light machine guns, with some shoulder fired missiles. They went in with out A-10 or F-16 support, SEAD went after the Heavy AA and bigger missile battery's and the little stuff ate them up.

You're talking about Task Force 11. I know because I was there.

The TFwas comprised of the 11th AHB, elements of the 227th and 7-159th. I was assigned to the task force for the duration of my six months in Iraq. This is still a sensitive subject, so I'm being extra cautious not to say anything that hasn't already been released to the media.

One of the TF's missions was to strike at Republican Guard forces around the Karbala Gap. Due to various reasons, only a portion of the TF participated in the attack. Whether it was simply opportunism or a planned ambush is a matter that can be debated, but be that as it may, the task force was shot up pretty badly once it arrived in the area.

Almost all the fire came from small arms and was very close range. Mostly AK's and such firing nearly overhead. The fire did not come from dedicated AA assets, which is lucky or none of our guys would have made it back! One aircraft was forced to land and both the aircraft and crew were captured.

Lessons learned? Many, but it bears mentioning that there were numerous elements that made the situation unique. For starters, this was a built up urban area. Such tactics (for the enemy) would not have been effective in other terrain. Second, any vehicles or heavy weapons that showed up would have been easily dealt with. The problem was with the small arms fire. It was coming from many different directions and was quite intense. There was no way to return fire without destroying half the town. Even still, all the aircraft but one managed to make it back.

I think one of the contributors on one of your forums was an ex-crew chief on a Blackhawk.

Yeah, me! I have 16 years on the UH-60. It's a great aircraft, but not invulnerable. The Black Hawk Down incident that someone referred to earlier was also a very unique situation and certainly far different than what dedicated attack assets could be expected to encounter. The Black Hawks in that battle were shot up because they were operating at less than 100 feet AGL and picking up and dropping off troops in urban terrain. A crew chief's worst nightmare! It's a totally different situation than the way an AH-64 Apache operates.

Attack helicopters usually operate low and slow. They get into position and snipe at their target from a safe distance. The enemy usually never even knows what hit them. It's sometimes referred to as a "drive by shooting." :devil: They are effective at fairly long range even during periods of limited visibility. I'm not sure that POA2 is giving the weapons platform its due credit. The system seems to be allowing ground troops to spot the aircraft as a given, while the aircraft has a very difficult time picking up ground targets. This would, in fact, seem to be the case if you think about it. Only it isn't in real life. It's usually the guys on the ground wondering where the hell the missiles are coming from.

I could be wrong about this because I have not run extensive tests on my own, nor do I know how other people are using helicopters in the game. The system may be making players pay - rightly so - for using them incorrectly. I was simply wondering what everyone else thought about it.

[XRAY]

Sorry Don, it was only after I posted that I thought it might be you.

I bet you could tell us ground hogs some hairy stories?

[tws71669]

I know during scenario ten, that I sat my marine helo's right on the hex where I was in a firefight with "unknown qty guns" and seceral platoons duking it out. The helos couldn't fire at a thing. The terrain was not urban but I can't remember what type it was, I would have to go back and look. As soon as I moved my helo out of the hex, it went down next phase. Afterwards I looked at the units on the map, it was an enemy rifle squad that I think took it out. Seems a little superhuman to me since I had my platoons in the same hex with them for almost 7 turns fighting away.

[meade95]

Agree with above posts in that Helicopters do tend to be shot down very easily....and I also can't get them to "engage" when they certainly would in real-life scenario's...

I do think this should be looked into (especially the lack of engaging ability)....

[Ivan Rapkinov]

HPS has a history of making helos too vulnerable :D
(I still remember the flak about SB:Vietnam)

for what it;s worth, I haven't had problems with my helos getting swatted - then again, they haven't shot too much either.

not sure if it's a tactics issue, or I've been real lucky. (as a Squad Battle veteran I tend to nurse my helos as much as possible, and end the turn with them hiding. I've noticed them being taken down by AK fire though, which isn't unheard of.

tis a game with rules - and probabilities - maybe the pK for some weapons against air targets is too high.

[Old&Slow]

I`m still deciphering the interface, but in Scenario 10 it seems the Helos can`t "see" the BMP`s and Inf. even when on top of, or next to them and taking fire, since the targets don`t show up in the Targeting Window.

I`ve played around with different speeds and altitudes for them and it seems you can affect their surviveability through that, as well as using terrain to mask their movements. ( thats Good ! ) having said that when I did at last get them to fire on the 6 M-240`s they fired one 10 round 20mm burst taking out one .. :crosseye: which seemed a little weak to me. Perhaps a better weapon selection ? In all it doesn`t seem to arguer well for their use in Tank Heavy engagement Scenarios....

The problem is, with the general game play issues and bugs it`s hard to know if the Helos ( and other things ) are working right, need fine tuning by Scott, or we lack understanding on how to micro-manage them ( which Scott said we didn`t need to , or should do as the TF C.O. :confused: )

If the Helos game use are covered in detail in the manual I couldn`t find it...

It would be nice nice if someone from HPS, who knows Gameplay , as opposed to Scott who is dealing with coding issues, could put in a regular appearance here to support the the game and help with these issues so we don`t have to speculate among ourselves about things.

Where`s Smith or Kincaid or Lapkoff ??? or for that matter all the HPS guys like Lee, Rich, Gregg, etc, who support the PzC games so fast on other forums...don`t they like Modern Wargames ?????? :(

[Old&Slow]

I know during scenario ten, that I sat my marine helo's right on the hex where I was in a firefight with "unknown qty guns" and seceral platoons duking it out. The helos couldn't fire at a thing. The terrain was not urban but I can't remember what type it was, I would have to go back and look. As soon as I moved my helo out of the hex, it went down next phase. Afterwards I looked at the units on the map, it was an enemy rifle squad that I think took it out. Seems a little superhuman to me since I had my platoons in the same hex with them for almost 7 turns fighting away.


Do you really mean scenario 10, if so how did you get the Marines to unload out of the AAV7A`s ??? :surprise:

[Don Maddox]

I just sent Scott a lengthy email with my concerns about helicopters and how they are currently working in the game. As soon as I hear something back I will post it here.

[tws71669]

The only succesfull way I managed to get units to unload was to accept all the default movement orders at the very start of the scn. and playing with compress multiunits off. I was able to issue some units movement orders and all units unload orders but only a few really unloaded the rest froze at unload while I moved my others a scant few hexes inland to begin engaging. It was scn. 10 operation seahorse.

[MikeSinn]

I created a simple scenerio to test helicopter effectiveness and vulnerability. I have attached a copy of that scenerio below. Just load as a saved game (I saved it at the beginning of turn 1) It pits a AH-64 battalion against an Iraqi tank battalion in open desert.

Below are my initial findings after an hour or so of testing.

Scenerio Creation Bugs:
The TOE for Iraqi units appear to have several problems. First, the Inf company organization is composed solely of ADA units (SA-16 to be exact) Second, the company command units for the tank battalion are correctly composed of T-72M units. The subordinate units however are composed only of T-90s.

Game Play Issues:

LOS and unit spotting for the AH-64s doesn't appear to be a problem. If the units are left in place for a turn or two, they begin finding and identifying various units on the map.
If no orders are issued during the first turn, the AH-64s will fire 24 - 32 Hellfires at various "unidentified" targets. Seems like a waste to me. I would think that these units should be much more selective in their targeting.
During turn two, after identifying 4 - 5 tank platoons. I targeted each of these units with Hellfires. This translated to 36 - 42 hellfire shots. The problem is that not one ever hit a target. In fact, it appears there may be a bug with Hellfires. Unlike other ATGMs which have a fire phase, an in flight phase and a hit resolution phase, hellfires only seem to have a fire phase and an in flight phase. There doesn't appear to be any DF resolution for Hellfires. It appears that these missiles just vanish into thin air.
If any copter came within 2 Km of a tank, it would almost certainly be shot down by machine gun fire.
I would be very interested in hear what experiences other people have with this test.

Thanks,
Mike

[tws71669]

These are the combat reports I recvd. half way through a test scenario I made... if these values are correct, we have some extreme sharpshooting happening.

Read for yourselves and tell me if you think these are a little to lethal both in range and damage. The AK taking out a blackhawk at 400 some meters really got me...

COMBAT ACTION REPORT TURN:1
_________________________________________________
<PULSE:1>
Artillery Fire:
Missile Launches:
Firing Unit: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:2082
Target: 3rd CIS ATGW Platoon Loc:5366
Range: 3113m
Round: 1
Round is in flight
Round: 2
Round is in flight
Round: 3
Round is in flight
Round: 4
Round is in flight
Round: 5
Round is in flight
Round: 6
Round is in flight
Firing Unit: 2 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:2083
Target: 3rd CIS ATGW Platoon Loc:5366
Range: 3061m
Round: 1
Round is in flight
Round: 2
Round is in flight
Round: 3
Round is in flight
Round: 4
Round is in flight
Round: 5
Round is in flight
Round: 6
Round is in flight
Direct Fire:
Firing Unit: 4th CIS EW Platoon Loc:1703
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 30mm 2A72 Coax Cannon Ammo: AP(HE) 30mm Gnd/Wpn +
Target: 2 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:2083
Range: 1631m
Round: 1
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 88; Damage: 96; Suprn: 18
Target: Destroyed
Wreckage exists
No other effects
Firing Unit: 2nd CIS Motor Rifle Squad-3 Loc:2991
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 7.62 mm PKT Coax Machine Gun Ammo: M1943 7.62mm, Ball FMJ
Target: 3 x OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. All Moving. Face: S, SE. Loc: Offmap
Range: 2262m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Firing Unit: 2nd CIS Motor Rifle Squad-3 Loc:2697
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 7.62 mm PKT Coax Machine Gun Ammo: M1943 7.62mm, Ball FMJ
Target: 3 x OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. All Moving. Face: S, SE. Loc: Offmap
Range: 2643m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Firing Unit: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. All Moving. Face: S. Loc: Offmap
Target: C CIS Motor Rifle Company (Bde) Loc:2793
Range: 2632m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 2
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 3
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 4
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 5
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 6
Misses Target
No effects
Air Missions:
Movement/Close Combat:
En-Route Munitions:
Environmental/Other:

<PULSE:2>
Artillery Fire:
Missile Launches:
Direct Fire:
Firing Unit: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. Stationary. Face: S. Loc: Offmap
Target: C CIS Motor Rifle Company (Bde) Loc:2793
Range: 2632m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 2
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 3
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 4
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 5
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 6
Misses Target
No effects
Firing Unit: 2nd CIS Motor Rifle Squad-3 Loc:716
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 7.62 mm PKT Coax Machine Gun Ammo: M1943 7.62mm, Ball FMJ
Target: 2 x UH-60L BLACKHAWK. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:1584
Range: 2457m
Round: 1
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 6; Damage: 6; Suprn: 1
Target: not damaged
Firing Unit: 2nd CIS Motor Rifle Squad-3 Loc:2992
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 7.62 mm PKT Coax Machine Gun Ammo: M1943 7.62mm, Ball FMJ
Target: 3 x OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. All Moving. Face: S, SE. Loc: Offmap
Range: 2362m
Round: 1
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 9; Damage: 9; Suprn: 1
Target: not damaged
Firing Unit: 1st CIS Motor Rifle Squad-3 Loc:2398
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 30mm 2A72 Coax Cannon Ammo: AP(HE) 30mm Gnd/Wpn +
Target: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. Stationary. Face: E. Loc:2083
Range: 1766m
Round: 1
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 88; Damage: 96; Suprn: 1
Target: Destroyed
Wreckage exists
No other effects
Firing Unit: 1st CIS Motor Rifle Squad-3 Loc:716
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 30mm 2A72 Coax Cannon Ammo: AP(HE) 30mm Gnd/Wpn +
Target: 1 x OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. All Moving. Face: . Loc:1105
Range: 769m
Round: 1
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 96; Damage: 98; Suprn: 18
Target: Destroyed
Wreckage exists
No other effects
Firing Unit: 3rd CIS Motor Rifle Squad-3 Loc:2697
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 7.62 mm PKT Coax Machine Gun Ammo: M1943 7.62mm, Ball FMJ
Target: 1 x OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:1391
Range: 2210m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Firing Unit: 2nd CIS Motor Rifle Platoon-3 Loc:716
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 7.62 mm PKT Coax Machine Gun Ammo: M1943 7.62mm, Ball FMJ
Target: 3 x OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. All Moving. Face: SE, E. Loc:1390
Range: 2028m
Round: 1
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 9; Damage: 9; Suprn: 1
Target: not damaged
Firing Unit: 1st CIS Motor Rifle Squad-3 Loc:2993
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 7.62 mm PKT Coax Machine Gun Ammo: M1943 7.62mm, Ball FMJ
Target: 2 x UH-60L BLACKHAWK. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:1584
Range: 2558m
Round: 1
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 6; Damage: 6; Suprn: 1
Target: not damaged
Air Missions:
Movement/Close Combat:
En-Route Munitions:
Environmental/Other:

<PULSE:3>
Artillery Fire:
Missile Launches:
Firing Unit: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. Stationary. Face: E. Loc:2082
Target: 3rd CIS ATGW Platoon Loc:5366
Range: 3113m
Round: 1
Round is in flight
Round: 2
Round is in flight
Direct Fire:
Firing Unit: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. Stationary. Face: S. Loc: Offmap
Target: C CIS Motor Rifle Company (Bde) Loc:2793
Range: 2632m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 2
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 0; Damage: 0; Suprn: 1
Target: not damaged
Round: 3
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 4
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 5
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 6
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 0; Damage: 0; Suprn: 1
Target: not damaged
Firing Unit: 2nd CIS Motor Rifle Squad-3 Loc:2697
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 7.62 mm PKT Coax Machine Gun Ammo: M1943 7.62mm, Ball FMJ
Target: 3 x OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. All Moving. Face: S, SE. Loc: Offmap
Range: 2643m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Firing Unit: 2nd CIS Motor Rifle Squad-3 Loc:2991
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 7.62 mm PKT Coax Machine Gun Ammo: M1943 7.62mm, Ball FMJ
Target: 3 x OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. All Moving. Face: S, SE. Loc: Offmap
Range: 2262m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Firing Unit: C CIS Motor Rifle Company (Bde) Loc:2793
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 30mm 2A72 Coax Cannon Ammo: AP(HE) 30mm Gnd/Wpn +
Target: 3 x OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. All Moving. Face: SE, E. Loc:1390
Range: 2035m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Air Missions:
Movement/Close Combat:
En-Route Munitions:
Environmental/Other:

<PULSE:4>
Artillery Fire:
Missile Launches:
Direct Fire:
Firing Unit: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. Stationary. Face: S. Loc: Offmap
Target: C CIS Motor Rifle Company (Bde) Loc:2793
Range: 2632m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 2
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 3
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 4
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 5
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 6
Misses Target
No effects
Firing Unit: 3rd CIS Motor Rifle Squad-3 Loc:2697
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 7.62 mm PKT Coax Machine Gun Ammo: M1943 7.62mm, Ball FMJ
Target: 1 x OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:1391
Range: 2210m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Firing Unit: 2nd CIS Motor Rifle Platoon-3 Loc:716
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 7.62 mm PKT Coax Machine Gun Ammo: M1943 7.62mm, Ball FMJ
Target: 3 x OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. All Moving. Face: SE, E. Loc:1390
Range: 2028m
Round: 1
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 9; Damage: 9; Suprn: 0
Target: not damaged
Firing Unit: 1st CIS Motor Rifle Squad-3 Loc:2993
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 7.62 mm PKT Coax Machine Gun Ammo: M1943 7.62mm, Ball FMJ
Target: 2 x UH-60L BLACKHAWK. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:1584
Range: 2558m
Round: 1
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 6; Damage: 6; Suprn: 1
Target: not damaged
Firing Unit: 2nd CIS Motor Rifle Squad-3 Loc:716
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 7.62 mm PKT Coax Machine Gun Ammo: M1943 7.62mm, Ball FMJ
Target: 2 x UH-60L BLACKHAWK. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:1584
Range: 2457m
Round: 1
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 6; Damage: 6; Suprn: 1
Target: not damaged
Firing Unit: 2nd CIS Motor Rifle Squad-3 Loc:2992
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 7.62 mm PKT Coax Machine Gun Ammo: M1943 7.62mm, Ball FMJ
Target: 3 x OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. All Moving. Face: S, SE. Loc: Offmap
Range: 2362m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Air Missions:
Movement/Close Combat:
En-Route Munitions:
Environmental/Other:

Combat Phase Summary
Player: 1 United States
Total Firing Units:8
Total Rounds Fired:38
Total Hits::2
Total Kills:0

Player: 2 CIS
Total Firing Units:17
Total Rounds Fired:18
Total Hits::10
Total Kills:3

[Combat Report Complete]
COMBAT ACTION REPORT TURN:2
_________________________________________________
<PULSE:1>
Artillery Fire:
Missile Launches:
Direct Fire:
Firing Unit: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. Stationary. Face: S. Loc: Offmap
Target: C CIS Motor Rifle Company (Bde) Loc:2793
Range: 2632m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 2
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 3
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 4
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 5
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 6
Misses Target
No effects
Firing Unit: 2nd CIS Motor Rifle Squad-3 Loc:2697
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 7.62 mm PKT Coax Machine Gun Ammo: M1943 7.62mm, Ball FMJ
Target: 3 x OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. All Moving. Face: S, SE. Loc: Offmap
Range: 2643m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Firing Unit: 2nd CIS Motor Rifle Squad-3 Loc:2991
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 7.62mm PKT Machine Gun Ammo: M1943 7.62mm, Ball FMJ
Target: 3 x OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. All Moving. Face: S, SE. Loc: Offmap
Range: 2262m
Round: 1
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 9; Damage: 9; Suprn: 1
Target: not damaged
Firing Unit: 3rd CIS Motor Rifle Squad-3 Loc:2693
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 30mm 2A72 Coax Cannon Ammo: AP(HE) 30mm Gnd/Wpn +
Target: 2 x UH-60L BLACKHAWK. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:1584
Range: 2230m
Round: 1
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 95; Damage: 96; Suprn: 18
Target: Destroyed
Wreckage exists
No other effects
Firing Unit: C CIS Motor Rifle Company (Bde) Loc:2793
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 30mm 2A72 Coax Cannon Ammo: AP(HE) 30mm Gnd/Wpn +
Target: 3 x OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. All Moving. Face: SE, E. Loc:1390
Range: 2035m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Air Missions:
Movement/Close Combat:
En-Route Munitions:
Environmental/Other:

<PULSE:2>
Artillery Fire:
Missile Launches:
Direct Fire:
Firing Unit: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. All Moving. Face: SE. Loc:1386
Target: C CIS Motor Rifle Company (Bde) Loc:2793
Range: 2380m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 2
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 3
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 4
Misses Target
No effects
Firing Unit: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:2094
Target: 2nd CIS Grenade Launcher Platoon-1 Loc:5367
Range: 2696m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 2
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 3
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 4
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 5
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 6
Misses Target
No effects
Firing Unit: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:2092
Target: 3rd CIS ATGW Platoon Loc:5366
Range: 2718m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 2
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 3
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 4
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 5
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 6
Misses Target
No effects
Air Missions:
Movement/Close Combat:
En-Route Munitions:
Environmental/Other:

<PULSE:3>
Artillery Fire:
Missile Launches:
Direct Fire:
Firing Unit: 4th CIS Grenade Launcher Platoon Loc:2400
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 30mm AGS-17 Auto Grenade Lnchr Ammo: 7P9M HE-Frag (AGS17) 30mm
Target: 2 x OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:1408
Range: 824m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 2
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 3
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 97; Damage: 98; Suprn: 5
Target: Destroyed
Wreckage exists
No other effects
Round: 4
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 95; Damage: 97; Suprn: 5
Target: Destroyed
Wreckage exists
No other effects
Round: 5
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 95; Damage: 98; Suprn: 5
Target:Damaged
Firing Unit: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. All Moving. Face: SE. Loc:1902
Target: 3rd CIS ATGW Platoon Loc:5366
Range: 2804m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 2
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 3
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 4
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 5
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 6
Misses Target
No effects
Firing Unit: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:2098
Target: 2nd CIS Grenade Launcher Platoon-1 Loc:5367
Range: 2644m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 2
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 3
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 4
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 5
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 6
Misses Target
No effects
Firing Unit: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:1785
Target: C CIS Motor Rifle Company (Bde) Loc:2793
Range: 1969m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 2
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 3
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 0; Damage: 0; Suprn: 1
Target: not damaged
Round: 4
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 5
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 6
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 0; Damage: 0; Suprn: 1
Target: not damaged
Round: 7
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 8
Misses Target
No effects
Firing Unit: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:2096
Target: 3rd CIS ATGW Platoon Loc:5366
Range: 2651m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 2
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 3
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 4
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 5
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 6
Misses Target
No effects
Firing Unit: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:2004
Target: 3rd CIS ATGW Platoon Loc:5366
Range: 2749m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 2
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 3
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 4
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 5
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 6
Misses Target
No effects
Air Missions:
Movement/Close Combat:
En-Route Munitions:
Environmental/Other:

<PULSE:4>
Artillery Fire:
Missile Launches:
Direct Fire:
Firing Unit: 3rd CIS Motor Rifle Platoon-1 Loc:1811
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 5.45mm AK-74 Assault Rifle Ammo: 5.45 x 39mm
Target: 1 x UH-60L BLACKHAWK. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:1611
Range: 256m
Round: 1
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 6; Damage: 6; Suprn: 0
Target: not damaged
Round: 2
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 6; Damage: 6; Suprn: 0
Target: Destroyed
Wreckage exists
No other effects
Firing Unit: 1st CIS Motor Rifle Platoon-1 Loc:2399
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 5.45mm AK-74 Assault Rifle Ammo: 5.45 x 39mm
Target: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:2101
Range: 245m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 2
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 0; Damage: 0; Suprn: 1
Firing Unit: 3rd CIS Motor Rifle Squad-1 Loc:2399
Fire Grp: 0 Trg No: 0 No Rnds Per Wpn: 1
Wpn: 5.45mm AK-74 Assault Rifle Ammo: 5.45 x 39mm
Target: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:2101
Range: 245m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Firing Unit: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:1885
Target: C CIS Motor Rifle Company (Bde) Loc:2793
Range: 1800m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 2
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 3
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 4
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 0; Damage: 0; Suprn: 1
Target: not damaged
Round: 5
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 6
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 0; Damage: 0; Suprn: 1
Target: not damaged
Round: 7
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 8
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 0; Damage: 0; Suprn: 1
Target: not damaged
Round: 9
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 10
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 11
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 0; Damage: 0; Suprn: 1
Target: not damaged
Round: 12
Direct Hit
Projections: Kill: 0; Damage: 0; Suprn: 1
Target: not damaged
Round: 13
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 14
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 15
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 16
Misses Target
No effects
Firing Unit: 1 x AH-64D APACHE/LONGBOW. All Moving. Face: E. Loc:2099
Target: 3rd CIS ATGW Platoon Loc:5366
Range: 2640m
Round: 1
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 2
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 3
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 4
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 5
Misses Target
No effects
Round: 6
Misses Target
No effects
Air Missions:
Movement/Close Combat:
En-Route Munitions:
Environmental/Other:

Combat Phase Summary
Player: 1 United States
Total Firing Units:10
Total Rounds Fired:76
Total Hits::7
Total Kills:0

Player: 2 CIS
Total Firing Units:9
Total Rounds Fired:14
Total Hits::8
Total Kills:4

[Combat Report Complete]

[Old&Slow]

What weapons were the AH-64`s using in the firing phases ?

Is the 4th. CIS EW platoon an Electronic Warfare unit ? If so could account for the dismal performance of the Apaches ? :surprise:

[MikeSinn]

What weapons were the AH-64`s using in the firing phases ?
My guess would be Hellfires due to the "round in flight" messages. TWS's combat log also seems to show that out of all the Hellfires fired, I didn't see a single kill. That just seems wrong.:rolleyes:

[Old&Slow]

My guess would be Hellfires due to the "round in flight" messages. TWS's combat log also seems to show that out of all the Hellfires fired, I didn't see a single kill. That just seems wrong.:rolleyes:

I agree, I edited my post while you were posting.

[HPS]

Concerning the helicopters, I absolutely agree it doesn’t sound right. I’ll have to look into it further, but I think this problem may boil down at least partially to database values - the sighting and survivability vales may be too low. Although so many things go into it all... it could be almost any number of things (and probably several overlapping things). The only caveat is I’m trying to fix crash bugs first, so this will have to go into the hopper for a little while.

-Scott

[Don Maddox]

No, I don't think that's right. Each pulse is broken down into separate "stages," one of which is Missiles. Look at the beginning of each combat pulse; you will see a heading that says missiles. These attacks are carried out prior to regular fire, which is listed as Direct Fire. From looking at this I can't tell if they were missile launches or not, but I don't think so. When I have seen Hellfires launched in the past, they actually were listed as a Hellfire launch in the display.

I have set up a test scenario of my own which is quite similar, and I have yet to observe a single missile launch. The Apaches are using their 30mm guns only. I have also not seen them use rockets, which Apaches carry in most situations.

In the test scenario I have set up, the Apaches seem to be having all kinds of problems spotting enemy units while ground units have no problem whatsoever spotting and engaging them.

[meade95]

I am having the same "type" results with helicopter (Apaches only firing guns)....Helicopters being shot down way to easily.....Helicopters not hitting any targets with hellfire missles, ect...

I simply do not understand how this game was released in any way to the airforce.....I understand this is a civilian version....but one would think most of the "guts" would have to be somewhat the same....with only the platform of the game being adjusted a little....(and mainly just the database / editing section...I would think..)

Having problems with different weapon systmes does not even mention the problems with not being able to use the Database TOE editor itself....to create new units....adjust nationality values, etc...

UGH.....guess I'm just blowing off some steam.....I know Scott and HPS seem to be working hard.....I'll leave it at that....I wish them the best...

[tws71669]

So it seems, just to encapsulate it.... as of right now, Helos do not spot ground units. Do not engage units with all weapons. Do not have very good kill probability, and seem to freeze in place at odd times.
They are likely to be spotted easily by ground units and are very fragile when taking fire to the point where a single bullet from an ak-74 can bring the bird down from over two football fields away.

Is there anything I missed?

:o :o :o

[Don Maddox]

I've been messing with the helicopter test scenario that was attached earlier. For starters, I can see that the Apaches fire off all of their Hellfire missiles at once. They just seem to vanish and never hit anything. Even if they fire a missile or two and miss, they shouldn't be firing off all their missiles at once. Essentially, they seem to be shooting missiles like 30mm rounds!

I also noticed something about movement: if helicopters start from a full hover (as they do in this scenario) you will need to give them "speed" commands prior to issuing movement orders or they will just sit there. This isn't really a bug, just an interface issue to be aware of.

[Gregory Smith]

[QUOTE=Ivan Rapkinov]HPS has a history of making helos too vulnerable :D
(I still remember the flak about SB:Vietnam)

LOL!
Well maybe that's so.....we reviewed the vulnerability factor for the Helo's and it was, in fact, set extremely low.....so we have adjusted them. The new database has the corrected values.

Also, please realize....that database tooks several man years to develop and is not beyond error. We made SEVERAL scrubbing passes on it, but something as simple as 3 A.M. data entry error can happen, along with other simple errors and/or misjudgements. With about 15,000 values to look at it gets pretty old pretty quick on one's eyes :) We strongly feel it's in extremely good shape overall but are open to listening about any values you might find as strange.

Thanks,
Greg
HPS Sims

[tws71669]

[QUOTE=Ivan Rapkinov]HPS has a history of making helos too vulnerable :D
(I still remember the flak about SB:Vietnam)

LOL!
Well maybe that's so.....we reviewed the vulnerability factor for the Helo's and it was, in fact, set extremely low.....so we have adjusted them. The new database has the corrected values.

Also, please realize....that database tooks several man years to develop and is not beyond error. We made SEVERAL scrubbing passes on it, but something as simple as 3 A.M. data entry error can happen, along with other simple errors and/or misjudgements. With about 15,000 values to look at it gets pretty old pretty quick on one's eyes :) We strongly feel it's in extremely good shape overall but are open to listening about any values you might find as strange.

Thanks,
Greg
HPS Sims
yeeeesh, I still remember the HARPOON II database... I think the comunity nearly totally rewrote that thing over time. Now the original DB's aren't even used anymore because of all the goofs, yes it gets old fast...:p