Wintergewitter Tournament Thread [Archive]

Mantis

13 Feb 04, 21:15

At 5.15 on the morning of Dec 12th, 1942, the panzers of 57th Panzerkorps started their advance on the Stalingrad pocket. The resistance was light but the terrain and the weather was terrible. The 6th Panzer division managed to advance only 30 km in two days. After Dec 14th, the Soviet resistance began to harden and the German attack was ultimately stopped on the 20th of December at the river Myshkova. The 6th Armee couldn't be saved and was destroyed in early February 1943.
There were plans of a breakout attempt by the 6th Army called Operation Thunderclap. This operation was ultimately cancelled because von Paulus didn’t want to disobey Hitlers orders to fight to the death. The supply situation in the pocket was so severe that the few Panzers available had fuel for only half the distance to the river Myshkova. This fact didn’t make von Paulus more prone to order a breakout attempt.

On the other side Stalin made great plans for trapping the German armies in the Caucasus by reaching Rostov before their withdrawal. This plan was originally called Operation Saturn. When the German relief attempt struck the weak southern front South West of Stalingrad the Soviets were surprised. They sent the whole bulk of 2nd Guards Army to stop the attack. The great plan of Operation Saturn was not feasible and Little Saturn was implemented.

You have the option to try to fight it out with historically correct forces and see if you can reach Stalingrad and the 6th Armee before the Red army counterattacks or… as the soviet player reach Rostov before 1st Panzer Armee gets out of Caucasus.

One great advantage of computer games is the ability to answer the question: What if...? In this scenario I have made it possible to save the 6th Armee with the forces from the 1st Panzer Armee. What if OKH/OKW realized the threat to the 6th Armee early in November and begun the withdrawal of the Caucasus forces much earlier? 1st Panzer Armee will enter the battle within the first turns of the battle in the Rostov area. The Scenario have several Theatre Options available for the players. The choices made by the players will impact the outcome of the battle.

Pelle Holmén - Wintergewitter Introduction

http://www.tdg.nu/resources/articles/AARs/Wintergewitter_42_1.50_files/wintergewitter_42.jpg

About seven months ago, Pelle and I had a discussion based on his upcoming scenario, Wintergewitter. It was decided that Warfare HQ would sponsor a mini tournament based on this scenario, and that we would assist Pelle in the playtesting phase. Mensch, JL, Xandamere, Foggy, WestPointer and Southern Dandy stepped up, and the process began. Many questions, comments and suggestions flowed back and forth, and now we're ready to announce the signup phase for this 1 scenario, mini-tournament!

The tourney will start on Monday, March 8th, and the scenario will be made available on Friday, March 5th. Players should post here to signup for this tournament, and please state your preference for playing either the Axis or the Russians. We'll do our best to accomodate player's choices, but if we have an imbalance, some players may not be able to play their initial choice of sides.

More details will follow as we get closer to the start date!

Enjoy!

KG_RangerBooBoo

14 Feb 04, 01:37

Sign me up. I'd like the Germans but don't really have a preference so fit me in where needed.

Southern Dandy

14 Feb 04, 01:52

Since I didn't make it to round three.... :cry:

Sign me up! I'll ask to work for Comrade Stalin, please and thanks....though if needed, I'll give it another whirl as the Germans!

John

laszlo.nemedi

14 Feb 04, 01:57

Actually it is a very good scenario (I was involved in the test, too).

I cannot resist to sign in, but my turn rate is about 1-2 turns per week, if it is OK I would like to get in.

I don't have preference on the side...

Dagger5

14 Feb 04, 02:22

Sign me up. Preference is for the Germans . . .

Tiberius

14 Feb 04, 02:49

At last a tourney featuring my favorite front!
Sign me up. This has been one of the most mouth watering scenarios developing at TDG. I can't wait to get my hands on it. Is this a 'team' tourney? I would have to give some thought to which team I would prefer.

Mantis

14 Feb 04, 03:44

viridomaros

14 Feb 04, 03:44

seems to be an interesting scenario
i go for it no matter the side :p

Panzerpelle

14 Feb 04, 04:52

Happy to see so many sign ups already. For thoose who havent read the most recent AAR you will find it here:AAR of verion 1.36 (http://www.tdg.nu/resources/articles/AARs/Wintergewitter_42_1.36_aar.htm)

Polynike

14 Feb 04, 05:26

never played a tourney so sign me up for either side

jlbetin

14 Feb 04, 05:51

Shaaaaneeee:surprise:
wheeeerrrre areeeee tttttthe yyyyyelllllllow pillsssss, mmmmmy hannnnnnnd is shaaaaaaaacking haaaaaaaaarrrddd ttoo siignn uuppp:o
BBBBuuuttt IIIII ammmmmm ooooooookkkkkk, siiiiidddddeeeee assssssssssss nnnnnno iimmmppoorrtaannnceeee:nuts:

Der WanderMissingHisYellowPillsShaneRoberBringThemBack :D

PS see here why http://www.warfarehq.com/forums/showpost.php?p=56034&postcount=342

Snefens

14 Feb 04, 06:10

Sign me up.

If it adds up I'll be the Soviet, but if it doesn't I can do the German side.

Foggy

14 Feb 04, 07:28

Please count me in - would prefer to work for Stalin - but will play either side if requested :thumup:

fast Heinz

14 Feb 04, 11:53

Sign me up, either side, 2 -3 turns per week.

CyberGeneral

14 Feb 04, 16:15

Officially signed in on this thread as as "IN" the tournament............Either side is fine with me

Foggy

14 Feb 04, 19:18

I just wanted to give an attaboy! to Cyber General for the other tourney thread. Being in on the playtesting - I enjoyed the lob set up :D
Now I want to know if Mantis had anything to do w/the 6th army at
Stalingrad thread :cheeky:

RavenStrike

14 Feb 04, 20:51

I'd like to sign up. The scenario looks very exciting. I'd rather be the under dog Germans if that works out.

Bruce

15 Feb 04, 04:56

Sounds fun - I'd like to be a German (well not really, but you know what I mean!)

GunnerC

15 Feb 04, 06:52

I'm in :D :D ! I will be out for two weeks in April though - so if that causes a problem then I'll have to skip this one.

Either side is fine.

Artur

15 Feb 04, 07:22

Where can I download the scenario?

laszlo.nemedi

15 Feb 04, 09:56

Where can I download the scenario?
Majd később kajuk meg, régebbi verzióm van, ha érdekel.
Egyébként annyi kezdeti választási lehetőség van, hogy úgysem tudod mind kipróbálni.
Örülnék, ha tudnál résztvenni benne. Ha egy teambe kerülünk, akkor tudok neked segíteni.

Üdv,
Némedi László

Panzerpelle

15 Feb 04, 11:22

You will be able to download it on www.tdg.nu and the scenario archive on WFHQ on the 5th of March!

Heinz57

15 Feb 04, 19:53

Free Vodka?!!!

Sign me up for the Soviet side!

I'm moving on Feb 29, but should be operational by NLT March 5th. May have a brief delay afterwards, as well - but can have quick turnarounds to compensate the rest of the time.

Heinz57...or in this case Ivan57

JoeBob

16 Feb 04, 14:17

What the heck!

Put me down for the Russians, but if hard-pressed I'll play either side.

I can commit to 1 turn/week as the scenario looks sizeable, and I'm in the other tourney.

By the way, how many turns is this game?

Last comment: Don't stick me up against Tiberius, we've always got a game going and we are SICK, sick, sick, I tell you of playing each other! :nuts: (Well, maybe I'm exaggerating here...)

Looks like fun!

JoeBob

Tiberius

16 Feb 04, 14:58

Last comment: Don't stick me up against Tiberius, we've always got a game going and we are SICK, sick, sick, I tell you of playing each other! :nuts: (Well, maybe I'm exaggerating here...)

Looks like fun!

JoeBob

Looks like as everybody is volunteering Russian, I'll have to go German, against my usual proclivities. Could you make sure I am going up against JoeBob? I would be sick, sick, sick if I weren't playing him :nuts: as our current game against each other is about to wrap up.
:surprise: :devil: :dead: :cheeky: :nuts: :D

Panzerpelle

16 Feb 04, 16:58

The scenario is 40 turns long with a reasonable number of units. Take a peek at the lastest AAR....

Mantis

16 Feb 04, 18:41

Good to see such a nice turnout for this one!

There's still time left, so don't just think about it, add your name to the list!

Mantis

16 Feb 04, 18:42

Now I want to know if Mantis had anything to do w/the 6th army at Stalingrad thread :cheeky:
I'm innocent! I didn't do anything! No one can prove a thing! :crosseye:

Actually, I don't know which thread you're referring to! ;)

tigersqn

16 Feb 04, 18:44

Count me in.
I'd prefer Germans, but willing to play either side.

Foggy

16 Feb 04, 19:54

What thread indeed ;) It's nice to see something related to business behavior
here at warfare hq - maybe hire Don Cherry/Conan O' Brien as spokesman :eek:

Gambit

17 Feb 04, 12:29

Sign me up.I dont care who I play as.

CyberRanger

17 Feb 04, 13:19

Yes, this will be a 'team' tourney format.

Winning team will earn 80 additional ladder points each; losing team will receive 30 points each. COs will earn an additional 20 points each. Tournament scoring will be based on the same system used for the OPFOR and Sands tournaments. We'll knock a page together and present all the information both there, and in the tournament thread.

Can you expand some on how the team format works? From the tourney page, (http://www.warfarehq.com/tournaments.shtml) looks like the only role of the CO in this tourney would be to slot players while each player still plays a complete game. Is that about correct?

nemo

18 Feb 04, 03:18

If a 2/3 turns a week rate of fire fits in, count me in. Either side will do for me ;) .

Nemo

laszlo.nemedi

18 Feb 04, 06:57

If a 2/3 turns a week rate of fire fits in, count me in. Either side will do for me ;) .

Nemo
Again that 0.66666... turn per week :D

nemo

18 Feb 04, 07:13

Again that 0.66666... turn per week :DOr a turn by 1.5 week :D

CyberRanger

18 Feb 04, 08:12

If a 2/3 turns a week rate of fire fits in, count me in. Either side will do for me ;) .

Nemo

My experience as a playtester is that you will want a day or two to do a turn ... depending on RL, etc. So if you are able to get in two turns a week that will be a decent pace.

This will not be a quick mini-tourney!

CyberRanger

18 Feb 04, 08:12

Please sign me up. Either side.

PanzerGIII

18 Feb 04, 08:14

I will play either side, but would prefer the germans. Looks like fun :cheeky:

Vindex

18 Feb 04, 10:45

Je m'inscrits !
Côté allemand, sinon, russe...
;)

laszlo.nemedi

18 Feb 04, 10:51

Je m'inscrits !
Côté allemand, sinon, russe...
;)

I think he said he DOES NOT want to sign in :D

viridomaros

18 Feb 04, 11:01

I think he said he DO NOT want to sign in :D
no no
he said he wants to register guys ;)

laszlo.nemedi

18 Feb 04, 11:07

Just an idea:

if it can be done we can set up the teams as US against non-US...

It is good because of the different timezone, too (better turn rate)...

Vindex

18 Feb 04, 11:12

I'ts realy good. We must speak english here. Wy not french ? :crosseye:
I'm Swiss and i have no flag... :(
Ok, i want to play the swiss moutain regiment in Caucasus... :devil:

Good idea "US against non-(swiss)US" ;)

viridomaros

18 Feb 04, 11:17

Just an idea:

if it can be done we can set up the teams as US against non-US...

It is good because of the different timezone, too (better turn rate)...
i think it is a good idea
i vote for it :D

ps: my friend vindex has a problem he can't find the switzerland flag and it is quite annoying for him :confused: is there any solutions to this

plutonico

18 Feb 04, 11:46

i want sign in. Tovarich red army if is possible.
(how can i choose my flag (spanish)?

CyberRanger

18 Feb 04, 12:13

i want sign in. Tovarich red army if is possible.
(how can i choose my flag (spanish)?
To change your flag simply do the following. (1) Click on the User CP link at the top of the forum. (2) Click on the Group Memberships link. (3) Select the country you want to belong to from the list. (4) Check the option to display you as a member of this group. You should now be able to see your new flag on the forum.

Vindex

18 Feb 04, 12:33

Thx, but it's no swiss group :rolleyes:

CyberRanger

18 Feb 04, 12:46

Thx, but it's no swiss group :rolleyes:

I've posted a message in the staff section to see if a remedy is possible.

Secadegas

18 Feb 04, 12:47

No portuguese either...

JAMiAM

18 Feb 04, 13:37

I'm still waiting for the black flag of the Anarchists, to be made available... :p

Foggy

18 Feb 04, 13:46

No skull & crossed bones :cheeky:

KG_RangerBooBoo

18 Feb 04, 14:00

I'd like the Freedonia! Long live Freedonia! :nuts:

plutonico

18 Feb 04, 16:56

now i´m good

tahnk you

Siberian HEAT

18 Feb 04, 17:24

Can you expand some on how the team format works? From the tourney page, (http://www.warfarehq.com/tournaments.shtml) looks like the only role of the CO in this tourney would be to slot players while each player still plays a complete game. Is that about correct?

There is more to being a CO than just slotting players...but at the most basic level that is all they are REQUIRED to do. They are also responsible for keeping their players in the game and moving along...but most importantly they are responsible for helping their players play the best game possible. This can be a headache for the CO, but also very rewarding. I have no fonder memories of my time at HQ than leading my Afrika Korps players in the Sands of North Afrika tournament. However, I spent a lot of time writing strategy notes, helping new players get into the swing of things, and looking at SITREPS from my teammates.

I think the person who steps up to be a CO should really be ready to be an interactive leader, rather than a guy who just slots his players and does little else.

Of course, that is just my opinion!

viridomaros

18 Feb 04, 18:09

CyberRanger

18 Feb 04, 21:55

There is more to being a CO than just slotting players...
I think the person who steps up to be a CO should really be ready to be an interactive leader, rather than a guy who just slots his players and does little else.

Of course, that is just my opinion!

Great points HEAT! I plan to start putting together a web page for the tourney tomorrow so we can get a good summary of who is signed up so far.

Stay tuned!

Mantis

18 Feb 04, 22:34

Great points HEAT! I plan to start putting together a web page for the tourney tomorrow so we can get a good summary of who is signed up so far.

Stay tuned!
Awesome, Brent. Saved me an email. :D

HEAT's absolutely right. Leading the OPFOR team in the last tournament is what convinced me of what awesome people we have around here, and make me want to get more involved. But it was alot of work!

The benefits well outweighed the cost. :banana:

Mantis

18 Feb 04, 22:37

in the case we make us-vs european teams

Sorry, gents; not this time 'round.

I would seriously consider the idea, and see what everyone thinks, if it weren't for the fact that we've already got the next tourney planned as well, and it just happens to be a US vs the World type thing. So be patient, and we'll get to regional competition next!

viridomaros

19 Feb 04, 07:35

Sorry, gents; not this time 'round.

I would seriously consider the idea, and see what everyone thinks, if it weren't for the fact that we've already got the next tourney planned as well, and it just happens to be a US vs the World type thing. So be patient, and we'll get to regional competition next!

so have you any idea about the commanders?? :hmmm:
i'm curious and i'm wondering if you will choose the same commander than for the tournament sand in africa (siberian heat and jamiam) or if you are going to chose other players.
i have an idea for this: just make the teams and then organize a kind of election in each team to know who's going to be the commander, we even could have an electoral campaign on the forum, this must be very interesting :cheeky:

laszlo.nemedi

19 Feb 04, 07:44

Sorry, gents; not this time 'round.

I would seriously consider the idea, and see what everyone thinks, if it weren't for the fact that we've already got the next tourney planned as well, and it just happens to be a US vs the World type thing. So be patient, and we'll get to regional competition next!

A new idea: girls against boys :joy: , but I have plenty of other ideas (blackhaired against blondes, conservatives against liberals, youngs against older ones, Bush lovers against Bush oppositions, pro-Iraqwarers against anti-Iraqwarers, active forum members against non-actives, pizza eaters against pizza haters, ...)

laszlo.nemedi

19 Feb 04, 07:47

in the case we make us-vs european teams
i would suggest mr nemedi or mr j-l Betin as commander of european forces :p
i have already asked some advice to mr nemedi and i can say that he is really a good analyser ;)
Don't do that, I have to practice balett in my free time :nuts: , I would vote for jlBetin, but he will be the European forces commander in the next US-nonUS TOAW war (and not mentioning his problem at work... :cry: )

Tiberius

19 Feb 04, 09:21

A new idea: girls against boys :joy: , but I have plenty of other ideas (blackhaired against blondes, conservatives against liberals, youngs against older ones, Bush lovers against Bush oppositions, pro-Iraqwarers against anti-Iraqwarers, active forum members against non-actives, pizza eaters against pizza haters, ...)

How about Germans vs. Russians?

Let's see what have we got so far?

Germans:
RangerBooBoo
Dagger5
RavenStrike
Bruce
TigerSqn
Tiberius
PanzerGIII

Russians:
Southern Dandy
Snefens
Foggy
Heinz57
JoeBob
Vindex
Plutonico

Undecided:
Laszlo.Nemedi
Viridomaros
Fast Heinz
CyberGeneral
Polynike
JLBetin
GunnerC
Gambit
Nemo
WestPointer

I would like to change my mind, since I chose Germans based on the false
impression that there were already a lot more Russian sign ups. I would really prefer to play as Russians, which would assure that I don't have to play JoeBob or Heinz57 whom I am already playing in big games. I have a new tourney game against Bruce too but it is very small game.

Have any of you uncommited guys gotten a decision yet which side you want? Maybe we should 'pick teams' like the old school yard days.

viridomaros

19 Feb 04, 09:26

vindex asked to play with german if it is possible
and i forgot to say that i would like to be in the same team than him because we are friends having contact by msn and so we could help each other

nemo

19 Feb 04, 09:28

Have any of you uncommited guys gotten a decision yet which side you want? Maybe we should 'pick teams' like the old school yard days.
Well, if I had to make a choice, I would rather engage on the German side of the affair - but I am in whatever the assignement.

Nemo

Tiberius

19 Feb 04, 09:52

Germans:
RangerBooBoo
Dagger5
RavenStrike
Bruce
TigerSqn
PanzerGIII
Vindex
Viridomaros
Nemo

Russians:
Southern Dandy
Snefens
Foggy
Heinz57
JoeBob
Tiberius
Plutonico

Undecided:
Laszlo.Nemedi
Fast Heinz
CyberGeneral
Polynike
JLBetin
GunnerC
Gambit
WestPointer

I adjusted the list to reflect the new posts. Sorry I misninterpreted Vindex'
post.

viridomaros

19 Feb 04, 12:12

24 players right now
it seems some good players are missing: where are jamiam, siberian heat, er chaser, raver, fadding captain and so on :hmmm:
we have only 3 officers among us
what about the matches? how are you going to decide which player will play against heinz57 and so on, is it going to be a random process or are you going to take into account the ladder rating, to give the opportunity to all the players to play against opponents of more or less the same rating.
really curious about this

CyberRanger

19 Feb 04, 14:43

laszlo.nemedi

19 Feb 04, 15:35

Wintergewitter (http://www.warfarehq.com/toaw/wintergewitter.shtml) tourney page started!

To give a little feel for the opening battle, I've also included links to two small AAR's I did - one as the Axis and one as the Soviets each up to turn 5.

If you didn't have a preference for a side but do now, please let me know.

Nice work with the webpage! One slight remark: the picture with the T-34/76 1943 type is OK, but the weather should be winter-like (see: Wintergewitter) :p

JAMiAM

19 Feb 04, 15:41

24 players right now
it seems some good players are missing: where are jamiam, siberian heat, er chaser, raver, fadding captain and so on :hmmm:
we have only 3 officers among us
I'm expecting twin boys any day now, and I've got a lot of other commitments at the moment. It would be difficult for me to commit to a tournament, particularly a team tourney, at this time. I've got a few games of DnO that I should be returning to, instead of taking on more games, especially those with the associated attentions of a team to interact with... :cry:

viridomaros

19 Feb 04, 15:46

I'm expecting twin boys any day now, and I've got a lot of other commitments at the moment. It would be difficult for me to commit to a tournament, particularly a team tourney, at this time. I've got a few games of DnO that I should be returning to, instead of taking on more games, especially those with the associated attentions of a team to interact with... :cry:
well congratulations jamiam
i see you have a good excuse :D for not being able to join the tourney
but still wondering about the other players :hmmm:

CyberRanger

19 Feb 04, 16:21

Nice work with the webpage! One slight remark: the picture with the T-34/76 1943 type is OK, but the weather should be winter-like (see: Wintergewitter) :p

Well ... darn ... I'm no expert but I need to reference the pic. It is from http://www.aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?MCS-001 where it is said to be:
"T-34/76 tanks of the 90th armoured brigade are attacking. Stalingrad Front, October 1942"

(Of course, our battle starts a couple months after that so it's not technically from our fight :cheeky: )

Beats me if that's correct or not!

CyberGeneral

19 Feb 04, 18:11

Have any of you uncommited guys gotten a decision yet which side you want?

I'll take the Russian side.....................As for JaMiaM's:

I'm expecting twin boys any day now...

Let's see............game scenarios.........plus baby bottles X 2....... plus Work............plus tournament games......... plus Diapers X 2.........Divided by Club postings ..............plus upcoming sleepless nights X ???...........Equals (*I do believe)...........Top award!

Siberian HEAT

19 Feb 04, 18:49

After getting my A$$ handed to me in Market-Garden, I am looking for something a little more fair. I wouldn't mind playing as the Reds, but I absolutely cannot be CO!

:coolban:

Oh, and I am not going to be one of the fastest opponents in this game...if that matters.

laszlo.nemedi

19 Feb 04, 22:52

Well ... darn ... I'm no expert but I need to reference the pic. It is from http://www.aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?MCS-001 where it is said to be:
"T-34/76 tanks of the 90th armoured brigade are attacking. Stalingrad Front, October 1942"

(Of course, our battle starts a couple months after that so it's not technically from our fight :cheeky: )

Beats me if that's correct or not!

I became unsure if it is the 1943 model type (it could be surely found in January 1943 at Stalingrad), but still not gave it up :o

laszlo.nemedi

19 Feb 04, 22:56

I became unsure if it is the 1943 model type (it could be surely found in January 1943 at Stalingrad), but still not gave it up :o
I found references for the 1942 model for this picture in another source.

JAMiAM

20 Feb 04, 02:49

If I might make some suggestions...

Given that this tourney is a team tourney, of only one round, and with a fairly long scenario, the teams should insulate themselves from being adversely affected by dropouts and late starts.

To do this, the team CO's should set passwords for every one of the games of which their teammates will play. Thus, team one's CO, will open the file to start the game, assign the password and send the unplayed turn one to each of his teammates. Obviously, to preserve randomness, each turn should be a uniquely begun turn.

Then, as each player on team one finishes their turn, they send it to the CO of team two, who will open the turn, assign passwords and then send it on to the teammate who will play the game. The only problem with this would be that team two players would not be able to watch the first replay. This would also confirm to the T2 CO that the games had indeed started and were not being initially delayed by a unresponsive T1 player.

If this would create too much of a disadvantage to team 2, in not being able to see the replay, it could be worked around with the agreement to use only the password assigned by the CO, and the individuals would be responsible for entering that on the game that they open. Otherwise, a copy of the unopened turn 1 .pbl file could be sent along with the .sal that was assigned the password. The .pbl file would then be used only for watching the replay.

All of this trouble would be gone through so that if any player dropped out, and disappeared, the game would not have to be restarted, and the CO could just give the password to the replacement player to be continued from there. It might be a good idea to beforehand, figure out what sort of incentive the replacement players might need to be enticed with, in order to come into a "losing" situation. Maybe bonus ladder points, etc.?

laszlo.nemedi

20 Feb 04, 03:10

Very good idea indeed!

and it seems exciting to replace someone on the fly!! (Really!)

nemo

20 Feb 04, 03:29

Sounds good : it should effectively smoothen out dropouts / replacements and ease each team CO's task in the long run.

viridomaros

20 Feb 04, 05:54

i think it would be quite boring for the co to enter the password in all games and then send it to each players, i prefer your second solution, the co chose a password and everyone in the team has to use it, that seems easy to do and it will be a good thing in case of someone drops

MikeJ

20 Feb 04, 05:55

If it's not too late sign me up. Turn rate should be high... have quite a few active games but half of them are in something of a perpetual limbo and the other half are pretty low-key, slow turn-around time games. Getting itchy for some action.

Axis looks more interesting to me, but I'm willing to play either side.

laszlo.nemedi

20 Feb 04, 07:10

... have quite a few active games but half of them are in something of a perpetual limbo and the other half are pretty low-key, slow turn-around time games....

:o :o :o

CyberRanger

20 Feb 04, 08:56

To do this, the team CO's should set passwords for every one of the games of which their teammates will play. Thus, team one's CO, will open the file to start the game, assign the password and send the unplayed turn one to each of his teammates. Obviously, to preserve randomness, each turn should be a uniquely begun turn.

This is an excellent idea!

I'm not sure how Mantis plans to run the tourney, but turn 1 of the scenario is ONLY used to pick TO's.

IF we play the tourney with historical TO's (which seems to me about the only way to play the tourney although Mantis may have very different thoughts), the ONLY thing that happens on turn 1 is the Axis and then the Soviet player selecting one TO.

If we play the historical version, I don't see any reason why the Axis CO can't select the first turn TO, set the password and send the turn to the Soviet CO. The Soviet CO send's the end of turn 1 back to the Axis CO. He can then check that the password works and mail the turn 2 pbl file to each Axis player. Randomness will be preserved, the password will be set, and the CO's will know that at least each game is on turn 2, which is the critical opening turn.

Tiberius

20 Feb 04, 09:38

IF we play the tourney with historical TO's (which seems to me about the only way to play the tourney although Mantis may have very different thoughts), the ONLY thing that happens on turn 1 is the Axis and then the Soviet player selecting one TO.

How balanced is the historical game? Does it seem to give both sides an equal chance to 'win' (in game results terms). I think most players who have played more than a few TOAW games don't want to post what they think is a miraculous performance for their side only to by saddled with an overwhelming defeat in victory points. I have confidence in Pelle and TDG
but just have to ask. Also it might be interesting to have a few games explore alternative possibilities if they are also balanced. Of course players could always go on to play alternatives later by way of private games or extending the tourney :drool

CyberRanger

20 Feb 04, 09:58

How balanced is the historical game? Does it seem to give both sides an equal chance to 'win' (in game results terms).

Pelle will have to chime in (or other playtesters) but I think the "balance" has been tested primarily in the historical version and is considered balanced.

The non-historical versions generate a lot of variance in the play and are harder to call "balanced". They are more of a "what-if" for fun thing without balance being such a big concern.

However ... that may be totally wrong! (I'm cautious after our results with Market-Garden to call a scenario balanced!)

Foggy

20 Feb 04, 09:58

In my current playtest of WG42 1.46, Southern Dandy & I chose 3 TO's
each :D This is making for a very interesting game. I believe that
v1.49 which includes the Soviet 44th army following the retreat of
1st Panzer army will negate the use of the 1st Panzer army as fire brigades.
The play has been very well balanced - I think it's going to be who
blinks first :devious:

Menschenfresser

20 Feb 04, 11:04

As a playtester, I really can't speak to late game balance as my game didn't make it that far, but I can say that the TOs will make for radically different games. My suggestion was to allow one TO (deployment) for the axis side and two TOs (deployment and Little Saturn) for the Soviets.

Actually not all TO's are initiated on turn 1. Little Saturn can be initiated on any turn. Historically it should be used on turn 4 for an offensive on turn 5.

And I have no idea about points, but IIRC correctly, when we first began playtesting, Pelle remarked that the scenario had only been tested along the historical lines. Dunno.

You know, it might be worthwhile to have some sort of a curve for final point tallies. Like if 8 outta 10 times the Soviets win, then the Axis gets added to their score the average of the difference in scores. I don't know if that would do it...but something along those lines. It needn't be that way...only if the scen turns out to be a Market Garden.

Foggy

20 Feb 04, 12:25

I should have included these TO descriptions earlier:

Southern Dandy Axis

1. Active Turn One - Early release 1st Panzer Army - units arrive southern
edge of map after turn 5.
2. Active Turn One - Early release 19th Pz Division - units arrive on the rail
line NW of Svatovo. Italian 8th army under German control from the
beginning.
3. 57th Pz Corps Placement - South, Center or North to be chosen.

Foggy Russians

4. Active Turn One - Release DON Front reinforcements elsewhere - allows
the early use of the reinforcement for Operation Koltso to be used
anywhere on the map.
5. Active Turn One - Use DON Front units anywhere on the map.
6. Active Turn One - Historical 2nd Guards Army deployment North

We are currently thru 16 turns to date. The TO's chosen above have made
for a close contest. The choices are certainly not historical at all. Maybe
a blend of games w/ different TO's is possible?

Panzerpelle

20 Feb 04, 13:19

Hi All!
After getting feedback from the playtesters from WFHQ and and my comrades at tdg I think the different TOs equals out regarding playbalance. I can be wrong so no promises. The heart and soul of the scenario are the TOs choosen by the players. There are many combinations and some might disrupt the playbalance but the idea of trying a new and fresh idea is a reward in it self. The choises can be very intersting discussion amongst the teams before the tourney starts. I have noticed a lack of information about the scenario in the discussion. Thats why a post a link to the scenariopage at tdg which is not yet ready for publishing. You will find a full scenario briefing on the page. It might help in the discussions to come...

http://www.tdg.nu/resources/articles/AARs/Wintergewitter_42_1.50.htm

CyberRanger

20 Feb 04, 13:20

I should have included these TO descriptions earlier:

Southern Dandy Axis

3. 57th Pz Corps Placement - South, Center or North to be chosen.

....The TO's chosen above have made
for a close contest. The choices are certainly not historical at all. Maybe
a blend of games w/ different TO's is possible?

Which deployment did Southern Dandy chose for 57th Pz Corps?

I have a definite opinion about how the deployment of 57th Pz Corp and 2nd Gd Army will impact the game ... but I'll let others decide and see the scenario before I spout off! :hush:

CyberRanger

20 Feb 04, 13:23

Hi All!
...It might help in the discussions to come...

http://www.tdg.nu/resources/articles/AARs/Wintergewitter_42_1.50.htm

Thanks, Pelle. I was going to do that with the briefing I have but I wasn't sure it was current.

Also, I tried to find the discussion about the scenario on the TDG forum but didn't have any luck. If you have the link, and think it would be helpful, can you please post it.

Panzerpelle

20 Feb 04, 13:30

Thanks, Pelle. I was going to do that with the briefing I have but I wasn't sure it was current.

Also, I tried to find the discussion about the scenario on the TDG forum but didn't have any luck. If you have the link, and think it would be helpful, can you please post it.
Done! I have bumped up the page to page one on the forum:http://www.tdg.nu/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=TOAW;action=display;num=1015756897

Foggy

20 Feb 04, 13:51

It looks like Southern Dandy picked the historical deployment for 57th
Pz Korps - NE of Kotelniko. I'm curious to hear your opinion. We both picked
historical deployments of the 2nd Guards Army as well as 57 Pz Korps.
We each added additional units - the more the merrier for playtesting :D
I believe the expression was " take it for a ride - see what happens " from
the power that be!

CyberRanger

20 Feb 04, 15:17

... I wouldn't mind playing as the Reds, but I absolutely cannot be CO!

I've added MikeJ to the Axis and WestPointer (me, myself, and I), CyberGeneral, and Siberian HEAT to the Soviets. That evens out the players with 6 players to still be assigned a side - Laszlo.Nemedi, FastHeinz, Polynike, JLBetin, GunnerC, and Gambit.

...Oh, and I am not going to be one of the fastest opponents in this game...if that matters.

The scenario is 40 turns. I figure if players complete 2 full turns a week that will be a good average. Either way, this won't be a quick mini-tourney!

Panzerpelle

20 Feb 04, 15:25

It looks like Southern Dandy picked the historical deployment for 57th
Pz Korps - NE of Kotelniko. I'm curious to hear your opinion.
That would be like revealing the answer...wouldnt it...As a teacher I am a pro of not telling the answer...but I am happy to ask questions..:smoke:

Foggy

20 Feb 04, 15:32

Well - I am really curious :cheeky: We only took added ahistorical units -
deployments kept historical - I attacked everywhere I could to keep
Southern Dandy off balance - not sure if that's a smart tactic. But as a
TOAW player - if I have units - they're going to fight :thumup:

Dicke Bertha

20 Feb 04, 16:55

I think he said he DOES NOT want to sign in :D
:D
Deutscher Seite bitte!
Infanterie - Panzerknacker, italienischer Front!
Vous m'avez compris?

Southern Dandy

21 Feb 04, 02:04

Just home from work for the first time in a couple of days....I'll try to answer a couple of things and address a couple of others....

I took the historical deployment for LVII PzK in the game I have going against Foggy (at some point, maybe tomorrow, I'll open up turn 18 and see what you've done to my nice, neat front lines :cry: ). I don't think our game is going to be decided by who blinks first anymore...I think it'll come down to whoever has a unit with anything left in it still on the map...it's been a blood-letting for both sides! :nuts:

When I sent Foggy the last turn (and things may have changed drastically since then :o ), I was expanding the pocket and continuing to push towards it with LVII PzK on a fairly broad front. Lead elements are now 3-4 hexes from 6th Armee and closing SLOWLY. I had fairly well mauled the 28th Army in the south, while the north and center sections had seen my Italians getting clobbered, but 1st PzA arrived in time to help me stabilize that section of the front. More recently, Foggy had been putting a hurting on the 7th LFD in particular, but 5th SS PzD was in close reserve at the time and did the job as a fire brigade.

As far as some of the other discussion regarding CO's setting passwords and picking TOs and sending the turn to the other side.....my biggest concern, and perhaps this has been changed by Pelle by garrisoning everything on turn one, is that not only are there TOs to choose on turn one...you can use that non-combat turn to redeploy units, dig-in, change loss settings, and so on....I took full advantage of that in my game against Foggy.

I too have some thoughts on the LVII PzK and 2nd Guards Army deployment as well.....at some point we'll all have to compare notes! ;)

Eric Weider

21 Feb 04, 02:12

i'll play - small pref for russians.

Panzerpelle

21 Feb 04, 04:03

Just home from work for the first time in a couple of days....I'll try to answer a couple of things and address a couple of others....

As far as some of the other discussion regarding CO's setting passwords and picking TOs and sending the turn to the other side.....my biggest concern, and perhaps this has been changed by Pelle by garrisoning everything on turn one, is that not only are there TOs to choose on turn one...you can use that non-combat turn to redeploy units, dig-in, change loss settings, and so on....I took full advantage of that in my game against Foggy.

I have added a new house rule that forbids redeployment (any movment at all) on turn one...

CyberRanger

21 Feb 04, 08:00

I have added a new house rule that forbids redeployment (any movment at all) on turn one...

Yes, that's how we started my last playtest. The ONLY and I mean ONLY thing done on turn 1 is TO selection.

CyberRanger

21 Feb 04, 08:01

i'll play - small pref for russians.
I'll sign you up under the Soviets.

Tiberius

21 Feb 04, 13:25

Let's have each team vote for commanders and then pick teams for the remaining players. Perhaps we could do something where we did some games historical, some games with these variations, some with that, etc.

plutonico

23 Feb 04, 04:47

Better than vote comandants is talk about it and choose him, because some people, me, dont be able to vote. (we dont have experience to decide).

viridomaros

23 Feb 04, 04:52

Better than vote comandants is talk about it and choose him, because some people, me, dont be able to vote. (we dont have experience to decide).
you can at least have a look at the ladder rating ;)
but it is true that it doesn't necessarly reflects the reality :confused: i have some idea for co, i have already gave two names: mr nemedi and J-l betin

Tiberius

23 Feb 04, 09:23

you can at least have a look at the ladder rating ;)
but it is true that it doesn't necessarly reflects the reality :confused: i have some idea for co, i have already gave two names: mr nemedi and J-l betin

Neither one has picked a side! Perhaps they can each a pick a side to command.

laszlo.nemedi

23 Feb 04, 09:46

I would like to nominate Westpointer, as the effort he put in to War in the West tourney makes him good CO (if his newly-born child allow him to do it)...

((I have to practice balett, and jazz-dance boys as I said :nuts: :rolleyes: ))

laszlo.nemedi

23 Feb 04, 09:56

(I know the scenario as I was a test player.)

I cannot choose side because

the German side is very exciting because they have to save the 6th army and in the same time to defend with small resources.

the soviet side is good because they have to attack, which is a good thing because I (slowly) learn to attack.

:hmmm:

OK, slight preferences to the Axis side... but if there is problem with the group size I can easily change the side...

(Well, better to be in the same group with MikeJ than being oppose him :dead: )

viridomaros

23 Feb 04, 13:14

well i agree to chose westpointer as co too he is a great player too, he kicked my butt twice as good as i remember :D . otherwise i'm still suggesting mr J-L bettin for second co

Foggy

24 Feb 04, 16:50

I'm a virgin when it comes to a team tourney. Could someone explain the
facts of life :crosseye:

CyberRanger

24 Feb 04, 16:56

I'm a virgin when it comes to a team tourney. Could someone explain the
facts of life :crosseye:

Me too! Please be gentle. How is the CO selected and how does the CO slot the players?

Mantis ... the crowds grow restless!

jlbetin

24 Feb 04, 17:00

Tovarich,

To counter the agression of Great Capital and the Facist forces of the Deutsche Reich and to follow the example of our great Comrad Staline, I order the JLBETIN's division to move to Stalingrad and become under the command of NKVD Tovarich Kroutchev, the best forces of the Backbone of the Political Comissar Forces

HUrrah Pobedia. Long live to Comrad Staline

Der WanderNKVDGeneral

CyberRanger

24 Feb 04, 17:02

HUrrah Pobedia. Long live to Comrad Staline

Der WanderNKVDGeneral

A fine soldier joins the Soviet fight against aggression!

JAMiAM

24 Feb 04, 17:20

Me too! Please be gentle. How is the CO selected and how does the CO slot the players?

Mantis ... the crowds grow restless!

Previously the CO's would slot their teammates against a list of the other team players, but that was based on having multiple rounds in a tourney (Team 1 slots first round, Team 2 slots second round, and the team behind slots on the third round)

Given that there is only one round in this quicky tourney, I have no idea how Mantis intends to arrange any sort of slotting. What could happen is that each team CO slots in turn (using the WHQ Chat room, or some other IM) one player at a time until each of the teammates on both sides has been assigned an opponent.

Furocity

24 Feb 04, 21:11

sign me up, I will join either side

Tiberius

24 Feb 04, 23:19

Here is my idea for how to do the tournament. Team leaders, hopefully with the cooperation of HQ leaders and Pelle, create a list of game slots that will be played under different combinations of theater options. In other words, there are two games with option A for Russians and option B for Germans, two games with option B for Russians and option B for Germans, two games with option A for Russians and option A for Germans, etc. The objective would be to create game slots for all possible combinations of theatre options.
The team leader then populate the slots with their players.
Actually perhaps HQ leaders and Pelle should make the game combinations as it would be important, for instance that the Russians not know they are fighting in a "German Panzer corp north" slot.

My other idea has to do with substitutes. History shows that there are a substantial number of drop-outs in each tournament. For one thing people who have dropped out or been disqualified in previous tourneys probably should not be eligable. (Can't think of anybody off hand) I think the last few people to sign up and the rest of the sign ups (depending on total number of sign ups, slots and higher authorities) become substitutes. Substitutes automatically get tourney ladder points and get _all_ the points for the game they end up completing. (i.e. full points for the full length game, even if they only played the last few turns). And also no LOSS pegged to their record if they sub into a losing situation. I think the substitute deal would be really advatagous for this slot oriented style I propose so that as much results can be gotten out of the tourney as possible.

Whew! I hope that made some sense to you guys. Kind of a ramble. :nuts:

Tiberius

24 Feb 04, 23:21

Some of the game slots could be "free selection" If it's easy to create all combinations with the number of games we get.

CyberRanger

25 Feb 04, 08:51

sign me up, I will join either side

I've added you to the list as side TBD.

Zhukovman

25 Feb 04, 08:59

Like to have a go, prefer Soviet but if need be will do Axis.

CyberRanger

25 Feb 04, 09:05

Here is my idea for how to do the tournament. Team leaders, hopefully with the cooperation of HQ leaders and Pelle, create a list of game slots that will be played under different combinations of theater options. In other words, there are two games with option A for Russians and option B for Germans, two games with option B for Russians and option B for Germans, two games with option A for Russians and option A for Germans, etc. The objective would be to create game slots for all possible combinations of theatre options.
The team leader then populate the slots with their players.
Actually perhaps HQ leaders and Pelle should make the game combinations as it would be important, for instance that the Russians not know they are fighting in a "German Panzer corp north" slot.

Yeah that makes sense. From the scenario briefing we know that each side has three deployment options (if Mantis sets the tourney up where something outside the non-historical deployments are allowed.)

So we would have 9 combinations:

Axis - North : Soviet - North
Axis - North : Soviet - Center
Axis - North : Soviet - South
Axis - Center : Soviet - North
Axis - Center : Soviet - Center
Axis - Center : Soviet - South
Axis - South : Soviet - North
Axis - South : Soviet - Center
Axis - South : Soviet - South

We currently have enough players for 13 matches so that would leave 4 "wild" card games.

I like your idea. Each CO could send Mantis a list of where to slot that sides players, ie the Soviets would slot three players for each deployment option (9 players) and then chose 4 players for the wild card games with the deployment option. Gives each time a bit of control but maintains some fog of war and random selection.

(p.s. I think I did that right!)

CyberRanger

25 Feb 04, 09:09

For one thing people who have dropped out or been disqualified in previous tourneys probably should not be eligable. (Can't think of anybody off hand)

I can .... yours truly (completed Round 1 of War in the West but withdrew before Round 2 started) and at least one more player who had a forfeit in War in the West. I'm willing to give me another chance ... as well as the other player. :o

Tiberius

25 Feb 04, 09:29

I can .... yours truly (completed Round 1 of War in the West but withdrew before Round 2 started) and at least one more player who had a forfeit in War in the West. I'm willing to give me another chance ... as well as the other player. :o

I was thinking "dropping out" and "withdrawing" were different. But your argument well taken. -Would hate to lose our new commander just after appointing him.

Tiberius

25 Feb 04, 09:32

CyberRanger

25 Feb 04, 09:40

Like to have a go, prefer Soviet but if need be will do Axis.

then Soviet you are!

CyberRanger

25 Feb 04, 10:10

I would actually vote to include all possible combinations of historical and non historical theater option combinations in the slotting.
Provided there is some kind of VP penalty for extra historical forces.
I definitely agree that all identical exactly historical games would be b-o-r-i-n-g.
That would be a lot of different combinations. (I need to pull out my statistics book to calculate it!) We would have the three deployment TO's per side, plus 2 of 3 Axis non-deployment TO's, plus 2 of 3 Soviet TO's. Yeah, we need a math prof to calculate that!

There is no VP penalty associated with the non-deployment TO's. Pelle believes they balance out.

The non-deployment TO's may be better left for play outside the tourney ... one man's opinion! :cheeky:

laszlo.nemedi

25 Feb 04, 10:18

laszlo.nemedi

25 Feb 04, 10:25

You can direct me to the Axis side...

Panzerpelle

25 Feb 04, 11:05

That would be a lot of different combinations. (I need to pull out my statistics book to calculate it!) We would have the three deployment TO's per side, plus 2 of 3 Axis non-deployment TO's, plus 2 of 3 Soviet TO's. Yeah, we need a math prof to calculate that!

There is no VP penalty associated with the non-deployment TO's. Pelle believes they balance out.

The non-deployment TO's may be better left for play outside the tourney ... one man's opinion! :cheeky:

But the soviets should be able to choose the Little saturn offensive TO..Its historical...If a historical game is wanted it must be used on turn 4...If playbalance is a issue maybe letting the players choose only one non-deployment TO could be a comprimize? In the AAR of version 1.36 the players thought the scenario was to historical and there where no surprises..therefore the extra TOs was created...I think the games would be more fun to play with the full range of TOs...but with a risk of not being totally balanced...

Zhukovman

25 Feb 04, 11:20

But the soviets should be able to choose the Little saturn offensive TO..Its historical...If a historical game is wanted it must be used on turn 4...If playbalance is a issue maybe letting the players choose only one non-deployment TO could be a comprimize? In the AAR of version 1.36 the players thought the scenario was to historical and there where no surprises..therefore the extra TOs was created...I think the games would be more fun to play with the full range of TOs...but with a risk of not being totally balanced...

hhmmm. After reading thread it seems only a few have access to scenario, therefore for most of us the games TO's will not be as clear, with reards to pro's and con's. Surely in the interest of taking on the role of a general, one can make his own decsions, whether right or wrong. I vote to leave the TO's in. More surprise and excitement

CyberRanger

25 Feb 04, 11:26

hhmmm. After reading thread it seems only a few have access to scenario, therefore for most of us the games TO's will not be as clear, with reards to pro's and con's.

The Scenario Briefing (http://www.tdg.nu/resources/articles/AARs/Wintergewitter_42_1.50_files/Wintergewitter_42_briefing.htm) is available. I know that's not the same but a start in case anyone missed that link.

Panzerpelle

25 Feb 04, 11:38

hhmmm. After reading thread it seems only a few have access to scenario, therefore for most of us the games TO's will not be as clear, with reards to pro's and con's. Surely in the interest of taking on the role of a general, one can make his own decsions, whether right or wrong. I vote to leave the TO's in. More surprise and excitement
The teams will have the weekend before march 8th to go through the scenario. The release is March 5th. Hopefully it will be an intersting discusion in the teams...

laszlo.nemedi

25 Feb 04, 16:42

I changed to the Red Army... :hush:

Tiberius

25 Feb 04, 18:11

hhmmm. After reading thread it seems only a few have access to scenario, therefore for most of us the games TO's will not be as clear, with reards to pro's and con's. Surely in the interest of taking on the role of a general, one can make his own decsions, whether right or wrong. I vote to leave the TO's in. More surprise and excitement

This is a good point - it will be more exciting for the players to pick their own theater options. I was just looking for a way to see that a lot of different combinations got played, and perhaps for creating game slots for the players to fill. Oh I don't know.

Panzerpelle

26 Feb 04, 06:17

This is a good point - it will be more exciting for the players to pick their own theater options. I was just looking for a way to see that a lot of different combinations got played, and perhaps for creating game slots for the players to fill. Oh I don't know.
It is still possible to sharethe passwords in the teams...to make it easier to fill AWOLs...

CyberRanger

26 Feb 04, 09:40

VERY Important!!!! German players ... please have someone from your side contact me ASAP at brent_layman AT yahoo DOT com.

Thanks!

nemo

26 Feb 04, 09:50

Done...:cool:

CyberRanger

26 Feb 04, 15:38

Pelle -

The scenario briefing (http://www.tdg.nu/resources/articles/AARs/Wintergewitter_42_1.50_files/Wintergewitter_42_briefing.htm#7) reads:

THE THEATRE OPTIONS
If the players decide to go for the historical version, TOs labelled historical must be used and all others ignored. It should be noted that this scenario have been play tested in historical version.

Under the "historical" version, the Soviets select the northern deployment and the Germans the south. Do the Soviets also active Little Saturn on turn 4 (so it's in effect on turn 5)?

Menschenfresser

26 Feb 04, 16:27

Yea, that's the idea.

CyberRanger

26 Feb 04, 16:46

Yea, that's the idea.

That's what I thought too ... but I wanted to make sure it was clear to everyone else in case we do have some historical games.

Mensch ... not too late to join the defense of the Motherland! :D

viridomaros

26 Feb 04, 17:16

dammed..........
jl betin and lazlo nemedi have chosen russian, dammed traitors :rifle:
now i really don't know who to chose for the commander :hmmm:
tigersqn, mikej ( still undefeated :D ) and rangerbooboo seem to be the more experienced players. but who is the best adviser and analyst? :hmmm:

Mantis

27 Feb 04, 00:55

so have you any idea about the commanders?? :hmmm:
i'm curious and i'm wondering if you will choose the same commander than for the tournament sand in africa (siberian heat and jamiam) or if you are going to chose other players.
i have an idea for this: just make the teams and then organize a kind of election in each team to know who's going to be the commander, we even could have an electoral campaign on the forum, this must be very interesting :cheeky:
I'm going to break you guys into evenly sized teams, but then picking the COs is entirely up to you. Most times, it simply done through a bit of chatter inside the tourney thread itself.

Mantis

27 Feb 04, 00:57

Mantis

27 Feb 04, 00:58

Mantis

27 Feb 04, 00:59

well congratulations jamiam
i see you have a good excuse :D for not being able to join the tourney
but still wondering about the other players :hmmm:
I just don't have the time to commit to playing as well as running the tourneys right now. Sorry gents.

Mantis

27 Feb 04, 01:06

If I might make some suggestions...

Given that this tourney is a team tourney, of only one round, and with a fairly long scenario, the teams should insulate themselves from being adversely affected by dropouts and late starts. This is something we've discussed way back in chat when we decided on all the new formats. COs will be giving out the PWs, and the honor system will be used to ensure that the players can both see the playbacks, and enter the PW in themselves.

If you dig up the thread where all this was discussed, you'll see that subs have special privs, as recompense for having to complete someone else's game. They will recieve points for their actual result, or a draw, whichever is a more favourable result for them. There are other nuances that I need to work out by examing the ladder software, and seeing just what I can get away with.

Players that go AWOL/Drop out/Etc and failed to put in the proper PW when the game began will be banned for 1 tourney, and will score an OD.

Mantis

27 Feb 04, 01:12

This is an excellent idea!

I'm not sure how Mantis plans to run the tourney, but turn 1 of the scenario is ONLY used to pick TO's.

IF we play the tourney with historical TO's (which seems to me about the only way to play the tourney although Mantis may have very different thoughts), the ONLY thing that happens on turn 1 is the Axis and then the Soviet player selecting one TO.

If we play the historical version, I don't see any reason why the Axis CO can't select the first turn TO, set the password and send the turn to the Soviet CO. The Soviet CO send's the end of turn 1 back to the Axis CO. He can then check that the password works and mail the turn 2 pbl file to each Axis player. Randomness will be preserved, the password will be set, and the CO's will know that at least each game is on turn 2, which is the critical opening turn.
We might go that route, but I've several different suggestions on how to proceed in regards to the TOs. Not ready with all the final details yet. :D

Mantis

27 Feb 04, 01:15

As far as some of the other discussion regarding CO's setting passwords and picking TOs and sending the turn to the other side.....my biggest concern, and perhaps this has been changed by Pelle by garrisoning everything on turn one, is that not only are there TOs to choose on turn one...you can use that non-combat turn to redeploy units, dig-in, change loss settings, and so on....I took full advantage of that in my game against Foggy.

Unless directly stated as illegal in the briefing, this would be allowed.

Mantis

27 Feb 04, 01:16

I have added a new house rule that forbids redeployment (any movment at all) on turn one...
:laugh:

There ya go!

Mantis

27 Feb 04, 01:18

Me too! Please be gentle. How is the CO selected and how does the CO slot the players?

Mantis ... the crowds grow restless!
As it's only a 1 round tourney, we're going to let the slotting be random.

Mantis

27 Feb 04, 01:19

Previously the CO's would slot their teammates against a list of the other team players, but that was based on having multiple rounds in a tourney (Team 1 slots first round, Team 2 slots second round, and the team behind slots on the third round)

Given that there is only one round in this quicky tourney, I have no idea how Mantis intends to arrange any sort of slotting. What could happen is that each team CO slots in turn (using the WHQ Chat room, or some other IM) one player at a time until each of the teammates on both sides has been assigned an opponent.
That's an interesting idea. We can go with that, if the COs agree.

Mantis

27 Feb 04, 01:22

Yeah that makes sense. From the scenario briefing we know that each side has three deployment options (if Mantis sets the tourney up where something outside the non-historical deployments are allowed.)
I would prefer to leave it open in regards to the TOs.

So we would have 9 combinations:

Axis - North : Soviet - North
Axis - North : Soviet - Center
Axis - North : Soviet - South
Axis - Center : Soviet - North
Axis - Center : Soviet - Center
Axis - Center : Soviet - South
Axis - South : Soviet - North
Axis - South : Soviet - Center
Axis - South : Soviet - South

We currently have enough players for 13 matches so that would leave 4 "wild" card games.

I like your idea. Each CO could send Mantis a list of where to slot that sides players, ie the Soviets would slot three players for each deployment option (9 players) and then chose 4 players for the wild card games with the deployment option. Gives each time a bit of control but maintains some fog of war and random selection.

(p.s. I think I did that right!)
What do you guys think about this idea?

tigersqn

27 Feb 04, 02:32

I would prefer to leave it open in regards to the TOs.

What do you guys think about this idea?

I would prefer that individual commanders be given the flexibility to run the battle as they see fit.
Deployments are a major part of a commander's intent and have a huge part to play in the goals he wishes to achieve. By limiting the player's deployment option in a scenario like this, we're limiting the ability of the player to decide on the way in which he plays out the scenario.

I understand that game dynamics may change depending on the deployment options & the TOs selected, but this is the scenario offered and IMO, as long as the scenario honor rules & restrictions are followed the only issue would be how to win as a team; which in turn is a concern only for the COs.

nemo

27 Feb 04, 04:00

Mein Herren!

As asked by Wespointer, I have mailed the Wintergewitter 42 scenario file (in its 1.49 version) to the players who have signed up for the German side. So check your mailboxes... ;)

I took the player list form the mini-tourney site :
- RangerBooBoo
- Dagger5
- RavenStrike
- Bruce
- TigerSqn
- PanzerGIII
- Vindex
- Viridomaros
- MikeJ
and used the emails supplied on the TOAW ladder. Post here or drop a line at nihil69@free.fr if there has been a problem with the mail.

Und jetzt, zum Szenario!

Nemo

nemo

27 Feb 04, 04:09

Mail problems :
- PanzerGIII : mail got bounced with a 'user unknown' tag. Will re-re-check address...
- Dagger5 : mail bounced with a 'file too large or mailbox full' message... Will supply .zip file...

Nemo

nemo

27 Feb 04, 04:21

PanzerGIII : problem solved :cool:
Dagger5 : resent zipped file that apparently went through...

Nemo

CyberRanger

27 Feb 04, 07:08

PanzerGIII : problem solved :cool:
Dagger5 : resent zipped file that apparently went through...

Nemo

Thanks Nemo ... remember gents ... do NOT redistribute this file.

The intent is to let everyone get a better feel for how the TO's work so you can contribute to the discussion on how to setup the tourney.

Tiberius

27 Feb 04, 09:06

But the soviets should be able to choose the Little saturn offensive TO..Its historical...If a historical game is wanted it must be used on turn 4...If playbalance is a issue maybe letting the players choose only one non-deployment TO could be a comprimize? In the AAR of version 1.36 the players thought the scenario was to historical and there where no surprises..therefore the extra TOs was created...I think the games would be more fun to play with the full range of TOs...but with a risk of not being totally balanced...

How about letting players choose one TO for extra-historical forces each. There is no reason why -with no victory point penalties- players would not choose all TOs for extra forces. Throwing balance totally out the window.

Tiberius

27 Feb 04, 09:25

Yeah that makes sense. From the scenario briefing we know that each side has three deployment options (if Mantis sets the tourney up where something outside the non-historical deployments are allowed.)

So we would have 9 combinations:

Axis - North : Soviet - North
Axis - North : Soviet - Center
Axis - North : Soviet - South
Axis - Center : Soviet - North
Axis - Center : Soviet - Center
Axis - Center : Soviet - South
Axis - South : Soviet - North
Axis - South : Soviet - Center
Axis - South : Soviet - South

We currently have enough players for 13 matches so that would leave 4 "wild" card games.

I like your idea. Each CO could send Mantis a list of where to slot that sides players, ie the Soviets would slot three players for each deployment option (9 players) and then chose 4 players for the wild card games with the deployment option. Gives each time a bit of control but maintains some fog of war and random selection.

(p.s. I think I did that right!)

Actually now that I have access to the scenario I see that what you have posted here is not my idea. I think the deployment options should be left to the player. It is only the extra-historical forces TOs that should be slotted. The Germans have three TOs for extra-historical forces and the Russians have two. (actually was Thunderclap a historical TO like little Saturn? then of so it's two vs. two)

so the slots would be for example:
early release of 19th panzer vs. Don front outside pocket
early release of 1st Pz Army vs. Don front outside pocket
early release of 19th Pz Army vs. Don reinforcements outside pocket
early release of 1st Pz Army vs. Don reinforcements outside pocket
both German against Don reinforce outside pocket.
both German against Don front outside pocket.
both Russian against early release of 1st Pz army
both Russian against early release of 19th Panzer
and last but not least:
All German against historical Russian
All Russian against historical German
oh yeah and of course:
historical Russian vs historical German

The deployment options (Norht,South,Center) would remain in the hands of the players. We could ask for volunteers to play the bad sides or choose them by seeding (the best players get the most difficult slots) or just let the commanders choose or whatever. I think if we don't do something like this. All the players will choose all their extra forces and there will be no variety in the games for playtest/interest purposes and as Pelle pointed out not necessarily balanced.

viridomaros

27 Feb 04, 10:26

may be we can give extra historical reinforcement to the weakest players, this to give a chance to the players who are not that good hehe ;)

Panzerpelle

27 Feb 04, 11:43

Pelle -

The scenario briefing (http://www.tdg.nu/resources/articles/AARs/Wintergewitter_42_1.50_files/Wintergewitter_42_briefing.htm#7) reads:

Under the "historical" version, the Soviets select the northern deployment and the Germans the south. Do the Soviets also active Little Saturn on turn 4 (so it's in effect on turn 5)?
Misstake from me....I do think the TO is historical in way...I will change this in the briefing doc....

Panzerpelle

27 Feb 04, 11:57

CyberRanger

27 Feb 04, 11:59

Misstake from me....I do think the TO is historical in way...I will change this in the briefing doc....

Pelle - thanks, that will be good to clarify. I thought I understood how Little Saturn counted as a TO but now I'm confused!

Here's my understanding ....

1. In the historical version, the German's deploy south, the Soviets north, and the Soviets activate Little Saturn on turn 4.

2. In the non-historical version, each player choses one deployment TO. The players then decide on how many non-deployment TO's to pick - either one or two per player.

What I'm confused about is this - under #2, does Little Saturn count as one of the TO's or does the Soviet player always get to select Little Saturn?

Panzerpelle

27 Feb 04, 12:00

Pelle - thanks, that will be good to clarify. I thought I understood how Little Saturn counted as a TO but now I'm confused!

Here's my understanding ....

1. In the historical version, the German's deploy south, the Soviets north, and the Soviets activate Little Saturn on turn 4.

2. In the non-historical version, each player choses one deployment TO. The players then decide on how many non-deployment TO's to pick - either one or two per player.

What I'm confused about is this - under #2, does Little Saturn count as one of the TO's or does the Soviet player always get to select Little Saturn?
In a non historicla game I would count it as an ordinary non-deployment TO..The problem of choises..

CyberRanger

27 Feb 04, 12:20

I a not sure but I think you have missunderstood the use of the TOs. The players have to use equal number of TOs for the scenario to work.

I'd agree here with Pelle ... we need the players to chose the same number of TO's or we risk really messing up the scenario balance. We don't want to intentionally handicap players based on TO's.

CyberRanger

27 Feb 04, 12:23

Pelle, could you clarify turn 1 activities?

My understanding is that the ONLY action a player takes on turn 1 is selecting TO's. To help clarify, can a player do any of the actions below on turn 1?

1. change air formation assignments (air superiority, et al)?
2. dig in/fortify units?
3. change unit loss tolerance (ignore losses, etc.)?

Thanks!

tigersqn

27 Feb 04, 13:36

I'd agree here with Pelle ... we need the players to chose the same number of TO's or we risk really messing up the scenario balance. We don't want to intentionally handicap players based on TO's.

That'll work. :thumup:

fast Heinz

27 Feb 04, 16:24

I have just been informed that I will be out of town from 3/9 to 3/19...

After that I should have enough time....if that makes me too slow no problem as I have yet to be put on a team..

CyberRanger

27 Feb 04, 16:24

Soviet player can use the DON front Armies freely if the German player succeeds in penetrating the boundary marked with “*” and make contact with 6th Army. Historically the armies of DON front were sent northwest to participate in the battles of Kursk and Charkov after the destruction of the 6th Armee.

Pelle:

Can you define "penetration"? :devious:

(ie, German's occupy a * hex or move beyond a * hex?)

Or is the important part of that rule the "make contact", ie 6th Army and relief forces can touch each other?

CyberRanger

27 Feb 04, 16:26

I have just been informed that I will be out of town from 3/9 to 3/19...

After that I should have enough time....if that makes me too slow no problem as I have yet to be put on a team..

Speaking with my WFHQ hat on ... I don't see this as a problem.

CyberRanger

27 Feb 04, 16:31

After operation Koltso begins, the Axis player receives 1 VP per turn until the occupation of Stalingrad by the Red Army. If the German pocket at Stalingrad holds out for the duration of the scenario a total of approx.10 VPs is awarded.

Pelle:

If the Soviet's elect to take "TO Release DON front reinforcements elsewhere" does the 1 VP per turn still start on turn 30 or does it start when the DON front reinforcements arrive?

Also, is the supply point placed in Kalach any sooner when that option is selected?

(I promise no more questions for awhile!)

Tiberius

27 Feb 04, 20:43

[QUOTE=Tiberius]
both German against Don reinforce outside pocket.
both German against Don front outside pocket.
both Russian against early release of 1st Pz army
both Russian against early release of 19th Panzer
and last but not least:
All German against historical Russian
All Russian against historical German
oh yeah and of course:
historical Russian vs historical German

QUOTE]
I a not sure but I think you have missunderstood the use of the TOs. The players have to use equal number of TOs for the scenario to work. Minimum one deployment TO. Maximum one deployment TO and 2 non-deployment TO. If for example a newbie german player is allowed to use 2 non-deployment TOs against a vet Soviet players one..that would be a kind of handicap system but that is not the intent of the tourney..?

Yes I am talking exactly about prehandicapped 'slots' for players to go into.
The # of TOs they get depend on which slot they are in, and there are pre-defined slots to allow for a variety of different TO options to be played against each other. I don't think anyone really understands my idea or if they do noone is buying it. So be it. Although even now you are proposing a simplified variation of my idea. We could have a certain number of games with over balanced TOs (2 to 1) and teams can put there newbies into the easy games and vets into the hard ones. In this system the slots would be:

3 games historical
3 games 2 Soviet vs 1 Axis TO
3 games 1 Soviet vs 2 Axis TO
3 games 1TO vs 1 TO each
3 'over the top' games with all TOs each

I am of course talking about non deployment TOs (the 'deployment' TOs are the south, center, north ones right?).

The axis side can put their veterans in the slots where they get only 1 TO vs. the Soviet 2, and their newbies into the ones where they get 2 TOs vs the Soviet 1.

Tiberius

27 Feb 04, 20:44

p.s. I'm not going to shut up until I see some posts where my idea is clearly understood and disliked.

Foggy

27 Feb 04, 21:10

Menschenfresser

27 Feb 04, 21:49

Heinz57

27 Feb 04, 21:53

A quick note that I will be out of action until Thursday, did my best to get things up for another two days but didn't work. Anyway, once I'm on expect marathon sessions...probably best to advise my opponent when assigned, or if another player on the Axis is going to be delayed, too -- to match me with him.

Thanks & Hapy Hunting!

Heinz57

JoeBob

27 Feb 04, 22:23

Tiberius,

With all due respect, I just can't take you seriously until you take off that hat!!!

:coolban:

Okay, maybe I'm jealous of just how cool you look! Heh,heh.. :surprise:

JoeBob

Tiberius

27 Feb 04, 22:33

The problem Tiberius from my point of view is that the TOs don't balance out. So giving the Soviets one and giving the Axis one...doesn't make for a equal game necessarily. Nor does giving one two and another one make for an unequal game. At this point, with the minimal testing that's been for all the variations involved who knows what is balanced or unbalanced..

This is certainly a good argument against just going by a simple rule of thumb like: 'each player gets one option'. My system would allow us to further fine tune the predicted balance by arranging some game 'slots' that are considered balanced. ('well we think it's pretty even for the Soviets to get little Saturn and the Germans to get the Panzer division so we'll play 3 games like that. It's also pretty balanced for the Germans to get the Panzer army early and the Soviet to get all the TOs so we'll play 3 games like that, then we'll have 3 historical match ups, 2 all out matchups, and 3 that are deliberatly unbalanced for handicapping') - this is just an example off the top of my head and not how I think would be really the right setup. That would have to be negotiated.

I think to make it interesting the C&C ought to get so many "TO points"...say 8-12, if there are 12 players on a team. Then he distributes the eight points anyway he likes between his players. He can give some two, some one and others will get zero. But who gets what is kept secret from the other team.

As far as the TOs are concerned, everyone gets to choose a deployment for free and everything else (including little Saturn) costs one TO point to activate. So if you have zero points you can only choose a deployment.

The dolling out of TO points should come after match ups are decided...so the C&C can decide who might need one (if a rookie is going against a vet, for instance). This way no one will know what their opponent is going to do TO-wise until it happens. Puts the mystery of it all back in the game. Are they going to break out? Will 1st PzA show up? Has he released his Don forces? etc.

That's how I would organize if I were on the payroll.

This is a good idea also. EDIT: But note it also suffers from the 'options are unbalanced' flaw. We could correct that by giving the side with the better options fewer of them.

Tiberius

27 Feb 04, 22:35

Tiberius,

With all due respect, I just can't take you seriously until you take off that hat!!!

:coolban:

Okay, maybe I'm jealous of just how cool you look! Heh,heh.. :surprise:

JoeBob

It looks like you're trying to shoot it off anyway but I can't take you seriously until you sober up! Too much moonshine redneck!

CyberRanger

27 Feb 04, 22:50

I volunteer to get all TO's - think about it - if the Germans were rational
enough to pull the 1st PZ army back - don't you think Stalin would have thrown every unit possible to crush at least the pocket - if not more :devious:

And Stalin does ... if the 1st PZ army is called back, the 44th Soviet Army appears in hot pursuit in the 44th army deployment area just after 1st Panzer Armee enters map.

Tiberius

27 Feb 04, 22:55

Here's a variation on Mensch's idea: allow each side a specific number of each option. 'the Germans get x early Panzer division, y early Panzer army and z operation watchamacallit. The Russians get a early release of reinforcements, b use of army outside pocket, and c little Saturns. I think the deployment options should always be directly in the hands of the player.

JoeBob

27 Feb 04, 23:07

Hey, I make enough money to actually buy my liquor at the STORE okay?!!!

:drink:

Just be careful! My next post might actually contain some useful information that actually pertains to the tourney! (If I could actually get caught up on my round 3 moves, and other pending moves...)

But halfway seriously you guys, having everyone play the same scenario in the same way (static/predictable) takes some of the fun out of the tourney. I definitely vote for some adaptation of Tiberius's ideas/and others to generate some randomness in player and TO assignment, although we may need to skew things a little to balance out the fact that the Russians have less TO's to choose from.

Fortunately we have a lot of players signed up, and this increases the number of variables that can be factored in (if we want all matchups to be a little different).

Now, I wonder what brand of vodka I'll have to start buying.. :o

CyberRanger

27 Feb 04, 23:16

We could correct that by giving the side with the better options fewer of them.

I think that's the essence of the problem with this approach ... the concept of "better" is unclear and giving each side a different number of TO's may really through off the game balance.

After a lot of playtesting, this is the release of, what I think, will be a very interesting scenario. But, we should play it, at least at first, as the designer planned and tested it.

The "historical" version is not boring! We play many scenarios that have no TO's yet they are great games. I'm cheering for this to be one too.

I like both Mensch's and Tiberius ideas, but I think we should play a more conservative tourney first. By that, I mean at least keep the TO's in each game equal (as the scenario was designed to be.)

We can still make the overall tourney interesting by letting the CO's assign players to slots and having different types of games (historical, non-historical with 1 TO, etc.)

Foggy

27 Feb 04, 23:29

My point is that if Stalin realized that now the Germans were being realistic about the 6th army breakout chances - would'nt that option alone cause the Russians to throw everything including the kitchen sink etc. to stop a breakout - ie if the Germans choose the 1st PZ option - the Russians should get every possible unit available? :devil:

Tiberius

28 Feb 04, 00:44

We can still make the overall tourney interesting by letting the CO's assign players to slots and having different types of games (historical, non-historical with 1 TO, etc.)

So you like the slot idea!? :D

Tiberius

28 Feb 04, 00:51

The "historical" version is not boring! We play many scenarios that have no TO's yet they are great games. I'm cheering for this to be one too.

I like both Mensch's and Tiberius ideas, but I think we should play a more conservative tourney first. By that, I mean at least keep the TO's in each game equal (as the scenario was designed to be.)

We can still make the overall tourney interesting by letting the CO's assign players to slots and having different types of games (historical, non-historical with 1 TO, etc.)

Nobody said the historical version was boring - just that playing only historical games wouold make for a boring tournament.
I vote that we play a few games with historical, most of the games the way that Pelle recommends (in which each side gets 1 extra (non deployment) TO?) A game or two 'over the top' with all TOs, and a couple of games 'handicapped' for each side (one side with advantageous or more TOs) for the real newbies.

tigersqn

28 Feb 04, 00:57

I'm not sure I like that "handicapped" game idea.

A few historical, a few with 1 TO, a few with 2 TOs, a few b*lls to the wall with all TOs.

Tiberius

28 Feb 04, 01:01

Sorry one last post and then I'll shut up :hush:

I think what I was initially trying to drive at was that we have a splendid opportunity with all of the games being played to try out all different combinations of TOs or non TOs against each other. I think it would be a darn shame if we went with a rote formula (say of one TO each), and each team figured out what they thought was the best TO and everybody ended up playing those TOs against each other. See what I mean? I was trying to mandate trying out different combos just to see how the combos played out.
One game of early 1st Pz army entry vs. Don front outside pocket, one game of Thunderclap vs Little Saturn, one game of 1st Pz army vs Don reinforcements, etc., etc., all the way from all German TOs vs historical Russians to all Russian TOs vs historical Germans (well maybe not those extremes - but everything in between.)

KG_RangerBooBoo

28 Feb 04, 02:09

This is all well and good but I'm not sure I like the idea of being told what TO's I have to use.

JoeBob

28 Feb 04, 02:22

RangerBooBoo has a point. Maybe choosing TO's should in fact be up to the individual players, and this way the "variability" we are looking for will naturally appear. (I won't know what my opponent will choose until I find out the hard way!)

If everybody chooses the same TO's there may prove to be good reason for it (like it makes sense). I know I was looking forward to making those theatre decisions for myself (with playtest feedback to consider of course).

Hopefully some final decisons will be made by this weekend.

Who is the CO for the Germans?

nemo

28 Feb 04, 02:28

I'm not sure I like that "handicapped" game idea.

A few historical, a few with 1 TO, a few with 2 TOs, a few b*lls to the wall with all TOs.I tend to agree with that. I stand admittedly one of the lowest ranking here in ladder terms :dead: , but I would not like playing a veteran after he has been tied an arm in his back and his two feet together. Playing with TOs to smooth out discrepancies between newbies and vets may prove quite difficult to manage.

On a side note, Dagger5's mailbox must be full to the top as even the zipped file got bounced. If anyone here gets in touch with him, please let him know.

Nemo

tigersqn

28 Feb 04, 02:34

This is all well and good but I'm not sure I like the idea of being told what TO's I have to use.

I agree.

I don't mind being told I can only have 1 or 2 or however many TOs; just so I get to choose WHICH TO(s). ;)

And if you get to play all the TOs, even better.:devious:........or not :o

Panzerpelle

28 Feb 04, 03:56

Panzerpelle

28 Feb 04, 04:04

Pelle:

Can you define "penetration"? :devious:

(ie, German's occupy a * hex or move beyond a * hex?)

Or is the important part of that rule the "make contact", ie 6th Army and relief forces can touch each other?

:nuts: As English isnt my native language...and seeing what I have written I find the word penetrate a bit funny....The intent is the link up from outside to inside...AG DON entering a hex /w "*"....Not 6th A. Actual link up between 6th A and relife forces is not what I mean. The units of DON front would not be inactive if the German relife attempt reached the boundaries of the Pocket.

If some wants to help me to formulate it in good clear english...

Panzerpelle

28 Feb 04, 04:10

Pelle:

If the Soviet's elect to take "TO Release DON front reinforcements elsewhere" does the 1 VP per turn still start on turn 30 or does it start when the DON front reinforcements arrive?

Also, is the supply point placed in Kalach any sooner when that option is selected?

(I promise no more questions for awhile!)

The VP counter is timed on turn 30 regardless of TOs selected. The SP is also timed by turn...so the answer is no.

Panzerpelle

28 Feb 04, 04:12

Yes I am talking exactly about prehandicapped 'slots' for players to go into.
The # of TOs they get depend on which slot they are in, and there are pre-defined slots to allow for a variety of different TO options to be played against each other. I don't think anyone really understands my idea or if they do noone is buying it. So be it. Although even now you are proposing a simplified variation of my idea. We could have a certain number of games with over balanced TOs (2 to 1) and teams can put there newbies into the easy games and vets into the hard ones. In this system the slots would be:

3 games historical
3 games 2 Soviet vs 1 Axis TO
3 games 1 Soviet vs 2 Axis TO
3 games 1TO vs 1 TO each
3 'over the top' games with all TOs each

I am of course talking about non deployment TOs (the 'deployment' TOs are the south, center, north ones right?).

The axis side can put their veterans in the slots where they get only 1 TO vs. the Soviet 2, and their newbies into the ones where they get 2 TOs vs the Soviet 1.
Are you playing Golf? I understand perfectly now...But I am only the designer and not a player so...It is possible to do.

KG_RangerBooBoo

28 Feb 04, 09:37

One other point about being forced to play certain TO's in a game, there is no surprise that way. If I know that I'm in the slotted game with the 1PZ Army early release and the 57PZ Corps deployed in the center and 2nd Guards Army deployed in the south, then it just makes it another set piece battle with no chance of throwing a monkey wrench into the works. The other way I am going to have to gather some intelligence,something my wife will tell you I don't have much of, on what the godless Commies are up too. I would suggest that we be given a certain number of TO's and let us choose our own path. Sure you will find a games that end up with the same combination but that just gives a bigger base of comparison for those TO's for testing purposes.

Tiberius

28 Feb 04, 11:51

OK I get the gist. Just be warned that if most of the games are one TO each (or other rote formula) The teams are going to figure out which ones they think are best and 90% will choose those making for a lot of similar games. That's OK with me. I have to admit I don't feel like volunteering for an adverse TO situation, and I take Nemo's point about not wanting a handicapped game. I wouldn't have wanted one as a newbie and still don't as someone merely 'handicapped' :whlchr: I think now we ought to have volunteers for some historical games, some 'over the top' full TO games and the rest be standard scenario rules.
I think it ought to be up to the two team commanders and Mantis to hammer out the rest of the details (of course I and others will always be here in the 'peanut gallery' :p
Who is the German commander? How are the undecided team people going to be divided up? I say choose soon or be substitutes! :devious: How is the substitution system going to work?
We can always hope that people drop from each team at an equal rate so that their opponents can be pitted against each other. No that won't work because we will have wasted the team in each game. We have to try to insure that each game gets completed.

nemo

28 Feb 04, 12:40

Any veteran stepping out to take charge as German CO? Come on Kameraden, kein Angst haben... ;)

There is still a week before the tourney starts but the COs and Mantis will probably have a lot to iron out until then - so the sooner the German CO is commissioned, the better.

Mantis

29 Feb 04, 03:56

Mein Herren!

As asked by Wespointer, I have mailed the Wintergewitter 42 scenario file (in its 1.49 version) to the players who have signed up for the German side.

Nemo
The scenario should be available to both sides at the same time. Please also send the old one to the rest of the players (Russian/undecided). The idea was that the scenario would only be released shortly before the tourney was to start, so no one could get very far in messing around with it.

Mantis

29 Feb 04, 03:56

Thanks Nemo ... remember gents ... do NOT redistribute this file.

The intent is to let everyone get a better feel for how the TO's work so you can contribute to the discussion on how to setup the tourney.
Now that it's done, I don't mind that people have it, as long as everyone has it.

Mantis

29 Feb 04, 03:58

so the slots would be for example:
early release of 19th panzer vs. Don front outside pocket
early release of 1st Pz Army vs. Don front outside pocket
early release of 19th Pz Army vs. Don reinforcements outside pocket
early release of 1st Pz Army vs. Don reinforcements outside pocket
both German against Don reinforce outside pocket.
both German against Don front outside pocket.
both Russian against early release of 1st Pz army
both Russian against early release of 19th Panzer
and last but not least:
All German against historical Russian
All Russian against historical German
oh yeah and of course:
historical Russian vs historical German

The deployment options (Norht,South,Center) would remain in the hands of the players. We could ask for volunteers to play the bad sides or choose them b