POA2: Are the topographic maps such a great idea?

[Don Maddox]

Now before everyone goes off a cliff, let me explain why I raised this question. There are a couple of really huge issues with the topographic maps.

1. Topographic maps of suibale scale are extremely difficult to come by.
2. The BMP map files are GIGANTIC.

Now let me explain each of these statements.

First, let's talk about getting topographic maps. Experienced wargamers are already familiar with how difficult it is to come up with maps of any battle. I don't think 1:50,000 maps are going to work all that well. 1:25,000 or smaller is going to be much better, but finding maps of that scale is really difficult for places like Iraq, Iran, North Korea, etc. I have found some that might work and am working to get my hands on them, but this gets expensive very quickly! How many people are going to be willing to pay $10-100 per map sheet? Not many I would guess. That's if you can even find the right map.

Second, the standard maps that came with POA2 use hexes that are 70 pixles accross, which in turn is 100 meters in game terms. You can easily see that even a modest sized map is going to be very large. Since there are strict limitations on how large .bmp files can be for ADC2, a large map will require the topographic image to be broken down into segments, thus further complicated the task. On top of that, .bmp files are huge compared to .jpg files. They are so large that even reducing their colors to 256 (or less) only puts in dent in the problem. The Albaquerque map that came with the game is 529,136 KB. That's half a GiG folks! That will barely fit on a CD-ROM by itself. There is no way were going to be able to host a map archive with giant files like this. Even maps of 3-5 MB are beyond what most users are going to be willing to download. Let's not even get into the issue of bandwidth or server space.

POA2 is capable of displaying maps that use a "symbol set" just like what you see for the close in zoom level, only for all the zoom levels. Instead of a topographic map, you would see something that looked like the zoom 1 view, but everything would be smaller. The only problem with this is that HPS didn't see fit to include a symbol set for zoom 2 and 3. There is nothing to keep a scenario author from making one, but I really think there ought to be a standard set supplied by HPS. Otherwise, we have no choice but to use a topo map as making a full set of symbols would take months.

[Ivan Rapkinov]

.bmps are by their nature the easiest thing to manipulate in a windoze setting - but they're a bastard to work with.

One solution is to make the topo maps 256 or less (much less)colours - we don't need the colour at that scale, and truth be told, one yellow on a desert map isn't that different from another.

or we make smaller maps.

[tws71669]

This is something I have brought up before but I don't think people are really seeing what I mean.

Any map data cann be encoded into a DEM format which contains all the correct and accurate topographic data but the file size is comparatively small since it is all encoded as 1's and 0's
That data can be pulled into a converter free for download from many GIS software newbie sights for free. Once converted a graphic .bmp file can be derived from the numeric data which will be much larger as Don pointed out regarding .bmp file sizes but the initial data is not.

Once you have that DEM data decoded into a graphics format you can drag it into ADC2. Many third party freeware apps will permit users to convert sattalite photos and scanned images into topographic format. This topographic data graphically resembles such a kind of map.

I think everyone is looking at it from the graphics end of the file not he raw data end. I can grab DEM data from any location in the world becuase such sat data is available through GIS servers from all sorts of countries. My original maps of Baghdad and Grozny can be "topofied" somewhat easily. That's what I am working on.

The real drawback to this is that it forces users to use yet another source for thier map making. And it can be somewhat complicated to the uneducated.
The advantages are that any location in the world down to 1m per pixel can be gathered, the file sizes are greatly smaller, and the detail is exactly as the realworld. For wargamers wanting the most exact information.... GIS data is the best and most openly available source. Converting the smaller DEM files into topographic graphical .bmp maps is a step more complicated and dragging them into ADC2 (which I can't afford just yet) would be the goal.

Clear as mud? good... but I really hope I could shed some light on another more co-operative source of data. Let scen. makers download the DEM data in small size and work it up from there.
It does not solve the problem of the end product being HUGE in size.
BUT.... we could use edonkey. Just an idea.
I would be happy to at least try hosting edonkey files once people have something to share.

Thanks
-Tiberius

[Don Maddox]

Okay, let's just say for the sake of argument that we had access to all the topographic data we could want. Even if we actually had excellent maps of any scale we desired, the problem would still be significant. The bmp images are so large I'm worried that there will be no effective way to transfer them between users. I am experimenting with ways to make the files smaller. Reducing the colors is a first step, zipping the files when they are done is another. Still, we're talking about files that are fairly large.

I'm working on it...

[tws71669]

Yea, we're back to square one with a big fat file once all is said and done.

Does a final map in POA2 have its file size greatly increased due to the bmp or to all the environmental data coded to the map?

maybe some of us could at least make the "raw" map and let individual users tailor the terrain effects and such to thier tastes as per any given scenario. I figure all that LOS data alone has gotta have a big effect on the file size. Maybe it should be handled on the scenario makers end. I don't think this is a really helpfull solution as Don has mentioned a lot of the difficulties are popping up. But maybe it would thin things down enough to be manageable.

[Don Maddox]

Actually, the files that go with the map -- and with a whole scenario for that matter -- are not very large. We can transfer user-created scenarios and .map files to each other without much difficulty. the problem is with the bmp images used for the topographic maps.

Hub has shown me a way to edit the zoom 2 and zoom 1 graphics that came with the game. What this will do (if successful) is make all three zoom levels look like the close up zoom. No topographic maps need be used if the scenario author didn't want to. How many of you would be willing to play on such maps? They would look just like the "up-close" view, only everything would be smaller. These maps wouldn't be very large in file size..

The only drawback that I can so far, is that there is no reasonable way to add "shaded" elevations for this view. The way the current graphics system is setup basically prohibits this for all intents and purposes. It is theoretically possible to do it, but the sheer number of terrain variations that I would have to make would be astronomical. I'm afraid we'll be stuck using the "little pink dots" to see elevations. Did I mention I hate this graphics setup?

[Combatengineer]

Snip

Hub has shown me a way to edit the zoom 2 and zoom 1 graphics that came with the game. What this will do (if successful) is make all three zoom levels look like the close up zoom. No topographic maps need be used if the scenario author didn't want to. How many of you would be willing to play on such maps? They would look just like the "up-close" view, only everything would be smaller. These maps wouldn't be very large in file size..

Snip

Don, I could easily play without the Topo maps, I just want a good Bde size box to Play In! :cheeky:

[MikeSinn]

Don, I could easily play without the Topo maps, I just want a good Bde size box to Play In! :cheeky:
I agree. Having topo maps is unnecessary in my mind. I actually might like having a more "Standard" game display. Not having any experience reading topo maps, I find trying to interpret the elevation lines and "eyeballing" LOS is difficult at best.

[Ivan Rapkinov]

Okay...

using a 13.6 MB .bmp of a 1:12500 Port au Prince, Haiti map, by reducing the colours to 256, I get 4.5MB. Reducing to 16 colours, using error diffusion, and reduced colour bleeding, I get a final size of 2.5MB. Examples below of the differences :)

16 Bit image

http://digger.falldowngoboom.org/POA/PAP16bit.jpg


256 colour image

http://digger.falldowngoboom.org/POA/PAP256.bmp


16 colour image

http://digger.falldowngoboom.org/POA/PAP16.bmp


as you can see the 16 colour image looks washed out, but is still more than servicable :)

[Don Maddox]

It's not quite that easy though Ivan. The bmp must first be resized to so that each pixel equals 1.43 meters (I think that's right) or else ADC2 won't scale it right. ADC2 uses 70 pixle hexes for the standard zoom, and the map must be resized so that it works with this. Otherwise, you'll end up with 70 pixel hexes that are 825 meters or some crazy thing.

Resize the map to the appropriate proportions (if you have not already done so) and then see what you come up with.

[Ivan Rapkinov]

okay - resizing...

using the standard map scale...

100m = 64 pixels

rescaling to 1.43m per pixel -> 100m = 69 pixels

16 bit = 16.4 MB
256 colour = 5.4 MB
16 Colours = 2.7 MB

that's using a 1967 1:12500 US Military mapscan.

[Don Maddox]

5 MB isn't exactly small, but I guess I can live with that (not that I have a choice). 16 colors is probably a little too harsh for most maps, but it might be okay for a few simple ones. 256 color looks like the way to go.

[tws71669]

Много Камрадов Приветствиям!
Я недавн заканчивал организовать мое
русское воинское собрание карты 1:50k как просмотренные
изображения. Почти вся крышка архивов 360+ больше всего Ближнего
Востока от египетского sinai к сирийской границе, всему из
Golan, много из Украины, Belarus, и некоторых других бывших
положений клиента. Эти of course, после того как я
маркированы и после того как я напечатаны на русском языке поэтому он
может показаться немногой сверхсчетным играть западные усилия пока
смотрящ советские карты типа в cryllic. Но я знаю некоторыми
изображения хотят людьми, котор просмотренные точного ландшафтного
вещества поэтому меня буду радостен к email любому jpegs или
если bmp более мало чем, то 4mbs, котор я смог сделать то
слишком. Я мог вывесить более большие одни на учете yahoo если
будет достаточный интерес. Эти карты покрывают большой много полных
километров в восточном europe и Ближнем Востоке. Я надеюсь я
может найти мои иранские одни этот викэнд. Препятствуйте мне знать
если ваше заинтересованное.
-T

Many Greetings Comrades!
I have recently finished organizing my 1:50k Russian military map collection as scanned images. Almost all 360+ files cover most of the middle east from Egyptian sinai to Syrian border, all of the Golan, much of Ukraine, Belarus, and some other former client states. These are of course, marked and printed in russian so it can seem a little odd to be playing western forces while looking at soviet style maps in cryllic. But I know some folks wanted scanned images of accurate topographical stuff so I will be glad to email anyone the jpegs or if the bmp is smaller than 4mbs I could do that too. I might post larger ones on a yahoo account if there is enough interest. These maps cover a great many total kilometers in eastern europe and the middle east. I hope I can find my Iranian ones this weekend.
Let me know if your interested.
-T
:(

[Old&Slow]

I was thinking of getting ADC ( don`t mind buying a stand alone editor as well as the Game ) but the problems you experienced guys are having is off putting to say the least.

Am I correct in that somewhere Don said the ADC version for sale will not produce POA2 Maps without additional files ?

Do you introduce the original Maps into ADC with a scanner ?

Does HPS have any plans to produce a ADC Map making tutorial for PO2 ?
Just IMHO, but it seems the games with the longest life, and perhaps long sales, seem to be the ones that make Scenario/Map building easy.

Thanks

[Don Maddox]

Am I correct in that somewhere Don said the ADC version for sale will not produce POA2 Maps without additional files?
Not sure what you mean here. Of course, one would need a topographic imagae of some sort if you planned to create a map that way. I'm currently working on a project that may allow us to do maps without the need for a topographic image. It can be done now, but the player would be limited to the close-in zoom level. I should be finished with it within a few days. More to follow.

Do you introduce the original Maps into ADC with a scanner ?


Unless you get the images off the internet or something. They need to be in .bmp format to work with ADC2. If they are currently .jpg or .gif files, then I would use Paint Shop Pro or your favorite graphics program to resize them and turn them into .bmp files. too easy. Hardcopy maps would, of course, need to be scanned.

Does HPS have any plans to produce a ADC Map making tutorial for PO2? Just IMHO, but it seems the games with the longest life, and perhaps long sales, seem to be the ones that make Scenario/Map building easy.

I don't know. I asked Scott about it and he said "maybe." I may do a tutorial of my own within a few weeks. We'll see.

[Old&Slow]

Not sure what you mean here. Of course, one would need a topographic imagae of some sort if you planned to create a map that way. I'm currently working on a project that may allow us to do maps without the need for a topographic image. It can be done now, but the player would be limited to the close-in zoom level. I should be finished with it within a few days. More to follow.



I ment that I recall from another Thread, you having mucho problems getting an off the shelf version ADC to work with PO2, and that Scott had made an updated version of the ADC .exe. or a tool set available ??, or am I wrong.

Thanks !

[Don Maddox]

The off-the-shelf version of ADC2 is bug-free and works as it should. My problem with it is that it doesn't have the features it needs to make POA2 editing as user-friendly as it could be. As it stands now, it can be done, but it takes some effort. The beta 2.15 version adds some features to make things a bit easier. I simply haven't been able to get that version to work so far.

[fanfar]

Sorry, my English is bad :).
I'm a student from Poland. I'm intresting with GIS, maps and Earth Sciences. I'm looking for good quality, topo maps (50k, 100k) of the W and EW part of Ukraine. (In exchange) I know many (non English language) www resources and direct links for maps of Poland, Ukraine, East Europe, Russia, former soviet republics and many others (topo maps, war and special military maps, historical maps).

Thanks