Close combat, DF, and the fog-of-war

[HercMighty]

Playing scenerio 2 I still can't seem to figure out why even when I put a unit right on top of 4 terrorists why combat cannot be initiated. Even trying to do DF's myself has not worked. For my soldiers I get "need to be emplaced" and I haven't been able to figure out how to get them to do that. Also I can move helicopters around and I think I have the altitude working, but I cannot give them DF's or CAS's that work. This is becoming confusing.

Also, if I know where a tagert is, are we just supposed to move a group there and they are supposed to figure out the rest? Or do you give it an area fire mission? I am somewhat confused :nuts:

[Don Maddox]

Playing scenerio 2 I still can't seem to figure out why even when I put a unit right on top of 4 terrorists why combat cannot be initiated. Even trying to do DF's myself has not worked. For my soldiers I get "need to be emplaced" and I haven't been able to figure out how to get them to do that. Also I can move helicopters around and I think I have the altitude working, but I cannot give them DF's or CAS's that work. This is becoming confusing.

Also, if I know where a tagert is, are we just supposed to move a group there and they are supposed to figure out the rest? Or do you give it an area fire mission? I am somewhat confused :nuts:
Normally, units will fire on enemy units as they see fit. As POA2 is supposed to simulate combat from the battion/brigade commander's point of view, you shouldn't need to micromanage your units by giving every little order.

On the flip side, I have discovered that the Al Qaeda units are damned hard to "get a grip on." They seem to be able to play hide and seek very well. I'm still confused as to how DF works as well.

[Don Maddox]

Scott,

A lot of people are complaining about the DF/FOW implementation. After doing some serious testing, I am simply forced to agree with them. As it stands right now, it is nearly impossible to understand what exactly is going on and why. It’s also difficult to separate what is a FOW feature and what may be a bug. Here’s what I’m talking about.
Right now, the display will often show numerous enemy units on the map. I understand that these can be revealed by assorted S2 methods outside the player’s control such as satellite recon, aerial photo, sensors, etc. Fair enough, but this creates an assortment of problems that can be confusing even with a detailed analysis of the map. Players can “see” a unit, but often it appears that no friendly unit can actually engage it. But even this is difficult to determine as there seems to be no way to determine what exactly each individual unit can actually see (I’m not talking about terrain, I’m talking about terrain AND enemy units). There really needs to be an easy process to click on a unit and everything that particular unit can “see” (and engage) is displayed.

The terrorist scenarios are where this problem really reveals the weakness of the current interface. There are all sorts of enemy units on the map (I always play on setting 3), but they can’t be engaged. Even moving friendly units right into the hex with them often results in nothing. I understand that a high degree of FOW is realistic, but surely moving units directly into a hex will determine if they are there or not, yes?

The way DF is handled is equally confusing. It may even be working correctly, but I can’t tell because it’s simply too confusing right now. The interface is just really non-intuitive when it comes to how to use DF, what can be seen and what can’t, and giving simple orders. I feel like I’m fighting the interface to do anything rather than fighting the battle. I’m simply stumped by a lot of what’s going on (as many of the players are), and the bugs are not making the process any easier.

[HPS]

I think most of these problems are due to people wanting the FOW, but also wanting to “micromanage” their force. However, the two options are mutually exclusive, so when players regularly select individual targets for their units it means they end up “fighting” the FOW. The higher-level FOW package is designed for a player assuming the TF Commander position. It becomes meaningless otherwise. In other words, once a player starts “hopping” into the line units there is no reason to use the higher FOW levels anyway, since he’s already seeing everything every unit in the force sees.

So I would strongly suggest that players wanting to set individual targets on a regular basis make their FOW the “standard wargame level”. It still keeps unknown enemy units hidden or partly known, but things will jibe across the board (and staff officers) and just won’t be so confusing. That’s why I added that option - it gives the player the same information he’d eventually get anyway, but without all the hassles and frustration.

Players wanting to use the extreme FOW should let the AI do the grunt work for them, limiting themselves to allocating support, issuing higher level movement commands and only occasionally coming “down” to give targeting orders to individual line units.

You are correct that units can often see, or know a unit is there, but can’t engage it. This is absolutely realistic, if confusing - often more to a real commander than the guy at his computer. There is no easy way around this that I can see, at least not without completely disregarding the FOW. However, to make things a little easier the map display can be limited to only those enemy (and friendly) units that are actually sighted (the checkbox is on the Location Information Form). Remember, though, the FOW limits the display to the currently selected unit only (unless you are using the Std Wargame setting).

You can also limit the display to only those objects seen within the last so many minutes - which can also reduce clutter and “false reports”.

As for what a unit can target, you’re right that there really isn’t a way to see all the potential enemy targets for a friendly unit. I never felt this option was necessary, or even desirable since it goes completely against the FOW. However, what is available instead is the “reverse” of that - if you right click on the desired target location you will get a list of all the friendly units that can engage the target. That’s actually exactly what you want, and it’s more useful to insure that the enemy force is effectively engaged. Plus using it doesn’t automatically violate the FOW as picking a friendly unit first does.

Units in the same location will (or at least should) engage in close combat, which is handled in a way outside of the normal DF/IF routines. While in close combat, they are normally prohibited from firing. However, as soon as I get a chance, I’ll go back and check that the routines are working properly.

As for the bugs, I apologize for them... and I honestly thought we had them (at least we hadn’t gotten them in testing). Thanks for the files, and we’ll take care of them as fast as we can.

One last thing I want to reiterate, though, and I can’t stress this enough.... is that FOW and individual target selection are both not possible at the same time. You either want to be the TF commander or you want to be able to jump into the individual tanks. Speaking as one myself, though, I know the thing with wargamers is they want to do both. But in this case that leads to a situation where you’re trying to use a screwdriver to hammer in a nail. ;)

But, having said all that, by now you know I’m always open to suggestions.

Thanks again,

-Scott

[HPS]

One other thing I forgot to mention is that in the Kirtland AFB scenarios, most of the “enemy” units are really civilians. Friendly units will usually not target them with DF and will never use close combat against them.

There may be other issues at work here (we’ve made a lot of changes in the past couple of weeks I haven’t been able to test everything), but I wanted to make sure that wasn’t at the root of at least some of them.

In any case, when I get a chance I’ll play that scenario again myself just to see if I get some of the same issues.

-Scott

[Don Maddox]

It's very difficult to get used to "seeing" units that you can't see. :confused:

I understand the sim is meant to model combat from the view of the TF commander, and I try to refrain from micromanaging the battlefield as much as possible. I guess some of this is natural as every other wargame forces the player to take a direct hand in matters at one time or another. I was also attempting to use the lower echelon units in order to "verfiy" if certain features were working or not.

I'll give the DF interface another try and see what I come up with. I may have been working backwards with it. Now that I have a better understanding of what is is trying to do I will - hopefully - be able to make better use of it.

[HercMighty]

If we are supposed to play from the TF frame of mind, then why can't we have more control within the Staff Officer screens? Why don't we have options here to tell HQ's to attack, defend, investigate or other such orders targets and locations? I tell an HQ with 3 platoons to move to a location and when they get there I see enemy units (I have played with "none fow" to test this) and my units will do nothing even if they are fired upon. If someone fired at me, if I could see them or not I would shoot back.

Either I am not understanding how to play or there are bugs happening but I feel like I have to micromanage and that seems to cause more problems. This game is very confusing and when you try to do what you suggest it doesn't seem to work.

One thing that might help that I like about Airborne Assault:Highway to the Reich is when I select a HQ and then push "shift-down arrow" I can see what the AI has planned for all units.

This could be a really good game, and I wanted something more modern day to play, but at this point it just seems unplayable.

[HPS]

On FOW, I know how it can seem so confusing. However, as you get used to how it works, and what display options are available, it will become easier to sort through. This is one of those times where there are no shortcuts, and you have to figure out what works best for you (which is why there are so many display options and ways to do things - we found everyone eventually ended up with a strong individual preference).

The key, though, is to figure out what kind of game you want to play in advance (hands on vs. hands off at the lower levels), and set the FOW level accordingly. Then try to stick to it as much as possible. Otherwise you end up frustrated fighting the FOW, when you could have gotten exactly the same game but a much better experience with a different FOW setting.

[HercMighty]

On FOW, I know how it can seem so confusing. However, as you get used to how it works, and what display options are available, it will become easier to sort through. This is one of those times where there are no shortcuts, and you have to figure out what works best for you (which is why there are so many display options and ways to do things - we found everyone eventually ended up with a strong individual preference).

The key, though, is to figure out what kind of game you want to play in advance (hands on vs. hands off at the lower levels), and set the FOW level accordingly. Then try to stick to it as much as possible. Otherwise you end up frustrated fighting the FOW, when you could have gotten exactly the same game but a much better experience with a different FOW setting.

I have been trying to get Scenerio 2 to work as the good guys. As far as I am concerned all these features you say we have are bugs. Has anyone gotten scenerio 2 to work? I have yet to be able to shoot at anyone no matter what I have tried. I have never gotten a LOS that doesn't say blocked, and the only action has been watching my air units to be shot down. I have tried given orders to my HQ with formation checked (no others one checked) and moving it into the city, to just leaving the original orders available to the squads at the beggining. If I have FOW 1 set, except for what I believe to be the bad guys HQ identified as an unknown number of personnel I see no other groups even show up in the intel staff officer screen.

Maybe a real manual should be produced with a better tutorial. What seems to be evident to the makers seems downright hair brained from my point of view. How about taking Scenerio 2 and making a tutorial to go along with that? The tutorial that came with the game to me helps nothing. It just shows you where somethings are and that is it.

I would really like to see this game work, and I am sure my frustration is showing. But hitting the turn button 30 times and not seeing or shooting at anyone is a bit frustrating. Also it says I don't have enough units at the objective. What objective? I have the option for showing the victory objective but I don't see anything on the map.

Comments are much welcome, if anyone has gotten it to work please outline what you did so I can give it a try.

[HercMighty]

Other thing I have found is at the beggiining of the scenerio there are units on a road together. Using the point to point LOS tool a unit that is right next to the other is 100% blocked. No wonder I cannot target anyone, it seems to me that LOS is not working right especially in an urban enviroment.

[HercMighty]

Here is a pic.

[Don Maddox]

That is interesting. I'll get Scott to take a loot at that. Are you seeing the same kind of blockage around roads or urban areas in other scenarios?

[HercMighty]

That is interesting. I'll get Scott to take a loot at that. Are you seeing the same kind of blockage around roads or urban areas in other scenarios?

I really haven't played any of the others. I have been trying to get this one to work. I figured once I could play this one from start to finish as it seems straight forward then I could move on to the others comfortable in the knowledge I knew what was going on with the game mechanics.

[MikeSinn]

That is interesting. I'll get Scott to take a loot at that. Are you seeing the same kind of blockage around roads or urban areas in other scenarios?
I actually don't have a problem with the LOS example Hercmighty provided above. From the screen shot, it appears that LOS couldn't be established between two infantry units 95 meters apart in a built up urban environment. That seems about right to me.

Even in my little downtown, getting a clear LOS to 12 - 20 people almost 100 meters away would be extremely difficult. I would expect to be forced to use close combat to engage infantry in that environment.

Now having said that, I do believe that there are still bugs in the close combat routines. It seems extremely unusual to have 2 or 3 friendly units sitting in the same hex as 2 or 3 enemy units and nothing happens turn after turn...

Just my 2 cents (actually somewhat less after taxes and inflation are factored in)

[HercMighty]

I would like to see 2 things:

1. After combat phase is over, an indication on the map from points where enemy fire came from but no units were sighted.

2. "Weapons Tight" and "Weapons Free" settings. This would then work with return fire. Depending on the setting if a unit takes fire they will either return it or just take cover.

Right now I don't think return fire is modeled and wonder why. As I have stated before if someone shoots at me I would return fire at that location if I could see them or not.

[Rocky]

I'd also point out with the current sighting/combat model Scenario 2 is far too short. Currently it's a race to get units into town on the off chance that they may engage in combat. If this is a patrol several hours would be a much more appropriate timescale.

[tws71669]

I can't think of a historical or recent example of what appears to be happening with the close combat in scn.2
If then enemy is in the same building as your troops, there is going to be some kind of exchange of fire unless the enemy or yourself have decided to all hide at once under the beds and closets of said building being afraid to stick your head out.
I would like to know if friendly units set a building on fire or popped smoke into a structure what the enemy units would do. I have been trying to mimic this but haven't been succesfull. The manual says these things can be done. I don;t understand how I can have my units in the same urban hex as the enemy and not have some kind of idea if that hewx is really empty or not.

[krigsgal]

I do not find it strange, that several soldiers can stand within a hex not knowing of each other. There could for examble be one or more walls between them. Just think at Saddam. It could have happened, that the soldiers couldn't find him, and then they would have stood les than 1 meter away from his hide. So that seems to be realistic enough.

But one thing is sure - it is boring not to be able to fight the enemy, especially when you know that he is within a few meters (this is a realistic wargame, so I want to make war, not love :nuts: ).

So is it possible with one of following options (maybe one of them is in the game or maybe something better, then please enlighten me):

1. A new closer zoom-level. So that you can order your troops to walk within and outside the buildings or/and from house to house and search the ground for the enemy.

2. Or just 'simply' (of course it is not simple) ad a buttom: 'search the enemy' or 'seek and destroy' or .... So that you can do something instead of waiting and waiting and nothing happens.

What do you think? Am I totally wrong?

[meade95]

I definitely agree.....for close combat....there needs to be some sort of option....that allows you as TFC to order...."Search area"....or "Seek and Destory"....

Close combat definitely needs to be ironed out more so then it is.

I really want to enjoy this game. I think it has a great potential.....however I also think maybe it is too much a "tweener" between other war games.

Doesn't allow for actual hands-on (for lack of a better term) close combat...but at the same time doesn't offer a longer - slow paced strategic role because of the limitations with how large (long -time wise) the scenarios can be...

[Don Maddox]

I disagree with the notion that enemy units should be able to occupy the same hex without establishing contact. While it is possible, of course, for this to happen on some level in real life, there has to be some limitations placed on the level of abstraction. Otherwise, the player is almost forced into the role of spectator with little or no input. Yes, that can happen to a degree in real life as well (think Black Hawk Down), however, such a sim would nearly be unplayable from a wargamer's perspective.

POA2 is not a sub-tactical level simulation like Operation Flashpoint. The 100 meter hex is the standard "scale" of the game. So the player has to have some type of reasonable expectation about what he can or can't influence. Allowing enemy combatants to occupy the same hex without establishing contact is going too far in my opinion.

Just my 2 cents.

[Rocky]

Within a 100m x 100m area it is quite possible for units not to see each other. In urban terrain they could very easily be in separate buildings. Hiding a few companies of tanks might be challenging, but it's possible for small numbers of infantry.

Conceptually that's fabulous, but in terms of a game this causes a few problems. Players can be given the objective of engaging the enemy and be unable to force contact. Possibly realistic, definitely dull.

If my mission is to engage the enemy then at the very least I'd want some way to order troops to search the hex, as opposed to the current system which seems to assume units take a basically defensive position upon stopping. That's my impression - anyone know if this is correct?

The point is there needs to be someway to at least increase the chance of forcing contact, if not to force it outright, from both a game and from a simulation point-of-view.

[tws71669]

I disagree with the notion that enemy units should be able to occupy the same hex without establishing contact.
Just my 2 cents.
Yet, as I undersatnd the rules this is pretty much how it is portrayed.
"
Close combat occurs when opposing ground units occupy the same location. It represents a wide variety of combat actions that happen at very close range and are outside the scope of the database values,

SNIP
3-3.1 Initiating Close Combat

A close combat situation is initiated when a unit moves into a location containing one or more enemy units. "

SNIP

You get the idea... It doesn't really say clearly that CC only occurs under certain conditions... it says that it occurs WHEN units exist in the same hex. That seems to contradict some of the FOW stuff in the manual. So I think what is really happening is that those conditions occur AFTER FOW has been resolved but that is not what the rules say...
anyone have more insight?