View Full Version : Italian Campaign v3.0 vs Dickie Bertha
9th September 1943
After the successful campaign in North Africa the Allied joint command debated where to strike next. Winston Churchill argued very strongly for a push into Germany via Italy, the "soft underbelly of Europe". Indeed it made perfect sense as the invading allied armies were flush with success, the ranks of their premier divisions full of veteran soldiers and they could draw on supply from North African ports protected by total superiority in the Med Sea. Preparations were made and after a successful campaign in Sicily, the American, Brtish and other allied armies were ready to cross the straits of Messina and start climbing up the boot of Italy.
Communique to Aliied Central Command
Elements of the British 46th and 56th Divisions together with elements of the US 36th and 45th Divisions carried out an amphibious assault in the area of Salerno early yesterday morning. Contact has been made with the enemy's 16th Panzer Division in and around the bridgehead area.
The mood at allied command was not good. The beachead at Salerno, though well stocked in troops and supplies had not broken out. Strong German artillery positions on the hills surrounding Salerno, centered aroung the village of Avellino, were providing accurate fire support to the troops containing the landing. Meanwhile allied naval units had pounded the airfields around Napoli. The only positive news for the allied commanders was the link up of the Salerno beach head with the troops of the British XIII corps coming up from the South.
Dicke Bertha
10 Feb 04, 19:21
Generalfeldmarschall Kesselring took of his glasses and turned to the men in the room, with that strange smile on his face.
"Well gentlemen, our intelligence so far is not impressive, but this is not as bad as one might have expected. We hold a line east-west from Salerno, and orders are to slowly give ground, while punishing the Engländer as much as possible. We have the line more or less secure, with some divisions in reserve. At some point, we will have to withdraw, as the enemy's resources are vastly superior. The responsibility for not striking at the Salerno beachhead is mine, I considered the enemy already far too strong in Calabria, making any counterattacks pointless, with the only prospect of heavy losses to our panzergrenadier regiments. However, I have ordered Luftwaffe to hit the British navy, presently in bombarment action off Napoli, and preliminary reports speak of tremendous success".
Here the old Luftwaffe general turned and gently smiled to himself.
Kesselring put his glasses on again and struck at the map with his strong finger.
"Gentlemen, this is my plan. At this moment and location... "ZAHJDÖ Bkksd8732riugbtr (decoding not possible here)
take up "fdsglkasrhgo45" ...anzer Korps will strike and deliver the final rites to the 9089432q068594387945iu4v (decoding not possible here)...
The Daily Telegraph..
"..our troops have finally stromed Salerno town and now have a secure beach head already teeming with troops poised for a breakout. Monty and Ike have expressed their concern at the tardiness of the breakthrough but are optimistic of a speedy advance up the boot. German prisoners were in high spirits proud of the achievements against such a very well supplied and stocked enemy. It seems that the Boche is throwing some his premier divisions into the fight with the 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich having beong identified on the left flank of the allied advance..."
Dicke Bertha
14 Feb 04, 13:10
"Very well gentlemen, I understand that Salerno has fallen", Albert Kesselring said, "but it really changes nothing. Luftwaffe keeps hitting this area, and reports are encouraging, the enemy is being bled off". The man in the baggy pants fired off a broader-than-normal smile, "and we still have this tremendous possibility to"..."lkjhguklwajhertq3427557q346 gh"(decoding failed)..."panzer reserve soon".
From the Diary of Private J T O'Calahan US 3rd Division
"Darn war!!! We've been stuck here for two weeks now and its just like Pa said the war in Flanders was. Digging in and exchanging shells with the Krauts.
The terrain suits them as its all mountains, hills and scrublands and its a hard fight to dislodge them. Them para regiments of theirs certainly have our respect. They could have done with some of the eytie divisions we fought against in the desert..."
Dicke Bertha
23 Feb 04, 16:03
..."and the Kampfgruppe, quickly assembled from units pulled out of the line or resting, comprising Spähtrupps, mobile PAK, an infantry regiment and a panzer Bn, destroyed the airlanding in 10th Army's back within a week, with outmost efficiency. The Finns should come here and study our motti-technique...". The Ia of the 76th infantry division dryly concluded, "As we speak, the US 82nd Airborne is headed towards nice dry quarters in our POW camps, they will survive the war".
The big man couldn't believe his luck. When reports of an airlanding in the back of 10th Army came in, he almost wrote in his diary "I have the terrible feeling that the whole thing is beginning to slide".
"Gentlemen", he rose, "I believe it is time to execute Fall Eva".
easy task it seems ,maybe its because of the good weather in italy
Not quite becker...more the good defensive terrain Dickie has at his disposal
Dicke Bertha
20 Mar 04, 09:18
November 1st, 1943
"That fool", Big Albert was not smiling, "that arrogant SS ###, what was he thinking, charging the British alone like that, what are the losses?"
"Apparently the entire Das Reich panzer battalion was lost, some thirty PzKfw IV and Panthers" the staff man replied. "However, the enemy's advance in the center is slow, and the harassment attacks by Das Reich at Cerignola and by 15. Panzergrenadier Division at Salerno so far have been successful. The Luftwaffe is badly pressed, but is still occassionally flying interdiction and counter-air missions. Further, the execution of Fall Eva has allowed us to take up positions in some depth, with mobile reserves available. There are no immediate indications of a major offensive, and in case, a breakthrough should not be disastrous."
The faint smile returned to Kesselrings face, "Very well, then we wait."
Field Marshal Montgomery and General Clark shook hands. The stagnant front was a concern to London and Washington but Operation Morpheus had been approved. Following some weeks of harrassment attacks on the flanks, including some almost suicidal tactics by the Germans the build up behind the lines was almost ready. the field comsnders would now have to try and break the stubborn German resisitance and the high command hoped that Operation Morpheus would do the trick.
Dicke Bertha
07 Apr 04, 16:00
11. November 1943.
"Leutnant Dicke, radio this message to Herr Hitler." Kesselring handed the communications officer a note.
"Mein Führer, Your orders for 16. and 24. Panzer Divisions to withdraw from the Italian theatre coincide with what appears to be a serious Allied offensive. These two divisions defend the area at Salerno-Neapel, and I cannot hope to hold that open land without the panzers. Therefore, it is my duty to inform you that I have ordered a withdrawal to positions 100 km to the north, along the line Mondragone-Campobasso-Termoli, thus freeing said units for transport to the Reich. The withdrawal is already executed, and has more or less been successful. I am sure You will see the necessity of my actions."
Kesselring turned to leave, "those were good positions we gave up Dicke, I didn't tell the Führer that several battalions have reported difficulties disengaging. Above all the airfields we leave behind for the enemy, that will hurt us most".
14th November 1943, date for the start of Operation Morpheus.
Radio Message sent to 8th Army HQ.
"Sir, they just aren't there. The jerries have pulled out leaving a scattered rearguard. We have pushed foward, especially on the left flank and the Yanks have entered napoli. The use of airfields closer to the front will aid out combat support and interdiction efforts. We have held back the planned bombarment while we move foward though several pockets of resistance will have to be dealt with. Hopefully we can catch the Hun on the hop before he can solidify defences."
Operation Morpheus never went ahead, the Germans having silently retreated before the Allies could lauuch their attacks.
Dicke Bertha
16 Apr 04, 16:01
"...here Panzeraufklärungsabteilung Das Reich, surrounded ... Foggia ... heavy machine gun battalion 2. Para Div. ... we...denying the enemy the roads north, lost con...3. Pz Gren Div Aufkl...2. Para Div Pion Bn ... south, ammunition... casualties heavy ....weak to breakout, enemy closing, long live Germany, Ende."
Kesselring looked sadly at his staff chief: "Well, that makes at least eight battalions lost during the retreat, my poor boys, how I've failed them."
"Sir, we have made better withdrawals before, but the new lines are manned in force and well prepared, our brave boys bought us just the necessary time. The enemy will not break through."
From the Offical History of world War 2 by the War Office
"Allied units sped northwards to the next line of defence the Germans had setup. The port of Naples had been cleared and repaired and thus the flow of supply was ensured. In a war of attrition the resources of the Third Reich could not match the output of the american and british factories. The elan of the german soldier, however, was more than a match for his allied counterpart nad the battles for Italy had only begun. Units for Overlord had already began to be removed from the theatre and the long hard slog had begun."
Dicke Bertha
25 Apr 04, 06:19
The last isolated pockets of German resistance around Foggia had been broken. The Allied troops were reching the new German Hauptkampflinie in strength.
December 12th 1943 – Operation Swingback
Using the early dawn sea mist as cover, the allied launched their second amphibious invasion of the campaign. The British 56th (London) Division along with several engineer and Special Forces units accompanied by the 4th Armoured Brigade and the Guards Motorized Brigade stormed ashore at Gaeta and the vicinity of Terracina. A recon unit of the 65th Infantry Division was surprised and beaten back but a flak unit doggedly held onto the coastal town of Terracina in the first day of the operation. The intention was to unhinge a solid axis defence and land behind the Gothic line, a fortified line that aerial recon had spotted a while back. Once the bridgehead was solidified pressure would be applied in the Volturno area and maybe try and force the axis to shift their forces. On the first day of Operation Swingback diversionary attacks in this area tried to get the enemy to commit his reserves here and divert attention from the landings themselves.
Dicke Bertha
25 Apr 04, 08:52
9. December 1943
”Gentlemen,” Kesselring looked at the visitors from Berlin, who had arrived to inform him that the Führer had ordered 2nd SS Panzer division to regroup to Russia, “the fighting around the landing area is very hard, and the outcome yet uncertain. We are throwing everything we can at the bridgehead, 90. Panzergrenadier Division raced from Rome and assaulted towards Terracina, and actually managed to break through to the Flak battalion defending Terracina, only to be thrown back again as the British reinforced their landings with the 1st British division, previously not known to be in the theatre. Luftwaffe hit the ships and landing troops hard, but it was costly and not successful sorties. 65th ID, with 5th Gebirgs division assaulted and threw back the enemy at Montecassino, and 26. Panzer division managed to cut deep into the landing area. Harassment attacks are being made all along the southern front were enemy troop concentrations are spotted. We are reinforcing the line with 94th infantry division.” Kesselring pointed to the situation map on the wall.
Dicke Bertha
25 Apr 04, 08:53
“Luckily, we have kept some infantry divisions in reserve, 334th Infantry division went directly from the trains to assault the landings, 305th Infantry division joined from the east, and additionally 362nd infantry division has been railed in north of the bridgehead.” A staff officer hung up a new map, and Kesselring continued: “The assaults so far have managed to contain the enemy, and indeed reduced the bridgehead. However, all depends on how much reserves the British can ship in.”
Montgommery looked at the situation map and admitted the situation was not that bad. As Operation Morpheus had not been executed the forces allocated to it were used in Operation Swingback. Though the bridgehead had been contianed by the germans the enemy was suffering substantial casualties. Nevertheless the quality of German troops in the theatre was very good and were proving hard bastards to crack.
Just south of the Terracina bridgehead, near Mondragone the Free French Division along with the 36th US Division had assaulted german positions in the Volturno valley hoping to pave the way for a link up. After a hard days fightiing the polius dropped on the floor exhausted but too fatigued to rest. They were amazed at how the green smocked german troopers literally fell at their guns to a man, indeed only 16 prisoners had been taken and none of a higher rank than sergeant and none had been unwounded. From the bodies of the dead they had noticed that the enemy unit was the 10th Falschirmjaeger Regiment of the 4th FJ Division, The allies could safely say that this unit was now wiped off the emenies OOB but it had been a costly battle and elements of the Hermann Goering Division still clung onto the battered positions. The sacrifices of the Green Devils had allowed the Germans to stay in possession of the field.
Dicke Bertha
03 Jun 04, 16:50
There was an air of deep relief and satisfaction in Kesselring's headquarters. In early December, the enemy had unexpectedly landed with strong forces at Gaeta and Terracino in the back of 10th Army, and in a dash gotten close to taking Montecassino. Immediate counterattacks had pushed the enemy back but failed to throw him into the sea.
Realising that the entire Gustav line could be compromised by the threat in the rear, Kesselring ordered that the beachhead be eliminated at all costs. Four infantry, one mountain, one panzergrenadier and one panzer division, together with several independent Flak units and the Elefants of 653. Jagdpanzer Abteilung had taken turns assaulting the beached relentlessly for a month.
The enemy defended desperately and with great skill in the mountains and on the beaches, and reinforcments were poured in from the sea. However, the German superiority in numbers slowly pushed the defences onto the beaches. The end came when when the Allied artillery beacame exposed to the panzers.
The mountains above Gaeta and Terracino were littered with German dead, and on the beaches lay the British. Few were lucky enough to be evacuated, and few surrendered. The artillery men of the 4th Indian Division in Terracina were the last to fold.
Luckily for the Germans, the main front stayed surprisingly quiet during this month. Only towards the end of the battle at the beachhead was a serious breakthrough achieved on the main front, but the Germans immediately fell back some 40 km to a new solid line.
The general view at the German command was that the Allies had shown too little agressivity on the main front, allowing the Germans to amass a superior force opposing the beachhead. Further, the landings were made too close to the main line, and did not cause a severe splitting up of the German forces.
Dicke Bertha
30 Jun 04, 17:53
Notes from the books of 213. Nachrichtengruppe, Heeresabteilung C.
"Since several weeks, the front is reasonably stable. The British make a few concentrated assaults with corps strength in regimental-divisional areas and push us back 10 km. Losses are not excessive. Reinforcements lately have included several panzerjäger and mechanised units. Our strategy is opportune spoiling attacks on anything ressembling troop concentrations. Our panzergrenadier regiments have been very active in the American-French sector. We currently stand 20-30 km in front of the massive Gustav line. No indications of any major undertaking on our opponent's side. What is he cooking?"
Communique from Allied HQ Italy
A combined attack by Canadian, New Zealand and British troops have broken German lines to the North of Vasto and are now 20km south of Lanciano. Despite the fact that the Germans rushed in the 309th Panzer Grenadier Regiment to reinforce its positions, our troops managed to get armour foward and are holding on. Elsewhere Jerry has made several probing attacks but our superiority in the air and in artillery has caused serious casualties in his ranks. Should be very interesting couple of weeks ahead with the arrival of...
Remainder of message deleted due to security leaks
Dicke Bertha
02 Aug 04, 15:44
Albert Kesselring was a big man, and right now he was an angry big man. It was tellable through the way he took on and off his glasses as he walked around the little villa at the Adriatic coast where the 3. PzGren. Div HQ was located.
"Meine Herren, diese Dummheiten werden uns kosten", he turned to a silly-looking youth wearing headphones, the abruptly turned again, facing the CO of 44. Hu.D.D " I don't care - they don't get further than this- now - is that clear? You will have the heavy Panzerjäger, but if you feel this nice coast has too heavy waves, let me know!"
Although the Allied advance had been modest, it was a bad sign to the German high command since it nullified what was believed to have been several weeks of successful spoiling attacks on what had been identified as enemy artillery concentrations. The cost had been heavy, and still the enemy had been able to rout at least three battle-efficient regiments. With a continuation of such attacks, the prospects of maintaining a secure line seemed questionable.
Dicke Bertha
07 Aug 04, 17:27
The German response to the Allied advance up the Adriatic coast was violent. Regretting his harsh words to the commanding officer of the 44. Hu.D. division, Kesselring sent him the 508. schwere Panzerabteilung. Maybe it was Kesselring's reaction, maybe just pure luck, but as the 103. Pz Abt of 3. Pz Gren Div surprisingly managed to throw the Allied troops out of Vasto, and advanced into the town, significant numbers of Allied armor were suddenly trapped to the north.
The German commander immediately sent all available units to try to widen the gap around Vasto, and ordered several regiments of panzergrenadiers, together with the heavy Tigers and other panzerjäger units to annihilate the trapped enemy. Despite very hard fighting, attempts to widen the hole in the Allied line failed, but enemy losses inside the pocket were heavy, with at least one armoured brigade annihilated.
The situation was difficult to assess for the Germans, would there be sufficient enemy resources to liberate the pocket, and had the Germans perhaps overstretched themselves, perilously weakening their main line to accomplish an insignificant victory?
The stalemate along the Italian Front was to be broken. That was the message from the allied powers that be. Operation Kanga Hammer was initiated and the opening offensives proved successful except for one assualt were the commander of the infantry regiment of the Hermann Goering Division personally inspired his troops by manning front line machinegun positons in a last ditch attempt to hold the postiton, which in fact they did. In other assaults the German line had been pushed back in three different places.
It was all happening on the left flank of the allied attack as American, British, Free French and Commonwealth troops inched fowards. Some elements of the 16 SS Panzergrenadier Reichfuhrer Division, new to the theatre, and flaschirmjaeger veterans of Italy had been blasted of their mounatin positions south of Carigniola
Dicke Bertha
08 Oct 04, 16:28
The mood at the German Italy Command was moody. Since the Allied invasion, first a Salerno, and then in the back of the German HKL, the enemy had suffered terrible losses, but was showing no signs of letting up. In fact, the last weeks had seen a rather determined Allied advance on the Montecassino sector, with the defences slowly falling back towards the heavily fortified line.
Although the belief was that the losses were extremely disproportionate, the enemy kept coming. While army intel spoke of five-fold disproportion in losses to the Germans' favour, the high command simply seemed to have lost heart, and the earlier aggressive and successful counter-attacks were not ordered, nor undertaken at lower level. For lack of offensive orders, divisional commanders had ordered at least one-third of the front units to the rear to construct fall-back defenses, lest morale should be allowed to wither.
From the high command down to the last MG-Schütze, some sort of vitamin injection was needed. Perhaps the Strategic Plans Group, under the command of Rittmeister Dickschwanz, would come up with a magical formula, perhaps...
Dicke Bertha
27 Nov 04, 15:02
Taking advantage of the lull at the front, German intelligence presented Kesselring with the latest update on known enemy dispositions.
Studying the maps, well aware of the fact that the enemy air superiority made an overall intelligence assessment difficult, Kesselring shook his head.
"It seems Cassino is the primary target. Not what I would do. The Shermans will have to climb higher than my Gebirgsjäger, and that will not happen. Keep the panzer reserves ready for counterstrikes, this will be a long and bloody affair!"
Did Jonathan throw in the towel at this point?
Silvanski
28 Jun 07, 03:45
Been studying this one as well Wyatt? ;-)
Been studying this one as well Wyatt? ;-)
Of course.:)
It's a nice AAR. Still waiting for a new italian campaign (2.5 km and battalions), although some of us think (and they're probably right) that the italian campaign can't be modelled well in TOAW.
It's a nice AAR. Still waiting for a new italian campaign (2.5 km and battalions), although some of us think (and they're probably right) that the italian campaign can't be modelled well in TOAW.
Hopefully Ralph and company will change that.
Hopefully Ralph and company will change that.
Don't know how. What should be changed? It would work better at a company/1km scale than on the battalion or regiment scale, which would make the italian campaign some kind of "Fire in the south".
Btw, CA WWII will incooperate a huge Cassino-Anzio scenario at 1km/hex (if the game ever sees the light of the day..).
Don't know how. What should be changed? It would work better at a company/1km scale than on the battalion or regiment scale, which would make the italian campaign some kind of "Fire in the south".
Well, if Ralph and Company can create those 'exclusion zones' with different attributes, then we could see a realyl well done Italian Campaign...
Btw, CA WWII will incooperate a huge Cassino-Anzio scenario at 1km/hex (if the game ever sees the light of the day..).
Eh, I want more. I like the scenarios that cover whole campaigns, rather than just single operations...(Thank goodness the 'Operational' Art of War is so flexible. :laugh:)
Wyatt,
we left this one because of the inaccuracies of the map. We found the map too narrow and there was not enough space to maneouver or try to outflank.
There is another Italian Campagin scenario with a much bigger scale but i think there are issues with that one due to MP issues, infantry had some MP's as armoured units and so on. Im at work at the moment so i haven't got access to the game but im sure it shipped with TOAW III
Jonathan
Silvanski
29 Jun 07, 05:42
That must be Sicily to the Brenner Pass... Wyatt and I have been discussing that as we wanna start an Italian campaign PBEM as soon as he has captured Berlin.
Im up for that game too, the few turns i played with Dickie before we abandoned the game, i had major PC problmes then IRC, i really enjoyed
The problem with S to BP is that it is seriously flawed regarding House Rules, and, basically everything except when units arrive and leave (although even there it appears to be missing the Brazilians and Jews).
S to BP needs a lot of work before it becomes realistic. However, it certainly has the better scale for the campaign, and if someone was willing to put a few hours into improving it, and adding some strategic options, it could really become the premiere Italian Campaing Scenario.
EDIT:
As well, it likely needs playtesting. However, since the original scenario is pretty bare bones the testing will mostly be to make sure that any new options put into the scenario are done correctly.
It might be better to take the map and then start from scratch with the OOB and events. Or take the map and OOb and then start the events from scratch.
Dicke Bertha
29 Jun 07, 14:53
As Polynike and Telumar rightly say, the scale is the major issue with the Italian Campaign scenario. Maybe with an expandend set of options (shocks and supply for offensives etc) it would be more worthwhile. I am not sure what to do about it to make it play better, but I think it is a nicely made scenario.
While Sicily to Brenner has a better scale, when I started to play it with Polynike, we had to abort it because it was so obviously unfinished, in just the issues that Veers just put forward. That said, I think verifying the map and testing the scale would be a good first step regarding the S to Brenner scenario. Maybe 600 + turns is a bit heavy too... Or, it doesn't feel like S to B makes any sense at all really apart from the scale change...:nuts:
That must be Sicily to the Brenner Pass... Wyatt and I have been discussing that as we wanna start an Italian campaign PBEM as soon as he has captured Berlin.
Ah, i forgot this one. Doesn't look too bad though there are some terrain issues, at least around Anzio and down to Terracina (i 'happen' to know the geography there from historical maps due to an own project)
EDIT: Been typing this today morning, but forgot to click the submit buttom.
In any case i would leave Sicily out. Shortens the length and Sicily can be handled as a single campaign. Without Sicily things will become easier for the designer.
As Polynike and Telumar rightly say, the scale is the major issue with the Italian Campaign scenario. Maybe with an expandend set of options (shocks and supply for offensives etc) it would be more worthwhile. I am not sure what to do about it to make it play better, but I think it is a nicely made scenario.
While Sicily to Brenner has a better scale, when I started to play it with Polynike, we had to abort it because it was so obviously unfinished, in just the issues that Veers just put forward. That said, I think verifying the map and testing the scale would be a good first step regarding the S to Brenner scenario. Maybe 600 + turns is a bit heavy too... Or, it doesn't feel like S to B makes any sense at all really apart from the scale change...:nuts:
I would say
A) Cut out Sicily, which is reasonably unrelated from the Italian Campaign. And you have a half-month of waiting between finishing up Sicily and invading Italy (or you risk just putting the Allies into Italy a half-month early). This would cut the length down to just over 600 turns, from 667. The other thing to remember about this scenario is that 600 turns of this is not like 600 turns of FitE or EA. These turns would take a relatively short ammount of time to play.
B) Flesh out the OOB. As far as I remember it is missing units such s the Brazilians and the Jewish Brigade.
Another example: Being Canadian I have read more about them than any other military in WWII. The 5th Armoured Division began as with one inf bgd and one arm bgd. Later in the Campaign a second inf bgd was formed and attached to the division.
This is modeled in the Italian Campaign with the 5th arriving without the 2nd inf bgd; it arrives later. As well, IC has the bulk of the 5th arrive in Feb '43, with the 2nd Inf Bgd arriving in Aug 25th.
StoBP has the whole 5th Armoured arrive in November '43, including the 2nd Inf Bgd.
I can't remember the dates of the 5th's arrival, but I'd be willing to go with the IC dates, because that designer researched enough to know that the 2nd Inf bgd of the 5th Armoured arrived later.
My point being the OOB would have to either be totalyl gone over with a fine toothed comb, directly imported from IC, or done from scratch.
C) BioEd in different infantry squads fro each nation. This would provide a way to have manpower crisis for nationalities such as the Canadians did.
D) Have both sides, but the Allies moreso, effected by variable negative shock during the winter. This would rmake reduce the Allies' ability to attack during the winter, slowing the scenario down as historically the campaign was slowed. The weather, as much as Kesserling's brilliance, and the German soldier's elan, brought about the difficulties in the Allied advance.
E) The terrain would also have to be hardened quite a bit. Using escarpments would be the obvious fix, as the Italian Campaign uses them.
F) The supply situation would have to be very carefully modelled and aligned with the weather conditions in Italy. The weather was the pits. Rain and mud in the hundreds of rivers during spring and autumn. And bad in winter, as well. Chuck's Gothic Line Scenario introduces many good ideas regarding the Appenines (use of badlands terrain, and off-map units to soak up Allied transport equipment during these bad times).
G) The Italians had a significant partisan force that aided the Allies that would have to be carefully modelled.
H) Give some strategic options to the two commanders, with the chance to have a fully historical game, or non-historical game that would come at the penalty of VPs, etc.
I) ETC.
EDIT:
Ah, i forgot this one. Doesn't look too bad though there are some terrain issues, at least around Anzio and down to Terracina (i 'happen' to know the geography there from historical maps due to an own project)
Yeah, I need an Italy expert to make me an Italy map, as I'm sure these are not the only terrain issues...As well, the map would have to have plenty of 'special features' (escarpments, marshes) to make it play properly.
How is Anzio going, anyways?
In any case i would leave Sicily out. Shortens the length and Sicily can be handled as a single campaign. Without Sicily things will become easier for the designer.
Agreed, as I pointed out above, but didn't get posted before you posted this.
There is also the quesiton of time-frame. In StoBP, at one-day turns, the Allied Infantry units have 15-18 MPs. At half-week turns the Allied inf units have 36-43 MPs.
This has two facets.
At one day turns, the Allies have (10 Combat Rounds/day=70 Combat Rounds per week), whereas at half-week turns the Allies have (10 Combat Rounds/half-week=20 Combat Rounds per turn). This means that a player playing with half-week turns has to do about 3 times as much damage per turn to equal what he could do with one-day turns. Therefore the advantage would go to the Allied player at one-day turns, rather than half-week turns. Therefore, it would seem that to slow down the Campaign it would be best to set the turns to half-week.
The problem would be the massive ammount of MPs the Allies would have to work with per turn (if turns are half-week). This would better enable surrounds in a turn, which was largely unrealistic as the Germans were very good at withdrawing and not being surrounded.
EDIT: This could be moddified by adjusting the Movement bias, as well, to slow down the overall campaign speed. It would be advantageous to have this able to modified by events (to coincide with spring, autumn, and winter), but I don't think Ralph and company have gotten to this, yet, eh?
A major descision would seem necessary on this front. Does anyone have any experience comments on this?
I would say
D) Have both sides, but the Allies moreso, effected by variable negative shock during the winter. This would rmake reduce the Allies' ability to attack during the winter, slowing the scenario down as historically the campaign was slowed. The weather, as much as Kesserling's brilliance, and the German soldier's elan, brought about the difficulties in the Allied advance.
One thing i like about the italian campaign is the relatively independance that Kesselring had compared to his colleagues in the east (probably due to being a Luftwaffe officer and thus primarily under Göring's command).
Yeah, I need an Italy expert to make me an Italy map, as I'm sure these are not the only terrain issues...As well, the map would have to have plenty of 'special features' (escarpments, marshes) to make it play properly.
I'm no italy expert, have been there five times, but only in the italian alpes and in tuscany...:cheeky:
But i agree on all the terrain things..marshes, escarpments, rocky terrain etc. One would need a real good topographical map.
I'm not going to start any new toaw projects before i have finished my current one, wouldn't have the time anyway.
How is Anzio going, anyways?
Currently i am still working on completing the two forces in the editor (80% done) and struggling with the TOE. Thinking about expanding the map to the north to include Rome itself (i think i can come up with a reasonable authentical garrison). Are you still up for a playtest once it's gotten so far (although you prefer entire campaigns over single operations and it's not 'your' scale)?
There is also the quesiton of time-frame. In StoBP, at one-day turns, the Allied Infantry units have 15-18 MPs. At half-week turns the Allied inf units have 36-43 MPs.
This has two facets.
At one day turns, the Allies have (10 Combat Rounds/day=70 Combat Rounds per week), whereas at half-week turns the Allies have (10 Combat Rounds/half-week=20 Combat Rounds per turn). This means that a player playing with half-week turns has to do about 3 times as much damage per turn to equal what he could do with one-day turns. Therefore the advantage would go to the Allied player at one-day turns, rather than half-week turns. Therefore, it would seem that to slow down the Campaign it would be best to set the turns to half-week.
You can play with the attrition divider setting, and/or set a lower MRPB for the 20 combat rounds/week version than you would do for the 70 combat rounds/week. Only testing can reveal, it could well be that you already get reasonable results with the standard setting of 10 for the attrition divider.
The problem would be the massive amount of MPs the Allies would have to work with per turn (if turns are half-week). This would better enable surrounds in a turn, which was largely unrealistic as the Germans were very good at withdrawing and not being surrounded.
The classic problem of IGOYGO.
In this one it really depends a lot on terrain, which allowed the germans to do what they did: Withdraw and not getting surrounded.
EDIT: This could be moddified by adjusting the Movement bias, as well, to slow down the overall campaign speed. It would be advantageous to have this able to modified by events (to coincide with spring, autumn, and winter), but I don't think Ralph and company have gotten to this, yet, eh?
One day...
I never understood why this hasn't been incooperated with the first appeareance of the Movement bias (was it in COW vanilla or in a later patch?)
I'm no italy expert, have been there five times, but only in the italian alpes and in tuscany...:cheeky:
But i agree on all the terrain things..marshes, escarpments, rocky terrain etc. One would need a real good topographical map.
Or a real Italian. :laugh:
Currently i am still working on completing the two forces in the editor (80% done) and struggling with the TOE. Thinking about expanding the map to the north to include Rome itself (i think i can come up with a reasonable authentical garrison). Are you still up for a playtest once it's gotten so far (although you prefer entire campaigns over single operations and it's not 'your' scale)?
Absolutely. Anything for a friend.
You can play with the attrition divider setting, and/or set a lower MRPB for the 20 combat rounds/week version than you would do for the 70 combat rounds/week. Only testing can reveal, it could well be that you already get reasonable results with the standard setting of 10 for the attrition divider.
Yeah, as you say, only testing would tell.
The classic problem of IGOYGO.
In this one it really depends a lot on terrain, which allowed the germans to do what they did: Withdraw and not getting surrounded.
True, but with a million MPs per turn, I could do a lot of things. Although, a thought comes to mind...Is moving through enemy terrain (or enemy ZOCs) based on a percentage of the MPs?
One day...
I never understood why this hasn't been incooperated with the first appeareance of the Movement bias (was it in COW vanilla or in a later patch?)
Dunno...Hopefully Ralph and company will make it so sooner than later.
Absolutely. Anything for a friend.
Jupie..:)
True, but with a million MPs per turn, I could do a lot of things.
Not if you move against Brandenburgers and 'Hermann Göring' Aufklärung in the Liri valley..
Although, a thought comes to mind...Is moving through enemy terrain (or enemy ZOCs) based on a percentage of the MPs?
It is somehow based on it i would say (emphasis by me):
Enemy Adjacent: 12.5% to 25% of the original Movement Allowance.
This depends on the unit’s Reconnaissance Capability.
This penalty is doubled if the unit is moving from one such location
to another. The cost is assessed upon leaving a hex adjacent
to the enemy, not upon entering it.
Enemy-Controlled Terrain: Up to 10% of original Movement Allowance.
This depends on the unit’s Reconnaissance Capability.
This cost also applies throughout the entire Turn in which a location
first becomes friendly-controlled.
Not if you move against Brandenburgers and 'Hermann Göring' Aufklärung in the Liri valley..
Good point. You could easily run out of troops and materiel before budging those troops.
It is somehow based on it i would say (emphasis by me):
Enemy Adjacent: 12.5% to 25% of the original Movement Allowance.
This depends on the unit’s Reconnaissance Capability.
This penalty is doubled if the unit is moving from one such location
to another. The cost is assessed upon leaving a hex adjacent
to the enemy, not upon entering it.
Enemy-Controlled Terrain: Up to 10% of original Movement Allowance.
This depends on the unit’s Reconnaissance Capability.
This cost also applies throughout the entire Turn in which a location
first becomes friendly-controlled.
Excellent. Then on half-week turns you would slow down the campaign, without having to worry too much about unrealistic encirclements. Of course only testing will tell, but I think this could be a good way to help model the Italian Campaign.
Silvanski
30 Jun 07, 15:15
:eek: that's a huge sandwich you put your teeth in Wyatt.
Oh BTW the Brazilians are there, to appear on turn 361.
You're looking more or less at a scaled up version of Italian Campaign?
Maybe you know this site, it has various maps of Italy.
http://custermen.com/Maps/MapMenu.htm
Dicke Bertha
30 Jun 07, 16:26
Maybe the first question to ask is: just how realistic is any outcome other than the historical; in losses, ground gained etc. Anything not historical must be compensated with extra reinforcements anf VP amendments.
Maybe the Allies were simply not capable of quicker advances or major victories at this point, or if they would have been in the making, the Germans would have reinforced quickly - at the expense of the Russian front (one could even speculate such events might have mitigated later disaster in Russia by sobering up German High Command; in this respect a slow advance in Italy might have been a very clever Allied approach although I doubt it was intentional).
With other overall commanders or single events - replace Kesselring with Himmler, replace the unimaginative US corps commander at outbreak allowing one German army (10 or 14th?) to escape encirclement, etc, maybe little would have changed on the overall scale in Italy seen throughout the Campaign.
A fantastic project would be to tie the Italian campaign, the West Front and the Eastern Front together in a triple scenario pack, to be played simulataneously but separately - with TO's corresponding to developments in either scenario - there's a Factor Experiment Set Up I'd never be able to define - and playable as teams, Germans vs Allied. The time frame and the scale could maybe differ on one order of magnitude betwen the scenarios. We've got Mc Bride's GiO, Mensch's Western Front, and with Custer's Italian Campaign on parred scale (half?) we'd have a nice set. :paperbag:
Silvanski
30 Jun 07, 16:48
A fantastic project would be to tie the Italian campaign, the West Front and the Eastern Front together in a triple scenario pack, to be played simulataneously but separately - with TO's corresponding to developments in either scenario - there's a Factor Experiment Set Up I'd never be able to define - and playable as teams, Germans vs Allied. The time frame and the scale could maybe differ on one order of magnitude betwen the scenarios. We've got Mc Bride's GiO, Mensch's Western Front, and with Custer's Italian Campaign on parred scale (half?) we'd have a nice set. :paperbag:
I assume you know Gotterdammerung
http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/display_scenario.php?Id=53
It covers all European theaters from Dec 1944 till the end of the Reich on a 10KM/hex map... I've been tweaking/modding it for private consumption.
Dicke Bertha
30 Jun 07, 16:59
I assume you know Gotterdammerung
http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/display_scenario.php?Id=53
It covers all European theaters from Dec 1944 till the end of the Reich on a 10KM/hex map... I've been tweaking/modding it for private consumption.
Tweak it like you've done Trotsky's war - awesome work, I am playing it now solitaire and it is just great! Many thanks.
That Götterdämmerung I always found very poor, so I am very much looking forward to what you will do with it.
I personally think any scenario that tries to contain west, south and east will be too superficial and not really allow the various theaters to develop within their own logic. I hope I am wrong though, and wish you all luck. :)
Silvanski
30 Jun 07, 19:04
Thanks for the heads up on Trotsky. I received positive feedback from several people now, which is very rewarding :-)
Gotterdammerung plays quite OK as it is but needs tweaking... indeed a tough one. Timing of offensives etc.
For the German PO I might try multiple objective tracks, coupled to a 50/50 chance event so that they will retreat towards a national "festung" in Bavaria and the Alps , something the Allies first feared would happen, but didn't materialize.
The sister scenario "House Of Cards" which only covers the Eastern front during the last months of the war is much easier. It had PO implemented which needed some tweaking...The Soviet PO mod seems to work fine and I'm working to improve the German one.
If only I could contact the designer Tomas Kolley for some questions and permission to release the mod... all email addies found failed...
he ran this site http://members.fortunecity.de/mcsnipe/news.htm
:eek: that's a huge sandwich you put your teeth in Wyatt.
Aye. This isn't the first time I've bit into this sandwich. And I'm sure it won't be the last time I bite into it before I eat the whole thing.
Oh BTW the Brazilians are there, to appear on turn 361.
Right'o. Didn't look hard enough to see that.
You're looking more or less at a scaled up version of Italian Campaign?
More or less.
Maybe you know this site, it has various maps of Italy.
http://custermen.com/Maps/MapMenu.htm
I didn't know of this site. Danke. You're turn is coming, by the way. I've been busy, other players have started returing turns to me, and I'm planning the next stage of the war, as well.
Silvanski
01 Jul 07, 00:05
OK, I understand you're looking into the Italian job right now ;-)
Maybe the first question to ask is: just how realistic is any outcome other than the historical; in losses, ground gained etc. Anything not historical must be compensated with extra reinforcements anf VP amendments.
Maybe the Allies were simply not capable of quicker advances or major victories at this point, or if they would have been in the making, the Germans would have reinforced quickly - at the expense of the Russian front (one could even speculate such events might have mitigated later disaster in Russia by sobering up German High Command; in this respect a slow advance in Italy might have been a very clever Allied approach although I doubt it was intentional).
With other overall commanders or single events - replace Kesselring with Himmler, replace the unimaginative US corps commander at outbreak allowing one German army (10 or 14th?) to escape encirclement, etc, maybe little would have changed on the overall scale in Italy seen throughout the Campaign.
Personally, I think in any Italian balanced Italian scenario between balanced opponents the Allies would be able to do better than historically due to one fact:
Kesserling was brilliant. More brilliant than the Allied commanders facing him. This means that a properly put together Italy scenario with two equal opponents would see the Allies do better.
The answer to get a historical result with two equal opponents may involve
a) Adding in a 'shock' bonus for the Germans, making their troops fight better (though this increased combat efficientcy hardly compensates for the operational brilliance of Kesserling), or
b) including more than historical numbers of HQs, allowing the Germans to more easily withdraw from the Allies, as they did so well in history and is so much more difficult to do in TOAW.
A fantastic project would be to tie the Italian campaign, the West Front and the Eastern Front together in a triple scenario pack, to be played simulataneously but separately - with TO's corresponding to developments in either scenario - there's a Factor Experiment Set Up I'd never be able to define - and playable as teams, Germans vs Allied. The time frame and the scale could maybe differ on one order of magnitude betwen the scenarios. We've got Mc Bride's GiO, Mensch's Western Front, and with Custer's Italian Campaign on parred scale (half?) we'd have a nice set. :paperbag:
Ahhh. I get ya. That would be difficult. Another thing would be a TOAW IV where all effects can be set to only affect a certain area of the map, and have it all in one scenario that could be played at the same time by different players. Would be cool.
Until then we'll have to wait for masterful just Western Front and just Italian Campaign scenarios to be built (on the right scale), to compliment DnO and FitE.
Well, with luck in 50 years I'll have that just Italian Campaign scenario built and working properly. :laugh: :clown:
EDIT: Europe 44 also attempts to simulate the entire war form June 22nd, 1944 onward. I have yet to play it to see how it plays. It is very large scale (same as EA), so it does not cover the whole war in as much detail as either WF 44-45, Italian Campaign 43-45, or DnO or FitE.
Wyatt, what do you think works better: 5 km/hex or 2.5 km/hex for a new italian campaign?
Wyatt, what do you think works better: 5 km/hex or 2.5 km/hex for a new italian campaign?
Good question.
2.5km/hex would make it a damned big map (which may or may not be a strike against it [personally I like my maps slightly more manageable).
I wonder if you would have to break the units down to Battalion, as well.
Further, even on one day turns, the MPs for each unit would be tremendous.
Of course, the more detailed any scenario is the better it will sim. The problem is to balance detail with playability.
Menschenfresser
01 Jul 07, 22:37
Personally, I think in any Italian balanced Italian scenario between balanced opponents the Allies would be able to do better than historically due to one fact:
Kesserling was brilliant. More brilliant than the Allied commanders facing him. This means that a properly put together Italy scenario with two equal opponents would see the Allies do better.
The answer to get a historical result with two equal opponents may involve
a) Adding in a 'shock' bonus for the Germans, making their troops fight better (though this increased combat efficientcy hardly compensates for the operational brilliance of Kesserling), or
b) including more than historical numbers of HQs, allowing the Germans to more easily withdraw from the Allies, as they did so well in history and is so much more difficult to do in TOAW.
Dunno, I'm having a helluva time getting the Allies to move at all in Italy in West Front 44. But then again, 1944 already half way-ish through the campaign.
Dunno, I'm having a helluva time getting the Allies to move at all in Italy in West Front 44. But then again, 1944 already half way-ish through the campaign.
That was somewhat what I was talking about earlier in the development of WF 44-45. That without a commander on the German side that is better than the Allied commander, the Allies should do better than historically.
But, hey, I don't know. I can say that I've never designed a scenario, and I haven't been playing for half as long as most of the people here. I coudl be very very far off.
So guys, is anyone taking on the task of modding S t BP, ill volunteer to playtest it
So guys, is anyone taking on the task of modding S t BP, ill volunteer to playtest it
As Silvain said (to me in an email), maybe when I am retired I will. :D
Or maybe I'll convince Silvain to partner with me for it. Who knows. Unless you want to help, as well. :D
I don't know where to start but ill help
I don't know where to start but ill help
One of the first things we'll have to do is build the basics: Which units were there, what did they look like, and when did they leave?
Sicily to Brenner Pass looks like it failed here.
Italian Campaign did a much better job, by the looks of it, so it may be a good starting resources, as well, of course, as Feldgrau and AxisHistory Factbook. Where would we look for the Ameri and Commonwealth units?
Another thing we'll have to do is improve the StoBP map, or draw a new one entirely. For that, we'll need to recruit a map genious, as I'm not it. Unless you or Silvain are great with maps...
After we have all that set up we can start to look at events, House Rules (mostly regarding further invasions), and what constitutes victory.
Having worked all that out, we can start playtesting.
Dicke Bertha
09 Jul 07, 16:43
Like Jonathan I'll want to help out, but must limit efforts to playtesting. For what it is worth I strongly would urge any one taking on a revamping of StB to look really close at Custer's nice work and transpose the scale and some other by comparison lesser points, and less look at StB as such.
Like Jonathan I'll want to help out, but must limit efforts to playtesting. For what it is worth I strongly would urge any one taking on a revamping of StB to look really close at Custer's nice work and transpose the scale and some other by comparison lesser points, and less look at StB as such.
I agree. As I mentioned in my post above, Marc Custer's Italian Campaign will be a good startign resource.
One of the first things we'll have to do is build the basics: Which units were there, what did they look like, and when did they leave?
Sicily to Brenner Pass looks like it failed here.
Italian Campaign did a much better job, by the looks of it, so it may be a good starting resources, as well, of course, as Feldgrau and AxisHistory Factbook. Where would we look for the Ameri and Commonwealth units?
Another thing we'll have to do is improve the StoBP map, or draw a new one entirely. For that, we'll need to recruit a map genious, as I'm not it. Unless you or Silvain are great with maps...
After we have all that set up we can start to look at events, House Rules (mostly regarding further invasions), and what constitutes victory.
I could offer some help with all the stuff i collected and that i have read for my Anzio project.
I also just went through the german OOB/TOE of Custer's scenario and found some issues.
Where would we look for the Ameri and Commonwealth units?
Custer's OOB seems to be okay, otherwise this could help you, though it gives no detail about the units' equipment except very detailed tables for the allied airforces:
"C.J.C.Morony, History of the second world war - The mediterranean and Middle East."
Volume V just right beside me, the rest at the university's bibliotheque. :smoke:
Silvanski
10 Jul 07, 00:59
I can look into map modding. I wouldn't start a new map altogether as the proportions of the S to BP map are good.
As somewhat of an German History buff i can help out to sort the German OOB, but my main help would be the playtesting
so wyatt are we going to get this beast of the ground then?
As somewhat of an German History buff i can help out to sort the German OOB, but my main help would be the playtesting
so wyatt are we going to get this beast of the ground then?
Might as well give it a shot.
Anyone have contact details for Mr. Quisling. I didn't find any in the briefing and we'll have to get his permission to use the map (as that'll pretty well be the only thing of his scenario that we use).
I can look into map modding. I wouldn't start a new map altogether as the proportions of the S to BP map are good.
Ok, if we can get permission to use the map then you can start going over it with a fine toothed comb to see how it fares. As far as I can tell it could use a little spicing up. We'll certainly need to make use of escarpment hexes to toughen up the Italian terrain.
Custer's OOB seems to be okay, otherwise this could help you, though it gives no detail about the units' equipment except very detailed tables for the allied airforces:
"C.J.C.Morony, History of the second world war - The mediterranean and Middle East."
Volume V just right beside me, the rest at the university's bibliotheque. :smoke:
I wonder if my own library has that source.
Hmmm...wonder what Custer used for his scenario...
EDIT: I've also sent an email to Marc asking his permission to use his scenario as a major reference.
I wonder if my own library has that source.
Hmmm...wonder what Custer used for his scenario...
EDIT: I've also sent an email to Marc asking his permission to use his scenario as a major reference.
If your own library hasn't it try it with inter-library loan. That's how i got some books for Anzio from libraries in Munich and Saarbrücken.
We have the permission and blessings of Marc Custer to "...pick up the torch and carry it."
All we need now is to contact Quisling about his map.
We have the permission and blessings of Marc Custer to "...pick up the torch and carry it."
All we need now is to contact Quisling about his map.
Yipiee..and an attached gift from the "Deutsches Historisches Institut Rom". Should be all german units that fought in Italy. :)
Yipiee..and an attached gift from the "Deutsches Historisches Institut Rom". Should be all german units that fought in Italy. :)
Looks detailed. :D
Couldn't get a hold of Quisling99 at cheathm (at) ipa (dot)net.
Anyone know a way to get in contact with him?
Silvanski
10 Jul 07, 23:59
Ok, if we can get permission to use the map then you can start going over it with a fine toothed comb to see how it fares. As far as I can tell it could use a little spicing up. We'll certainly need to make use of escarpment hexes to toughen up the Italian terrain.
Roger that ol' boy :salute: :D
Silvanski
11 Jul 07, 00:02
Yipiee..and an attached gift from the "Deutsches Historisches Institut Rom". Should be all german units that fought in Italy. :)
Woohoo, that's awesome
Tel, where did you get that wonderful source?
Looks detailed. :D
hehe..yes :laugh:
Tel, where did you get that wonderful source?
It's from the website of Deutsches Historisches Institut in Rom (http://www.dhi-roma.it/home.html?&L=). There is also some kind of unit search engine, here: http://194.242.233.149/ortdb/ortdb.html
where you can find out which unit, regardless of size, was where and when. Try it, just do copy and paste with a unit from the .pdf file, i.e. Grenadier-Regiment 1047 and see what happens. Awesome. :)
hehe..yes :laugh:
It's from the website of Deutsches Historisches Institut in Rom (http://www.dhi-roma.it/home.html?&L=). There is also some kind of unit search engine, here: http://194.242.233.149/ortdb/ortdb.html
where you can find out which unit, regardless of size, was where and when. Try it, just do copy and paste with a unit from the .pdf file, i.e. Grenadier-Regiment 1047 and see what happens. Awesome. :)
Ah, not unlike: http://www.ordersofbattle.com/
Unfortunately this resource is not complete.
Silvanski
11 Jul 07, 23:48
Gentlemen, may I propose continuing this thread over at the Scenario Design section.
I have been checking some portions of the StBP map using GoogleEarth, already saw some details which can be improved.
so gentlemen...........how is the project going????
i just read the AAR and all your plans! :laugh:
so gentlemen...........how is the project going????
i just read the AAR and all your plans! :laugh:
We should keep the chatter in the http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68456development thread. :D
It's going slowly. I'm lazy, and when I'm not being lazy, I'm at work...being lazy...:laugh:
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