Yes But...??

[Old&Slow]

I`ve been a long time HPS fan and supporter, and like many old timers who started with TOP have been awaiting POA2 for about 10 years now :rolleyes:
so it`s more then a bit sad to see both the issues with the Game and it`s current limitations.

My interest in the Game was always to see recreated, in a modern context, what TOP/PITs was, a small to large scale ( Brigade size ) tactical simulator that could allow the Gamer to fight NATO VS Warsaw Pact battles, incorporating supply, air support, and Arty over a large Map. In fact a more detailed version of DA( an excellent Game I supported with 3 linked large scale scenarios.)

It seems that in it`s current state POA2 shipped scenarios does none of those things, and due to design limitations and hardware requirements, is most unlikley to do any of those things at that scale. I realize the re-ordering of the world and the demise of the warsaw pact is a factor but still...

I, as I suspect many other older Gamers, are _completely un-interested_ in Desert Storm "what if " battles in small scale, or a Tank Platoon VS some terrorists on a 50 meter Map.

Since I voted with my $$ and didn`t buy the Game on what I`ve seen so far, I`m interested in knowing what POA2 does, if anything that DA, Tac Ops, and ATF does not already do ? The lack of a campaign games( an issue with those games as well IMO ) is really unbelieveable FWIW..

Also, and more important, is the thing fun and / or interesting at any level ?

[Don Maddox]

I don't believe POA2 is ever going to be suitable for recreating large scale battles of any type. You would need a main frame to run it! By large battles I mean much larger than a brigade vs. a brigade. Battles of that size are simply beyond the scale of what POA2 is attempting to do IMHO.

What does POA2 do? It covers small to medium sized conflicts. Most US and Soviet hardware from the last 20 years or so is already in the database, but not all. The database is gowing, however, because I have a pre-release version of build 5 and it has some very significant improvements that I think will make many of you happy. The game already sports more weapons systems than most other wargames on the market and it is growing fast.

Is the system stable? No, it wasn't at first. There were some pretty serious bugs that really marred the release. On the other hand, the vast majority of these have been fixed with the build 5 patch and the game is now much more stable. There are some additional issues that need to be enhanced/modified and Scott is working on that as we speak. Some of these things are complicated and making significant changes to the engine takes hard work. I've seen some of things Scott has changed, but I don't know what he is currently working on. It must be something reasonably significant for him to delay the release of the patch.

On the issue of the editor. My own take on this is a little different than some other peoples' view. Almost everything in the game is editable; nations, national characteristics, OOBs, maps, weather, etc. The only thing that users can't do is add new weapons systems to the database or modify the stats for the existing ones. I'm a little bewildered by why this seems to be such a sticking point with some gamers. There have only been a handful of wargamers ever released that allowed users to actually add new weapons to the system. You can't do it with TOAW, TacOps, East front, West Front, Combat Mission, Uncommon Valor, or Close Combat. There was some confusion at first over whether users would be permitted to do this, and I guess that has left a few people upset about it. But in reality, it would be very cumbersome if HPS allowed it. For one thing, everyone would be using a different database so how would PBEM even be possible? Next, there is no telling what outrageous results users might get if they messed up the data entries (of which there are over 100 per weapon). This is really a moot point in my view because HPS is making good on their promise to release additions to the database.

Those folks who are concerned about how much the first patch is going to fix may wish to wait for a few weeks prior to making a decision to buy or not.

[HercMighty]

I don't believe POA2 is ever going to be suitable for recreating large scale battles of any type. You would need a main frame to run it! By large battles I mean much larger than a brigade vs. a brigade. Battles of that size are simply beyond the scale of what POA2 is attempting to do IMHO.

My take on this from reading the forums is that if the campaign mode could be implemented correctly it would solve some of this. From my understanding there is mechanisms in place for resupply, and leaders gaining experience, and probably others I have not even heard of. With this I think you could then give the feel of a larger battle and would improve the experience.

This is just my opinion and would be curious as to what others think.

[Don Maddox]

My take on this from reading the forums is that if the campaign mode could be implemented correctly it would solve some of this. From my understanding there is mechanisms in place for resupply, and leaders gaining experience, and probably others I have not even heard of. With this I think you could then give the feel of a larger battle and would improve the experience.

This is just my opinion and would be curious as to what others think.
Agreed. This is a feature that HPS needs to implement at some point, but it isn't on my top 5 "wish list." I believe much of the work is already done, but that doesn't mean there isn't a lot more to do prior to implementing it. Remember how buggy the campaign modes were in the original East Front and West Front? It took years to get that mess straightened out and get the campaign mode stable. I would rather see HPS wait and release the campaign mode when it is tested and bug free.

[Ivan Rapkinov]

less campaign mode - more weapons/countries first :)

[HercMighty]

I agree with both of you. I would be happy with the "current game" fixed. Some additions to enhance that game (interface additions, weapons, etc...) and then look to the "campaign mode". I just made the comment because I keep seeing people complain about the size of the battles when once some higher priority issues are resolved there is a plan (I hope) that will I feel deal with this issue quite nicely.

[Old&Slow]

Don

Thanks for the response.

My understanding from the Unoffical HPS Forums is that the Cold War ( 1947-1980`s ), which most people consider ended in the late 1980`s US-British-West German NATO - Warsaw Pact equipment is not now in the data base.

The issue with the editor ( which is related to the DB issue ) is that again, the understanding is that the player cannot create "new" scenarios, with "New" maps from scratch.

The inabilty to fight a campaign Game on any level, is a Huge issue for me, and the lack of a "surrender" feature is just hard to understand.

I consider a Brigade with supporting arms battle just fine, but I`m not about to buy a new 6 Gz computer to play that.

[Don Maddox]

Don

Thanks for the response.It's my pleasure.

My understanding from the Unoffical HPS Forums is that the Cold War ( 1947-1980`s ), which most people consider ended in the late 1980`s US-British-West German NATO - Warsaw Pact equipment is not now in the data base.
You can find the official list of equipment from the original release here: http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/POA2/Wpn%20Sys%20Name%20List.TXT. I don't believe that list shows any of the equipment that has been added with the latest beta patch. The POA2 team have been busy adding new things, so there may be even more new equipment in the database than there is in beta build 5.

As you can see from the list, there is a fair amount of older equipment modeled. More can always be added as the need arises. If you have specific requents for additional equipment, I suggest you send them to the POA2 team - support@hpssims.com.

The issue with the editor ( which is related to the DB issue ) is that again, the understanding is that the player cannot create "new" scenarios, with "New" maps from scratch.
This is not correct. New scenarios can be created from scratch because I've done it! The game does not ship with a map editor on the CD, but additional maps can be created with Aid De Camp 2 and I have been working on my own maps during the last two days. I don't fully understand the process yet (it's somewhat more complicated than other map editors), but it seems to work correctly. As soon as I get the map editor completely figured out I'll be posting some scenarios of my own in the Warfare HQ scenario archive.


The inabilty to fight a campaign Game on any level, is a Huge issue for me, and the lack of a "surrender" feature is just hard to understand.

Scott did say he is planning to activate the campaign mode at some point, but I imagine it isn't on the top of his list just yet. Stamping out the bugs will probably take priority over everything else. He is also working on adding new weapons systems to the game (the POA2 team is working on this now). After that, I imagine he intends to start on some of the interface tweaks and "wish list" items. This is me talking not HPS, but that's what I imagine will happen.

Not sure what you mean about a surrender feature. Are you referring to the ability of one player to surrender to an opponent during a multiplayer game, or that units don't surrender during battle?

I consider a Brigade with supporting arms battle just fine, but I`m not about to buy a new 6 Gz computer to play that.I'm playing on a 3Ghz PC, and the larger POA2 battles run fine. I have not tried it yet, but I'm sure I could play significantly larger battles if there were a need. It probably would take a while for the combat pulses to finish, but it certainly wouldn't be any worse than a normal turn of Panzer Campaigns.

There is a trade off between having all that extra detail and the amount of time and computing power it takes to run it. POA2 err's on the side of extreme detail and that may not be to everyone's tastes.

Good post.

[tws71669]

It's my pleasure.

You can find the official list of equipment from the original release here: http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/POA2/Wpn%20Sys%20Name%20List.TXT. I don't believe that list shows any of the equipment that has been added with the latest beta patch. The POA2 team have been busy adding new things, so there may be even more new equipment in the database than there is in beta build 5.

I'm playing on a 3Ghz PC, and the larger POA2 battles run fine. I have not tried it yet, but I'm sure I could play significantly larger battles if there were a need. It probably would take a while for the combat pulses to finish, but it certainly wouldn't be any worse than a normal turn of Panzer Campaigns.

There is a trade off between having all that extra detail and the amount of time and computing power it takes to run it. POA2 err's on the side of extreme detail and that may not be to everyone's tastes.

Good post.
One question, one observation...
Don, can you or are you allowed to tell us what new equipment might be added in the patch release? wet our appetites, pleez!

On my spare computer, a measly 500mhz 256ram I am able to run all the scenarios but the last 3. It takes about 20-25 minutes for a full turn to complete but I can watch events unfold, reports come in... so it's not as painstaking as some might think. Hope this gives a few perspective buyers with slightly better machines a reason to give POA2 a try. Yes the later scenarios are monsters but the game is still playable.
-Tiberius

[Ivan Rapkinov]

One question, one observation...
Don, can you or are you allowed to tell us what new equipment might be added in the patch release? whet our appetites, pleez!

On my spare computer, a measly 500mhz 256ram I am able to run all the scenarios but the last 3. It takes about 20-25 minutes for a full turn to complete but I can watch events unfold, reports come in... so it's not as painstaking as some might think. Hope this gives a few perspective buyers with slightly better machines a reason to give POA2 a try. Yes the later scenarios are monsters but the game is still playable.
-

I've got the last three scns to run on my 800MHz 256 Ram - means I can eat lunch without stopping the game :D

btw - I don't really like the larger scns, but I never do in any game - give me company vs company in a complex environ and I'm set :)

[Don Maddox]

One question, one observation...
Don, can you or are you allowed to tell us what new equipment might be added in the patch release? wet our appetites, pleez!

-TiberiusI don't know. I just shot off an email to Scott about it. As soon as I hear back from him I will let you know one way or the other.