making maps for POA2 - ADC2 questions and answers

[Don Maddox]

Those of you that have tried your hand at creating maps for Point of Attack 2 using Aid de Camp 2 have probably discovered that it isn't exactly an intuitive process. Information on the subject is scarce to say the least as POA2 contains no tutorial on the subject. It doesn't appear that HPS is going to provide us with a map making tutorial in the near future, so I have started this thread in an attempt to pool our collective knowledge (what little there is) so we can get some projects started. If we don't have a reliable process for creating maps that is reasonably accessible for players, then that does not bode well at all for the future of the system.

At this point I'm not sure whether may lack of knowledge on how ADC2 operates is the problem, or if the process really is this painful. I'm having to learn most of this stuff by trial and error since there are no step-by-step tutorials. Part of the problem is this: ADC2 is a generic wargame utility that is mainly used by boardgamers to create maps for playing boardgames "live" on the internet. It's similar to VASSAL in concept. For whatever reason, HPS opted to use ADC2 as the method for creating maps for POA2. Was this a sound design decision? Perhaps not, but that's the situation we're in.

Because ADC2 is meant to be used for all types of different games, the system is capable of a very wide variety of map types. It's a very powerful system for creating a map, but it doesn't lend itself well to the whole idea of making maps quickly. The map editors included with TOAW, West Front, and Combat Mission are a joy to use in comparrison. On the plus side, scenario and map authors will have a lot of control over exactly how maps look and play in POA2. Authors could even change the unit graphics and the whole terrain set if they were inclined to do so.

I suspect most players will want to stick with the system that has already been established for POA2, which is using topographic maps to represent the zoomx2 and zoomx3 views and the default terrain set for the zoomx1 view. This system works wel, but it isn't exactly easy to set up. I have figured out part of it by trial and error, but some of it still eludes me. I will start this thread by posing a series of questions, then posting the answers when I can find them. If you have additional information, feel free to chime in and share the wealth.

[Ivan Rapkinov]

Those of you that have tried your hand at creating maps for Point of Attack 2 using Aid de Camp 2 have probably discovered that it isn't exactly an intuitive process. Information on the subject is scarce to say the least as POA2 contains no tutorial on the subject. It doesn't appear that HPS is going to provide us with a map making tutorial in the near future, so I have started this thread in an attempt to pool our collective knowledge (what little there is) so we can get some projects started. If we don't have a reliable process for creating maps that is reasonably accessible for players, then that does not bode well at all for the future of the system.

At this point I'm not sure whether may lack of knowledge on how ADC2 operates is the problem, or if the process really is this painful. I'm having to learn most of this stuff by trial and error since there are no step-by-step tutorials. Part of the problem is this: ADC2 is a generic wargame utility that is mainly used by boardgamers to create maps for playing boardgames "live" on the internet. It's similar to VASSAL in concept. For whatever reason, HPS opted to use ADC2 as the method for creating maps for POA2. Was this a sound design decision? Perhaps not, but that's the situation we're in.

Because ADC2 is meant to be used for all types of different games, the system is capable of a very wide variety of map types. It's a very powerful system for creating a map, but it doesn't lend itself well to the whole idea of making maps quickly. The map editors included with TOAW, West Front, and Combat Mission are a joy to use in comparrison. On the plus side, scenario and map authors will have a lot of control over exactly how maps look and play in POA2. Authors could even change the unit graphics and the whole terrain set if they were inclined to do so.

I suspect most players will want to stick with the system that has already been established for POA2, which is using topographic maps to represent the zoomx2 and zoomx3 views and the default terrain set for the zoomx1 view. This system works wel, but it isn't exactly easy to set up. I have figured out part of it by trial and error, but some of it still eludes me. I will start this thread by posing a series of questions, then posting the answers when I can find them. If you have additional information, feel free to chime in and share the wealth.
tis hard to do much with the ADC-2 map maker atm :)

more practice required - and/or a clean install :D

[Don Maddox]

1. ADC2 can use scanned-in images as a base map. Since POA2 uses 100 meters/hex as its primary wargame scale, does it make a difference what the physical size of the topographic .bmp base image is? Does it need to be resized to some specific ratio so that ADC2 can create the correct size hexes? How does this work?

2. When I use ADC2 to open one of the existing POA2 maps, all I see is the "elevation data," I don't see the topographic maps? Where are they?

3. Does ADC2 have some automatic feature that can fill in hexes with the appropriate elevation color based on the elevation data that has been entered for each hex?

4. Can ADC2 import elevation data from another program?

5. Okay, I have imported a bitmap image into ADC2 as a base map, how do I get the system to display a grid?

6. How does the maps import the default info into the Hexsides and Hexlines tabs at the top of the ADC2 map editor interface? Is there some way to load this information from an existing POA2 map, or must this information be manually retyped for each map?

7. When filling in terrain at the zoomx1 level with the default POA2 terrain set, is there a way to make ADC2 automatically put the "edges" on a hex? For example: when woods is used in a given hex it fills in the entire hex, but that's it -- we now have a perfect hex of woods. Completely unnatural looking. The default POA2 terrain set includes "edges" for every terrain type, such as woods, that can be applied to make such terrain have irregular shapes and more natural looking. These can be applied one at a time on a indivudual basis, but this makes creating even a simple map a huge chore. Isn't there some kind of way to make the system do this for you?

8. I'm working on a topographic map. I've just finished filling in each hex with the appropriate "color" for each elevation as primary terrain. Now I can't see the topographic map at all! How can I enter the secondary terrain or attritbutes if I can't see the original map? Is there some way to toggle off the primary terrain so I can under it?

[Ivan Rapkinov]

Don, I strongly suggest dling the ADC-2 help file (NOT the updated manual) at the HPS ADC page - gives a step by step for creating maps and so forth, as well as FAQs.

I'll try to answer some of your q's from what I've seen thus far.

3. assign a colour/texture to your symbol set for different elevations, then use the fill function to with this value to create the different heights.

5. Go the Hexlines drop down, and select add hexlines.

OR

go to Tools -> auto place sysmobls for hexlines (I think)

7. I *think* you can go to Preferences -> Add Hexside mode is Map. Clicking this chnages the mode to form, and then I *think* any hex of that type will have the hexside chnaged to that. I *think*... ;)

8.Go to prefernces and select Map Overlay On or Off.

[Don Maddox]

Don, I strongly suggest dling the ADC-2 help file (NOT the updated manual) at the HPS ADC page - gives a step by step for creating maps and so forth, as well as FAQs.Yep. I'm reading through it now.

5. Go the Hexlines drop down, and select add hexlines.
Yes, this can add them one at a time by filling in all the appropriate info. But there are a huge number of these to enter. Surely, there must be a way to import this from an existing map rather than entering each one again, one by one.

OR

go to Tools -> auto place sysmobls for hexlines (I think)
Have you actually tried this? I have and I'm not sure what this process is actually for. It seems to be a function of some kind that allows you to replace certain hexsides with another symbol.

7. I *think* you can go to Preferences -> Add Hexside mode is Map. Clicking this chnages the mode to form, and then I *think* any hex of that type will have the hexside chnaged to that. I *think*... ;)
Well if it does, I can't get it to work. I don't see any difference when you click this.

8.Go to prefernces and select Map Overlay On or Off.That doesn't work. All that does is toggle the hexex on and off.

[HPS]

I suspect most players will want to stick with the system that has already been established for POA2, which is using topographic maps to represent the zoomx2 and zoomx3 views and the default terrain set for the zoomx1 view. This system works wel, but it isn't exactly easy to set up. I have figured out part of it by trial and error, but some of it still eludes me. I will start this thread by posing a series of questions, then posting the answers when I can find them. If you have additional information, feel free to chime in and share the wealth.
As for map creation, there are lots of ways to do it - but this is how I did
it:

a) I selected the topo map portion I wanted to use, scanned it is for zoom 3 and scaled it according to the symbol set zoom sizes (since you know a hex measures 100 meters at each zoom). I think that works out to 10 mpp (meters per pixel)/5mpp and ~1.3 mpp, using zooms of 10, 20 and 70, respectively.

b) I then created a new symbol set by coping the one that came with the game (either squares or hexes). I then adjusted this symbol set to display only small colored dots at each zoom level, in different positions relative to the center of the hex so they won't be on top of each other if multiple terrain types are placed in the hex. The rest of the symbol is transparent, so the underlying map will show through. The reason for this is so that you'll see the small dots or squares for what you have already placed in a hex, but you can still "see through" it to the map underneath to see what else might be added. Since the symbol order in this modified set is the same as the "real" one, everything will line up OK later when you switch back to the original set.

c) You only need to enter the basic terrain types from the "start" of the list. The rest are cosmetic (of course, you can add them directly if you like, but that takes much more time). ADC-2 also includes an automatic routine to "randomize" terrain with the same name. So, you can place the first "woods" all over the map, then go back and run the routine, and it will replace the initial woods symbol with the other "woods" symbols (I think Nick defined 9 or 10) in the set randomly. Note - as long as you stick to only the first series of terrain, you only need to convert those symbols to the "dots" - so it's a lot quicker.

d) The easiest way I found to do elevations is to "outline" an area, and then fill it in (Elevations | Fill Map Board Elevations). However, I think other creators entered the elevation value hex by hex. There is also a routine that "checks" the elevations to see if any are way out of range - normally indicating that an elevation wasn't entered, or was done incorrectly (Elevations | Verify Elevation Ranges).

e) The "ground" should be set to the secondary terrain, and any other terrain features should be entered as attributes. That way you can use the automatic routine to create elevation shading primary terrain across the map once all the actual hex elevations are entered, and POA-2 "expects" the elevation shading symbol to be in the primary position (Tools | Auto-place Symbols for Elevations).

f) ADC-2 also allows you to turn off the display of individual terrain "types", so you can see only the attributes, for example (Preferences | Toggle Map Items Drawn).

g) There is no standard map size, other than if you want to use a single bitmap (and I would highly suggest that), WinXP has the same bitmap size limits as W98 (IIRC - about 1000 x 2000 pixels). At first, I'd say stick to the size of Puchendorf. If you want to create larger maps later, and want to use underlying topos or other graphics, you'll need to use multiple mapsheets. The size of the graphics file is in a large part up to the creator - by setting the size and color depth.

h) Hexlines/sides must be placed normally - POA-2 clues in on them for movement and other effects. However, to make things easy, ADC-2 includes a routine which will automatically place the "cosmetic" road and river symbols in each hex on the map once the lines have been placed. (Tools | Auto-place Symbols for Hexlines)

BTW - You don't have to use a topo if you don't want to - you can use anything or nothing at all (and just use terrain tiles). It's all up to you. Obviously, maps without accompanying topos or graphics will be much smaller - usually only 500KB or so for even the really big ones.

i) When you're done, change the symbol set back to the "real" (original) one, and see how it looks (Tools | Change Symbol Set).

I hope that helps, at least for now. If you have specific questions, please let me know.

-Scott

[Don Maddox]

a) I selected the topo map portion I wanted to use, scanned it is for zoom 3 and scaled it according to the symbol set zoom sizes (since you know a hex measures 100 meters at each zoom). I think that works out to 10 mpp (meters per pixel)/5mpp and ~1.3 mpp, using zooms of 10, 20 and 70, respectively.When starting a new map from scratch and using a topo map, the initial setup screen gives the option to adjust the three zoom levels. The default values are zoom1 = 5, zoom2 = 15, and zoom3 = 35. Should these always be left at the default value or what? What do the maps that came with the game use?

Is there an easy way to resize a map to 10mpp?

b) I then created a new symbol set by coping the one that came with the game (either squares or hexes).
Can you share this file so we can use it as a template?

c) You only need to enter the basic terrain types from the "start" of the list. The rest are cosmetic (of course, you can add them directly if you like, but that takes much more time). ADC-2 also includes an automatic routine to "randomize" terrain with the same name.
Cosmetic terrain? I assume you mean that adding the "edges" that go around the outside of a woods hex, for example, are merely cosmetic additions and overlooked by the game engine for its computations. Unless I am way off target (and I may be) the game engine does "see" terrain types like orchards, trees, buildings, and roads. Yet these are set as attributes in the default maps. Which terrain types are actually considered by the game engine for combat and LOS purposes and which ones are "cosmetic?"

f) ADC-2 also allows you to turn off the display of individual terrain "types", so you can see only the attributes, for example (Preferences | Toggle Map Items Drawn).
It does? I must be blind because I can't find this option. I see an option under preferences that allows you to change the order in which things are drawn, but not toggle them on and off.

g) There is no standard map size, other than if you want to use a single bitmap (and I would highly suggest that), WinXP has the same bitmap size limits as W98 (IIRC - about 1000 x 2000 pixels). At first, I'd say stick to the size of Puchendorf. If you want to create larger maps later, and want to use underlying topos or other graphics, you'll need to use multiple mapsheets. The size of the graphics file is in a large part up to the creator - by setting the size and color depth.

So far, I've had little luck in this department. I can't even seem to get the editor to load one of the original .bmp files. I can get it to load as "zoom 3 base," but that makes the map appear too tiny. If I try to load it as zoom1 or zoom2, I get errors saying the file is larger than 4MB and an error has occured. I must be missing something here.

h) Hexlines/sides must be placed normally - POA-2 clues in on them for movement and other effects. However, to make things easy, ADC-2 includes a routine which will automatically place the "cosmetic" road and river symbols in each hex on the map once the lines have been placed. (Tools | Auto-place Symbols for Hexlines)
Okay. How do we load the default hexline and hexside settings? Must these be entered manually for each new map?

BTW - You don't have to use a topo if you don't want to - you can use anything or nothing at all (and just use terrain tiles). It's all up to you. Obviously, maps without accompanying topos or graphics will be much smaller - usually only 500KB or so for even the really big ones.That's true, but there is a problem here. I agree that omitting the topographic map and sticking to hexes for all three zooms would make the file much smaller, however, POA2 didn't include terrain sets for anything other than zoom 1. So when viewing a map at anything other than the closest zoom level, the player will see nothing but the colors for elevation data and the unit icons. Why this was left out I don't know as for all practical purposes it forces the player to use a .bmp map image of some type. Sure, we could come up with some new terrain files ourselves, but it would be much better if there were official terrain for zoom 2 and 3 just like there are for zoom 1.

[Ivan Rapkinov]

Don - I think Scott means set the zoom1- 10, zoom2 - 20, zoom3- 70.

Scott - my copy of ADC (v2.14) doesn't have an Elevation -> Verify elevation ranges. Is that a developer tool, or am I missing something? :)

Also, are the maps constrained to 4MB total? or per zoom level?

[Don Maddox]

Don - I think Scott means set the zoom1- 10, zoom2 - 20, zoom3- 70.I thought about that too, but I want to know for sure prior to investing a huge amount of time into a map that I have to throw out.

Scott - my copy of ADC (v2.14) doesn't have an Elevation -> Verify elevation ranges. Is that a developer tool, or am I missing something?I'm using the same version and mine doesn't have it either that I can see. Perhaps Scott is using an updated version that hasn't been released yet.

[HPS]

I've also asked Nick if he has a copy of the "construction" symbol set I described for building POA-2 maps with ADC-2 (I can't find the one I used). I haven't heard back yet, but if he has it handy I'll post it too. BTW - the only symbols you need to place on the map are the ones between Open (#89) and Paving (#131).

[HPS]

If you want to use the default symbol set that comes with the game (and if you don’t you’ll need to make you own), the default zoom sizes are: 10, 20 and 70. You can always tell simply by opening the set (poa2-hhex-summer.set) in the symbol editor and viewing the mapboard (terrain) symbols.

ADC-2 will resize the BMP for you based on the zoom level scales (although the re-scaler it uses isn’t all that hot). However, you can also use any paint type program to do it, including Windows Paint, which will usually give you better results. If you get confused about how big it should be - look at the sample maps that came with the game and keep the same ratios (between zoom levels and also between meters on the ground and pixels). For example, using the Bluefields zoom 3 map (70 pixels = 100 meters), it is 2430 pixels across the top, which equates to about 3500 meters or so (~1.43 meters per pixel). If it’s not exact, that’s OK, but try to keep it close or the map locations will “jump” between zoom levels.

Unfortunately, you can’t import the default POA2 hexlines from another map, unless you copy the entire map. While that can work (you’d have to resize the copy), it’s probably more trouble than it’s worth. Adding a utility to do this is on my “wish list” for ADC-2, but I haven’t been able to get to it with all the other stuff going on.

[Ivan Rapkinov]

Scott:

I was reading the consimworld ADC forum, and Nick Bell mentioned something about ADC3.

is that the version you used? It would explain some differences in the interfaces (v2.14)

[Ivan Rapkinov]

Ok, I have a 1:12500 map of Port au Prince, Haiti - how best do I go making this into a POA2 map?

ie what scaling do I need, terrian sets etc - most of this I can figure out, but I wanted Scott to answer this so that in the future, people can use this as a reference point :)

btw - is ADC3 limited to 4MB map files?

[Don Maddox]

Scott - my copy of ADC (v2.14) doesn't have an Elevation -> Verify elevation ranges. Is that a developer tool, or am I missing something? :)


We finally figured it out. This command is only available in version 2.15 beta, which is not posted on the HPS webpage as of yet. Scott sent me a copy and it works now.

[HPS]

Cosmetic terrain? I assume you mean that adding the "edges" that go around the outside of a woods hex, for example, are merely cosmetic additions and overlooked by the game engine for its computations. Unless I am way off target (and I may be) the game engine does "see" terrain types like orchards, trees, buildings, and roads. Yet these are set as attributes in the default maps. Which terrain types are actually considered by the game engine for combat and LOS purposes and which ones are "cosmetic?"
If you ever want to know which types are purely cosmetic and which are linked in the TEC, go to the TEC editor and select “Link this set to a Map” form the main menu. The symbols will appear on one side, and the TEC line they are linked to on the other (“not linked” = cosmetic).

[HPS]

Okay. How do we load the default hexline and hexside settings? Must these be entered manually for each new map?

Don, I sent you a copy of the ADC v 2.15 beta. This version allows you to copy hexline defs from another map (for POA2 map creation).

If this checks out, I'll release ADC v 2.15 officially next week. That patch will also include the PlayGame module that takes longer file names (500 instead of 80 characters).

Hopefully that will be it for a while with ADC-2.

[Don Maddox]

Scott, I got v 2.15 and it is working well. The extra commands do come in handy. All the problems I was having with the previous versions seem to have been solved as it is working fine.

I figured out the cosmetic terrain vs. linked terrain. I needed to know for the revised symbol project. It's actually not as complicated as I thought. Of course, I can say that now that i have it figured out! :D Everything is easy when you know how to do it. When I get done with all of this I may do a map making tutorial.