We're going to need a map making tutorial

[Don Maddox]

Wow, I just spent some time fooling with the Aide De Camp 2 map editor. It's now readily apparent to me that this isn't going to be easy without a walkthrough. Has anyone written any tutorials on making maps with ADC2?

I hope this isn't going to be as complicated as it seems at first glance... :confused:

[HPS]

I don’t know if we’ll do a tutorial sort of thing for map creation or not. My main map creator started on something like that, but a lot of real life stuff came up and he wasn’t able to continue working on it. I’ve asked another experienced map-creator if he wants to do it, but he hasn’t decided yet. But hopefully we’ll get something together soon.

[Don Maddox]

Just got ADC 2 in the mail today- haven't even been able to take off the wrapper yet. I've made maps for a number of games- once I get familiar with ADC 2 I will try to write something up.
Okay, good. When you get them done we can host them in our POA2 map archive. There aren't any files there yet, but I hope that will change before long.

[HPS]

It’s going to be a while before I can get the documentation done for the scenario creation. The delay is because I want to take care of bugs first, but also because we’re going to revamp the creation process and I don’t want to waste time writing about the current system when I know it’s going to be at least partially changed.

One other thing I’d like to suggest, for those users who don’t mind helping me squash the bugs, is that they save their files every turn to a different name. The problem we’re running into is that folks send us files, and we can’t replicate their crashes - because the cause was likely something that happened in a previous turn but was cleared when the file was saved and re-loaded. I know it’s a pain the neck, but it’s probably the only way we’ll ever get some of these things. Also, they should be using the latest patch file and the original databases.

[tws71669]

So maybe the standard format for submission should be T1 T2 T3 etc as a savename? each turn just bump it up a #.
Also, in regards to map making, I use ArcView and MapCAD 2004 for a lot of DEM/DTM stuff. Can I use digitized and modelled material from USGN and NOIA sources in ADC2, and thus port them into POA2.
The GIS software I am familiair with has a tremendous (about $2K U.S. worth) of potential for creating different maps, but I don't know if ADC2 and hence POA2 could interface with such. Anyone have any knowledge about importing into ADC2 DOD quality material from actual terrain models...? help... pleeeze...

[Don Maddox]

Anyone have any knowledge about importing into ADC2 DOD quality material from actual terrain models...? help... pleeeze...
I believe I remember hearing Scott say that this isn't possible at this time. The only way to make maps right now is with Aid De Camp 2. I could be wrong about that though...

Can these map programs of yours produce a topographic image? We may not be able to import the actual elevation data, but it sure would be nice to have a utility that could produce an image that we can use for the topographic map.

1:25,000 and 1:50,000 maps work best and the only source I know for these is the military. Scenario authors will most likely want maps for places like the DMZ in Korea, portions of the Middle East, Africa etc, are not going to be easy to get maps for. I have a complete set of paper 1:500,000 topographic maps for Iraq and Iran, but these aren't much good for POA2. I know there is software on the market that can produce topographic maps for just about anyplace, but I have no idea which programs would be useful or how to use them.

We are either going to need a reliable utility that can produce topographic map images for us, or we need a source for maps of this scale on the internet. If anyone has any ideas please feel free to share them.

[tws71669]

I believe I remember hearing Scott say that this isn't possible at this time. The only way to make maps right now is with Aid De Camp 2. I could be wrong about that though...

Can these map programs of yours produce a topographic image? We may not be able to import the actual elevation data, but it sure would be nice to have a utility that could produce an image that we can use for the topographic map.
Yes... in isometric, 3D or vrml... and straight topo/shaded. I can import elevation data but sources are Hard to get. ONI and DMA have some stuff and the French/Russians have been selling this kind of data opensource now for several years. It's relatively cheap for what you get. It's funny you should ask about the regions you mentioned. I was just working up a digital terrain model of the DMZ and the greater Bagdahd area.

This is going to be all for naught though if I can't drag the data into ADC2... which I currently don't own.

I was really hoping ADC could import common CAD or image formats... if it can, I am in businesse so anyone please keep me posted, especially if you own a copy.

Maddox, thanks for the insight. I am going to keep researching this.

-T

[tws71669]

If I have time tonight I might try and post a attachement or screenshot to give an idea of what I can make... the local area Bagdhad map is very detailed but is probably closer to 1:25000 and HUGE. like 14.6MB so it's gonna need to be seriosly shrunk.

[Ivan Rapkinov]

I use WinTopo Pro and BlackArt 2.0 to convert scanned topo maps to DEMs (uses raster vectorisation and other such big words) - both free (well, WinTopo needs be be registered for a modest fee) and will even create ATF usable DEMs ;)

I'm more interested in taking a scanned image and assigning eelevation to it a la the TacOps map editor (though in that case, there's two elevations...)

Or even using Squad Battles level maps and overlaying the image whilst keeping the elevation data (unlikely, I know, but one can hope)

first on my agenda is a Groznyy map, then Argun Gorge, then whatever - Dili/Aceh (need some Aussies for that though :( ;) )

[Don Maddox]

Well, if we can at least get topographic images, it shouldn't be difficult to tranform the file into a standard .bmp image that we can use in Aid De Camp 2. Does this mean we are going to have to enter the elevation data and terrain manually? Yes. Currently, that is the only way to make maps for POA2. That might sound harsh, but it's no different than making maps for TOAW, East front, West front, etc. I only know of about two wargames that have any ability whatsoever to import data from an outside source. Most of the time you have to do it the hard way - one hex at a time.

Simply finding a .jpg, .gif, .tif, or whatever that I could convert to .bmp format for the topographic image was my greatest fear. I have experimented a little in Paint Shop Pro and it's easy to reduce .bmp files to 256 colors, which is hardly noticeable on most images. This greatly reduces the size of the file and zipping it reduces it even further.


Yes... in isometric, 3D or vrml... and straight topo/shaded. I can import elevation data but sources are Hard to get. ONI and DMA have some stuff and the French/Russians have been selling this kind of data opensource now for several years. It's relatively cheap for what you get. It's funny you should ask about the regions you mentioned. I was just working up a digital terrain model of the DMZ and the greater Bagdahd area.


Great! Post a screenshot or two so we can see what this program can do. If anyone has any other great ideas be sure to post them here. Also, please post link to where we can find these utilities.

On a side note, owners of POA2 can buy Aid de Camp 2 right now at a discount. Check the HPS homepage.

[tws71669]

first on my agenda is a Groznyy map,


--- Ahh.... the dukhi fighting some makhra ? haha
a good idea I think tovarisch!

[tws71669]

Okay... just a short update on my map importing efforts.
I have decided to use 1M resolution per pixel data from KH11/3 sources. This puts everything circa 1998 to the current date so nothing is too outdated for our purposes.
I can export the raw data into pale b/w images of very clear detail that provide a nice contrast to the unit colours we play with. These can be scaled to appropriate sizes for the units represented on the scale that POA2 models them since every pixel is 1M at max zoom out.
I would like to know from anyone what the terrain scale is for each of the three zoom levels in POA2, then I can manipulate the imagry somewhat and see if I can get a genuinely accurate fit. The largest zoom would be 1:50000 simple topographic format (if I can crack that nut), the second would be 1M per pixel sat-image, and the third is still being worked out, I don't want to lose the effect but it may end up being a classic loking hex-ish format. The first two maps themselves can be any file format POA2 needs them to be... I think it takes graphic image formats, or at least ADC2 should.

This has been very time consuming and brings my AMD2800+ with 2 gigs of RAM to its knees for an hour at a time... but I really think the results will be awsome. I have seen the beta shots I finished and it really puts some clear cut images on the screen. You wanna fight at the gates of Al-Najaf, I'm gonna make sure you can see the grains of sand all the way up to the royal palace's front doors... heehee
If anyone has ideas, comments or suggestions, please tell me...


Regards,
Tiberius

[Don Maddox]

Do we have any software that can create maps with contour lines on them?

[tws71669]

Do we have any software that can create maps with contour lines on them?

There is a tool I have from GARMIN I believe, that will interpet rasterized data into topographic contours accurate to elevation in 10 meter increments. What file formats do my maps need to be for ADC2 to make them usefull?

Regards,
Tiberius

[Don Maddox]

There is a tool I have from GARMIN I believe, that will interpet rasterized data into topographic contours accurate to elevation in 10 meter increments. What file formats do my maps need to be for ADC2 to make them usefull?

Regards,
Tiberius
ADC2 simply uses a .bmp image of a topographic map for the two zoomed out views. After loading this "map" you have to manually input the elevation and terrain type info.

[Ivan Rapkinov]

ADC2 simply uses a .bmp image of a topographic map for the two zoomed out views. After loading this "map" you have to manually input the elevation and terrain type info.
akin to the TacOps map editor?

[Ivan Rapkinov]

Do we have any software that can create maps with contour lines on them?
going back from DEMs to rasterized topo maps you mean?

BlackArt will do it, but it looks messy. Given DEMs are as rare as hen's teeth in the civilian sector (unless you want to pay megabucks), should be easier just to get get the rasters.

paper maps are the best, but they have nasty writing on them that is messy to delete...

[Don Maddox]

akin to the TacOps map editor?I'm not sure as I haven't played TacOps yet. I believe TacOps simply uses images for the maps, while the actual terrain info is in a separate file. Correct?

Yes, I think scans of paper maps would be best, although I was hoping someone had something that could actually produce an image that looked like a regular paper map.

The problem with the paper maps is getting them. If we could get them on CD I'm sure we could find a way to create an image from them, even if we had to resort to "print screen." Not very glamorous, but it works. 1:500,000 maps are not all that difficult to find, but 1:25,000? These are much more difficult to get.

I know at one time the Army had nearly all the 1:50,000 maps on CD. The problem is that I do not know if these were "unlimited distribution" or not. I also believe the whole set was something like 50 CDs! I'm also not sure if this was availble for retail sale, but I imagine it would be expensive if it were.

Everyone keep posting ideas. I'm sure we'll come up with someting.

[Ivan Rapkinov]

well basically any TacOps map can be imported then - most of the USMC bases and some canadian ones have all been done. But then there's the issue of copyright.

[Don Maddox]

well basically any TacOps map can be imported then - most of the USMC bases and some canadian ones have all been done. But then there's the issue of copyright.
Are these sold with the game or has someone scanned them from paper copies or what? What scale are they?

[Ivan Rapkinov]

Are these sold with the game or has someone scanned them from paper copies or what? What scale are they?
iirc they're all 1:50,000 - don't quote me on that

Some maps were released with the game, others were released as gimmes from the USMC (like 29 Palms).

not sure on whether redoing them for another game would be considered rude or not ;) :D

[tws71669]

Yes, I think scans of paper maps would be best, although I was hoping someone had something that could actually produce an image that looked like a regular paper map.


This is exactly what my goal is, by getting the sat. data and putting it into 1:50000 format I am going to try and create topographical papermap looking .bmp file. But with the superbowl on this weekend, it's gonna be a little while before I have some good stuff to post!

[Don Maddox]

This is exactly what my goal is, by getting the sat. data and putting it into 1:50000 format I am going to try and create topographical papermap looking .bmp file. But with the superbowl on this weekend, it's gonna be a little while before I have some good stuff to post!
Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

[Don Maddox]

I just spent the last several hours messing with the ADC2 map editor again. This time, I was serious about it and spent some serious time trying to figure out how it works. I've made a good deal of progress, but this isn't a user-friendly process. There are many aspects of it that I just can't seem to understand how they were done for the game.

I'm opening the original scenarios and attempting to reverse engineer them to see how things were done. I will say this: if you are technically profficient and have some time to spend, this system offers the designer a huge degree of flexibility to do almost whatever you want. You can create maps that look entirely different than what came with the game and they will work fine as long as you include all the necessary files. That part of the system is very neat and very powerful.

On the other hand, if you don't know what you're doing, this is just painful. Granted, I'm having to learn a lot of this the hard way. It probably wouldn't be nearly as difficult if there were a step by step tutorial. If I get this thing figured out I may do one myself.

If any of you have experience with the AID2 map editor, please fell free to lend us your expertise.

[TDR]

OK dragging out old posts here...:laugh:

I have been trawling the old scenario design stuff re ADC2 and map making for a way to build maps unconnected to real 3arc sec DEM data. Though it is possible to get needed actual DEM data and view real world via Google Earth it has some level of drawback with abstract map/scenario design

Now if one has read DrunkRussian’s tutorial, “Creating Maps from SRTM Data – Tutorial”, on making maps there is a point where the selected 1 x 1 degree square is converted to ArcInfo ASCII Grid format. This is all done using the program VTBuilder. This ArcInfo ASCII Grid is a format that can be manipulated to build any height terrain type. It has one minor drawback there are 1200 x 1200 row colums of height data stored in the file. Now the ATF/AATF system can only deal with at best a 50 x 50 Km map, which is much less than a 1 x 1 deg square, hence all the 1200 x 1200 values are not needed, that is can be a value of ZERO.

Now the problem being to get the “abstract” height values into a file format that is the same as the ArcInfo ASCII Grid format.
This is where ADC2 comes in I hope. So after reading this thread and a few others can height data be extracted from the elevation aspect of a ADC2 map?

If so there is a possible extended life to making ATF/AATF maps.

As an example of abstract scenarios, there are about 126 USMC Tactical Decision Games which ca all be ported into ATF/AATF if this concept can work.

I suggest ADC2 as this would be a good way to build the basic TDG maps for the scenarios and the ‘nominal' elevations can be fed through a small program to make the ArcInfo ASCII Grid format file to go through the normal elevation/map process.

[Pat Proctor]

One of the reasons I selected USGS 3 arcsecond DEMS as the format for making BCT/ATF/AATF maps was that it was in a text format that can be manipulated. If you make your alpha value 0, your ATF generated map will use the same north-south as the DEM. You will not be able to get a direct 1 to 1 correlation of the data points, however, because the ATF map generator uses a hard-coded second-latitude-to-meter conversion factor. (28.4 m/s, I think). That means, at least in vertically, the data is in ~78 m intervals, while ATF samples at 100m intervals.

All of that having been said, a program to create or edit ASCII DEMs to add raise or lower terrain would be a great tool. I am not sure it has a broad enough user base potential to justify our building it, but if someone else wants to take a stab, I will give the software the broadest possible dessimination (and, of course, give credit where credit is due).

[TDR]

At present I am in the “think” process. As it stands ADC2 can not produce the elevation information in a separate file. So fundamentally there is no simple approach to getting a elevation mapping tool easily.

With the user designed type maps where elevation is in essence “what you want” cf what is really there, the latitude disparity may be a minor issues, or possibly be covered by some “in program” manipulation.

The main thing is to get some form of editor to create the ASCII Dem file that can be passed to DEMCON, the DEM converter and on to the ATF/AATF Power Tool kit.

With respect to the alpha value I considered this should for these types of maps to be ZERO as it is somewhat meaningless to have it otherwise.

Anyway thoughts progressing...:)