Help with Helicopters

[MikeSinn]

Hello all,

I just received the game and have spent some time reviewing all the posts here and at the Wargame.ch site. I am having quite a bit of fun digging into all the details availble in POA2 but helicopters have me stymied...

In short, I can't seem to get helicopter to move. It doesn't seem to matter whether I am playing one of the premade scenerios or working with my own, the results are the same. Here is what I am doing...

I click the "Movement" button on the tool bar, and click the helicopter unit I want to move. In the Movement pop-up window, I select "direct path" (Best path takes way too long on my PC). I click the location where the Helicopter should move to. At that point, I notice the "Movement time estimate" changes to 100+ hours to complete. I verify that the helicopter is airborne and that the speed is set but it never moves.

As I have not seen anyone else raise this issue, I have to believe it is something I am doing wrong but I don't have a clue what that could be. Any help/suggestions from this group would be appreciated.

Thanks
Mike

[Don Maddox]

I've contacted Scott on this and he'll be getting back to us with some answers. I had a similar problem, but I'm still trying to figure it out on my own.

[Don Maddox]

Not having much luck. When I select helicopters and give them move orders with "find best route" enabled, the computer seems to crunch some numbers but comes up with nothing. The same thing happens with the medium setting. When "direct path" is used the little square movement icons to the destination location and show up and the S3 shows the unit as having orders, however, the unit never moves. I thought it might be some type of command delay, but that doesn't seem to be it either. I'm stumped.

I had two Cobra's in this scenario, but never got either to do anything. The computer also said that no units were available when I tried to assign air missions.

:hmmm:

[MikeSinn]

Don,

Thanks for the follow-up. I am somewhat relieved that others are experiencing the same issue and that I just didn't miss the obvious.

Like you, I at first thought some type of command delay was involved but then I noticed that as soon as any movement order was given, the Path Time displayed in the movement window jumped to between 111 - 666 hours. My only guess is that the helicopter is driving not flying to the location :(

I look forward to hearing what Scott has to say on the matter.

Thanks,
Mike

[HPS]

The helicopter movement bug has been fixed in the first patch.

[Don Maddox]

The helicopter movement bug has been fixed in the first patch.
Okay, it was a bug. I thought I was losing my mind or something. :crosseye:

[Marty]

The problem with helicopter movement is in the database. It has all helicopters listed with a 0 kph cross country speed. If you edit the cross coutnry speed to match the road speed the helicopters will zoom around the battlefield with ease.

[MikeSinn]

The problem with helicopter movement is in the database. It has all helicopters listed with a 0 kph cross country speed. If you edit the cross coutnry speed to match the road speed the helicopters will zoom around the battlefield with ease.


Marty,

Great find!!! That did the trick for me. I now have functioning helicopters in all scenerios. This is a great temporary fix until the HPS is able to release the first patch.

Thanks,
Mike

[Harry_2]

Even with editing and saving the DB with the edited helo speeds, my helos still dont move on map. I get a flashing "A circle" above the Helo Icons, but when plotting a move the unit now shows(what appears to be) a correct ETA.

This game has me extremely confused, I'm just gonna wait for the patch.


H2

[Don Maddox]

Even with editing and saving the DB with the edited helo speeds, my helos still dont move on map. I get a flashing "A circle" above the Helo Icons, but when plotting a move the unit now shows(what appears to be) a correct ETA.
This game has me extremely confused, I'm just gonna wait for the patch.


H2
Hmmm, my helicopters are working fine since I made the suggested changes. What did you change the values to? And what scenario are you playing?

[Harry_2]

I edited the DB for the Helo units by duplicating whatever their on road speed was, and subbed it in for the cross country speed. The scenario is #2
the 101 vs Alqueda. Just so you know Im not a newb...I'm a long time ATF/BCT and tacops player. The turn runs, the airstrike A icon apears over the helo and then disappears with the units remaining where they began.

I just noticed In the other thread this scenario is reffered to as #3 it is actually #2

H2

[Don Maddox]

I edited the DB for the Helo units by duplicating whatever their on road speed was, and subbed it in for the cross country speed. The scenario is #2
the 101 vs Alqueda. Just so you know Im not a newb...I'm a long time ATF/BCT and tacops player. The turn runs, the airstrike A icon apears over the helo and then disappears with the units remaining where they began.

I just noticed In the other thread this scenario is reffered to as #3 it is actually #2

H2
I'll see if I can duplicate this.

[Harry_2]

Don that is the last game and turn I played, I'll send you the autosave if you want. Let me know


H2

[MikeSinn]

Don that is the last game and turn I played, I'll send you the autosave if you want. Let me know


H2

Harry,

I did some testing myself over the weekend and noticed the same problem with Scenerio #2. It appears that the problem with the AH-1s in that scenerio is do to them trying to "un-emplace".

When you first issue movement orders for the choppers, the eta and path is reported correctly. However, after running the first turn, their movement orders are modified and an "Un-emplace" command is inserted as their first movement order. This shows up as a "b" in their movement orders. It appears that these units are never able to un-emplace and therefore never begin moving.

This seems to be a problem only in that specific scenerio. The helicopters in the Korea scenerio and in a couple of homemade test scenerios move correctly. Has anyone tested AH-1s in other scenerios?

This actually brings up another question I have about Helicopters. How do you order a unit (Helicopter or otherwise) to emplace?

In playing the Korea scenerio, I have never been able to get the Apaches to fire their Hellfire missiles. Each time I try to target a unit with their Hellfires, I see a message saying that the unit must be emplaced first (see attached image for a screenshot of the message). The manual mentions that some weapon systems require the unit to be emplaced before firing but it never states how to do this. I have tried changing the units speed to 0, leaving it in place for several turns and just about everything else I can think. All to no avail :mad:

Anyone else experiencing this problem/frustration?

Thanks,
Mike

[Don Maddox]

I don't know, but that is an interesting problem. I haven't had much luck with helicopters yet either. They are very vulnerable when they get too close to enemy APCs. I have learned to keep them further back, but like you, I haven't seen them contribute much in the way of fire support.

I don't understand what is meant by "emplace" for a helicopter. This could be a bug of some kind because it doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Has this problem been forwarded to Scott yet? I will send it to him and see what he has to say on the issue.

[MikeSinn]

I don't know, but that is an interesting problem. I haven't had much luck with helicopters yet either. They are very vulnerable when they get too close to enemy APCs. I have learned to keep them further back, but like you, I haven't seen them contribute much in the way of fire support.

I don't understand what is meant by "emplace" for a helicopter. This could be a bug of some kind because it doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Has this problem been forwarded to Scott yet? I will send it to him and see what he has to say on the issue.

Don,

I haven't contacted Scott yet. Since the manual mentions the need to emplace certain weapons before firing, I thought I was just missing something.

At first I thought emplacement for helicopters was something akin to a Pop-up attack. So I would make sure to place the unit behind covering terrain. Set it's speed to 0. After a turn, I would change it's altitude to 100 - 150, get a valid LOS to a target and then.... Nada, nothing, :dead:

Look forward to hearing what HPS thinks of the problem.

Thanks,
Mike

<edited to remove stupid grammer mistakes> :o

[Don Maddox]

I just sent this to Scott along with some other questions. We should have some answers within a day or two.

[meade95]

Glad to hear these issues with POA-2 have been updated with Scott....From my emails with them, it seems they were concered more (maybe only aware) of the issues with "movement" and helicopters...

While continually wanting to give HPS the benefit of the doubut, I seriously wonder how issues as simple as Helicopter movement and firing could have been over looked. These are 2 simple events that are needed within 95% of all simulated battles...

[Harry_2]

I also tried the helos in the different scenarios, with better success with movement but still no engagement. Also to note in the scenario(#3) NK Attack with US def, I am unable to get my mortar to fire either, has anyone else experienced problems with IF? ANytime I attempt to target with it I get a box in the middle of the IF Targeting screen that says "no IF capable units in range" Anyone else have problems with this?

Just as a note I lost both my AH--64 in this scenario to fire from 3xT62s at 1676 mtrs, Boy those NK know how to handle a Commanders MG. :dead:


H2

[meade95]

Lets hope the first patch covers / fixes all these area's within the helicopter bug....(not just movement)...

I am also surprised no AH-6 (little birds) were modeled in POA-2....

Another subject...has anyone looked at the "internal vaules" for some of the rifles? In the Accuracy values (Accy adj)...it shows the SAW being more accurate then the M4A1 (if I'm reading that right)..it also shows the M16 being more accurate then the M4 yet less accurate then the SAW?

This seems to be incorrect (unless it is used within the code as a way of giving more firepower behind the SAW because it throws out more lead??).

[Don Maddox]

Another subject...has anyone looked at the "internal vaules" for some of the rifles? In the Accuracy values (Accy adj)...it shows the SAW being more accurate then the M4A1 (if I'm reading that right)..it also shows the M16 being more accurate then the M4 yet less accurate then the SAW?

This seems to be incorrect (unless it is used within the code as a way of giving more firepower behind the SAW because it throws out more lead??).
I'm not sure what the tought process is behind these stats. A machine gun mounted on a bi-pod or tri-pod can be a lot more accurate than a simple assault rifle, but this depends on having enough time to set it up properly etc. Perhaps that's what the designer had in mind.

I also had an AH-64 shot down at extreme long range by a vehicle-mounted machine gun. Although this type of thing can happen, it's quite rare. I haven't done enough testing to get a feel for it yet, but some of these results may be a bit too "optimistic" on the part of the game engine.

[MikeSinn]

I have found a temporary fix to the emplacement problem I mentioned earlier. Looking through the Database entries for the AH-64 I found that it had an emplacement time of 7,200. This translates to 720 minutes or nearly 12 hours. Actually, all the helicopter units have this as their emplacement value.

I first tried to change this value to 10 or 1 minute but this still didn't allow the longbows to fire. I am guessing that this is probably because their speed is never 0. Even when I try manually setting the speed to 0, it always translates to 1 mph. This is probably just enough to prevent "emplacement". Once I set this value to 0, my Apaches were able to engage targets with their hellfires. :D

I haven't had a chance to test the AH-1s in Scenario #2 yet but I am betting that they will function correctly now as well.

On a related note, this problem in conjunction with the movement bug is as strong an argument as any for the inclusion of a complete database editor. Without the ability to make these modifications on my own, I would have spent $50 for a game where a critical set of units (used in a good portion of the included scenarios) were completely useless.

I know HPS is working hard on a patch to correct this and many other issues. I have no doubt that Scott and company will provide solid, continual support for POA2 well into the foreseeable future. However, because I was able to modify the underlying system to correct obvious bugs, this great game is not collecting dust on my self, and my frustration at spending $50 far too early is not growing.

Just my $.02

Thanks,
Mike

[meade95]

MikeSinn,

Glad you seem to have found what was causing the lack of engagement by Helicopters....(and I agree having some type of ability to adjust values would improve this game 100 fold!).

I think when looking at many of the weapon systems.....there seems to be a number of simple errors (which is normal for games and understandable....but having the ability to adjust these to vaules is also very needed and normal).....

Rifle accuracy could use some adjusting.....Special Infantry units could use some adjusting (higher / better values)....Infantry units could use some adjustments in terms of secondary weapons, etc...The obvious adjustments in the helicopter values and certainly there must be quite a few more...(still to be found)...

[Don Maddox]

I have mixed feelings on this issue. While I do think it is useful to be able to edit the database for troubleshhoting purposes, there is a definite need for everyone to be using one standard. If we all are using a different database with extra vehicles and/or modified values, how would we ever be able to have PBEM games? There would be mass confusion.

If we're just talking about being able to edit the database for the purpose of testing proposed changes, finding errors and troubleshooting, well we can already do that!

At any rate, have the results of the helicopter modifications been sent to Scott? And I also agree with an earlier comment that someone made about some of these bugs. It seems to me that the quality assurance process (beta testing) wasn't all that thorough. Some of these things are glaring errors and it's difficult to see how they were missed during beta. Still, we're making good progress abd the first patch will be a decent improvement.

[Crimguy]

I have mixed feelings on this issue. While I do think it is useful to be able to edit the database for troubleshhoting purposes, there is a definite need for everyone to be using one standard. If we all are using a different database with extra vehicles and/or modified values, how would we ever be able to have PBEM games? There would be mass confusion.

If we're just talking about being able to edit the database for the purpose of testing proposed changes, finding errors and troubleshooting, well we can already do that!

At any rate, have the results of the helicopter modifications been sent to Scott? And I also agree with an earlier comment that someone made about some of these bugs. It seems to me that the quality assurance process (beta testing) wasn't all that thorough. Some of these things are glaring errors and it's difficult to see how they were missed during beta. Still, we're making good progress abd the first patch will be a decent improvement.
That makes sense. I'm sure it's too late in the game for this suggestion, but perhaps having multiple databases with scenarios tied to certain databases would be the solution. Aside from allowing total control over the game, it would allow the scenario creator greatest control over the game - there could additionally be vietnam/wwII databases, etc.

[Don Maddox]

That makes sense. I'm sure it's too late in the game for this suggestion, but perhaps having multiple databases with scenarios tied to certain databases would be the solution. Aside from allowing total control over the game, it would allow the scenario creator greatest control over the game - there could additionally be vietnam/wwII databases, etc.
That may be how Scott plans to implement the WWII varient rather than creating a whole other stand-alone game. In fact, I would prefer it to be an add-on, not a separate title. He mentioned that there may need to be some "era specific tweaks" to the game engine to make the WWII stuff work, but I hope he finds a way around this. I would much rather see POA2 grow into a system with lots a weapons from different time periods rather than four or five different games.

[MikeSinn]

I have mixed feelings on this issue. While I do think it is useful to be able to edit the database for troubleshhoting purposes, there is a definite need for everyone to be using one standard. If we all are using a different database with extra vehicles and/or modified values, how would we ever be able to have PBEM games? There would be mass confusion.

If we're just talking about being able to edit the database for the purpose of testing proposed changes, finding errors and troubleshooting, well we can already do that!

At any rate, have the results of the helicopter modifications been sent to Scott? And I also agree with an earlier comment that someone made about some of these bugs. It seems to me that the quality assurance process (beta testing) wasn't all that thorough. Some of these things are glaring errors and it's difficult to see how they were missed during beta. Still, we're making good progress abd the first patch will be a decent improvement.
Don,

Yes, I sent my findings on to HPS this morning. Hopefully this will make it into the first patch.

Thanks,
Mike