Operation Design

[KG_Cloghaun]

I am leaning toward making an operation out of the project I am working on. The scenario will cover 3 battles over roughly a 24 hour period.

My question is this;

What is the time seperation for each battle in an operation? Are they meant to be one battle per day or is it left uninterpeted so I could write in the brief that one battle takes place in the early morning, the next in the afternoon and the last at dusk, all in one day?

Also,

What does "Opening battle time slot" mean?

Thankyou.

[Palantir]

Hey Cloghaun,

That info is in the manual (sort of)... BB page 157.
"Opening time slot" is what period of the day the battle will begin, from Dawn to night.
That manual I know is not very detailed or helpful.


As far as multipile briefings... I don't know, but I do know you can have up to a max of 20 "battles" in a single day. (assuming you select "no nights.")

I don't think too many designers are actually doing Operations.

Since I'm trying to figure out Operations & you're trying to figure out operations Email me and we can hash it out together. :)

Palantir

[KG_Cloghaun]

Latest troubles;

In working with the map editor for creating an operation, I am doing test trials to see how things come out.

The test, which somewhat reflects the actual op I want to do, is 3 battles long, 25 turns per day. I've picked a few units for both sides for day one and reinforcement units and had a battle window for the 1st battle. I wanted to see everything pan out, such as how big I would have to make the battle window, whether my reinforcement would show up the way I wanted to, etc,..

My initial problem is that when I go to play the test against the AI(with me as the Germans), the Russian units appear only 10 meters away from the Germans. I am sure when I created the map, I placed the russians within a deployment zone that was over a 1000 meters away. I do not understand why they pop up right next to me.

Question#2

I realize you can set the battle window for the 1st battle, but what about the following battles? If I have 3 battles in my op, can I make 3 battle windows, or does the 2nd battle by default reveal the entire map, regardless of anything?

Thankyou.

[Kraut]

Latest troubles;
My initial problem is that when I go to play the test against the AI(with me as the Germans), the Russian units appear only 10 meters away from the Germans. I am sure when I created the map, I placed the russians within a deployment zone that was over a 1000 meters away. I do not understand why they pop up right next to me.


You can change the distance of the no mans land, than the setup zones are seperated somewhat.

[KG_Cloghaun]

Why is a "no mans land" function there? Doesn't the deployment zones do the same thing?

[Kraut]

The setup zones only work for round one, the following setup zones are computer calculated and the 'no mans land' distance determines the distance between the setup-zones of the opposing forces. With a no mans land distance of 0m you could set up your forces withing handgrenade range of the enemy and that's most often unintended :)

[KG_Cloghaun]

I'm having a lot of difficulty figuring out the reinforcement part of the editor.

I know you can have a side reinforced at any point during a battle.

I also know that you can get reinforcements at the beginning of each new battle in an operation.

What I want to do is both. I want reinforcements in my operation to come during the middle of a battle as well as at the beginning of each new battle. (Tentatively, I have 3/25 turn battles in the operation.

My current problem is this;

I understand on the unit editor there is a drop-down reinforcement panel at the right of the page.
There is also a button at the bottom for battle arrival of units.

How I understand it is say you want reinforcements for battle #2. At the bottom, you set it for battle#2 and you pick your units. Now if I wanted more units to arrive during battle#2, say turn 5, I would go to reinforcement#5 and pick units, making sure the bottom button was on battle#2.

I ran tests where I have reinforcements arriving for the begining of each battle and that worked fine.
What doesnt work for me is trying to have units arrive on a particular turn in a battle.
I have for battle#2, reinforcements arriving for each slot, representing turns. But when I get to battle#2, all the reinforcements arrive at the beginning of the battle and not on the turns I want them to.

Is it possible in an operation to have units arrive on a particular turn in a particular battle with using the "scheduled" format and the "reserve" format?

[Kraut]

Is it possible in an operation to have units arrive on a particular turn in a particular battle with using the "scheduled" format and the "reserve" format?

As far as I know: No.

But I'm no pro, just started designing my first operation aswell, so don't take my answer as the final word :)

from my CMAK manual:

First possible arrival

For Battles, this number represents the first turn in which the
units from that reinforcement slot can appear. For operations, the
number represents the first BATTLE in which the units can enter,
and they will do so during the setup phase.

[Palantir]

Ohhhh, My head is begining to hurt! :)

That's how I read the rules- but they are still not detailed enough.

[KG_Cloghaun]

Ok, we've touched on the "No man's Land" function. This is to prevent the next battle from starting with the 2 opposing forces facing each other only a few meters apart.

My question is what if I have defending units dug into fortified positions just beyond the battle window(say 20 meters), waiting for the next battle and the attacker reaches the very end of the battle window in the previous battle. The "no man's land" is set for bigger than 20 meters. When the next battle starts what happens? Are the defenders pushed out of their positions or are the attackers deployed further back from where they advanced in the previous battle? Neither possibility seems fair. The defender could lose it's beautifully fortified defense or the attacker could lose an objective he paid dearly for and now has to retake it.

[Kraut]

Ok, we've touched on the "No man's Land" function. This is to prevent the next battle from starting with the 2 opposing forces facing each other only a few meters apart.

My question is what if I have defending units dug into fortified positions just beyond the battle window(say 20 meters), waiting for the next battle and the attacker reaches the very end of the battle window in the previous battle. The "no man's land" is set for bigger than 20 meters. When the next battle starts what happens? Are the defenders pushed out of their positions or are the attackers deployed further back from where they advanced in the previous battle? Neither possibility seems fair. The defender could lose it's beautifully fortified defense or the attacker could lose an objective he paid dearly for and now has to retake it.

If at the beginning of a round units are inside the enemy controlled setup zone they can stey there but are concidered unsupplied and wont get any supplies. They are than also in a special setup zone, so you can move these forward units back into your own terrain but you cant move fresh units up to your forward units.

Personally I dont really like the princip of a moving battle window that much, from my (limited) testing it's already enough if the attacker manages to sneak a single squad to the opposing side of the map to scroll the map consideraly, opening new setup positions with flanking possibilities.

That's why I'm designing my operation to be contiuously and I will forbit the player to move any unit during the setup phase and will assign him specific locations for his reinforcements. CM is really weak when it comes to scenario design, the designer has very little possibilities to control the flow of the battle thats why I think house rules are needed.

[Palantir]

That's why I'm designing my operation to be contiuously and I will forbit the player to move any unit during the setup phase and will assign him specific locations for his reinforcements.


(Operation to be "contiuously")

Can you give more detail on how you are doing this?
What do you mean exactly by continuous? Length of each battle?

I designed a Battle that simply grew too large (map/distance/running out of ammo early due to length probability). I should have started it as an Operation. So, I may try and tweak it by upping the Ammo of the first few turns of units so they won't be low after the beginning turns. I'm hoping it will extend their participation early beyong the "sit there and guard this" status figuring over-use & casualties will prevent them from being super units.

[Kraut]

(Operation to be "contiuously")

Can you give more detail on how you are doing this?
What do you mean exactly by continuous? Length of each battle?



I am planing an operation (with 20 battles for the moment), each battle lasting 15 turns, no night combat on a static map. Each battle is meant to start directly after the previous, the simple reason why it's a campaign and no single battle is so that units can replenish ammo.

The house rule (no unit is allowed to be moved during the setup phase at the beginning of a battle) is meant to prevent units magically warping forward, behind enemy positions or over terrain with little cover.

The biggest problem in a battle is usually that units run out of ammo and cant continue to press forward, as a result the battle stalls or ridiculous manneuvers are tried to capture a final flag (which in reality all to often is just a strategic and tactically insignificant patch of wood or something similar), often resulting in unnecessary losses. I hope to avoid this by giving the attacker the time and ammo necessary to fulfill his mission but to compensate for weaknesses of operations (setup zones) I had to inroduce these house rules. Operations have other weaknesses aswell (reinforcements can only appear at the beginning of a battle and only the location of the initial forces can be set by the designer) but without ammo battles of 30+ turns become a bad joke.

[Palantir]

I'll as this again here- is there anyway to move a designed "battle" map into an "operation" format? I put so much work into that large one that I'd rather not have to remake it if it can be moved some how.

[KG_Cloghaun]

The rolling battle window does seem to have it's merits though. My operation map is 2240x4000m. With the battle window, the attacker is unable to see the whole map and only what the naked eye could. It would not be realistic for an infantry man to see 4 km down the map and make out the details of a town. The battle window would prevent the attacker from formulating an over all strategy. He would have to adapt to the constant changes of the battle conditions.

Ofcourse, I'm not arguing, just throwing out my opinion for debate. I still have not made up my mind what I want to do.

I understand charts and lists better than paragraphs. Kraut, could you list the pro's and con's of having a Battale Window and not having one? Your advice has been very helpful.

@Palantir

I've tried to find a way to import a "battle" map into an new operation and I can't find a way.
I was however, able to copy my op cme file into my quick battle folder, launch scenario editor and load the file from the quick battle folder, and it became a battle. So, you can change an op to a battle, but I dont know about the other way around.

[Kraut]

The rolling battle window does seem to have it's merits though. My operation map is 2240x4000m. With the battle window, the attacker is unable to see the whole map and only what the naked eye could. It would not be realistic for an infantry man to see 4 km down the map and make out the details of a town. The battle window would prevent the attacker from formulating an over all strategy. He would have to adapt to the constant changes of the battle conditions.

Ofcourse, I'm not arguing, just throwing out my opinion for debate. I still have not made up my mind what I want to do.

I understand charts and lists better than paragraphs. Kraut, could you list the pro's and con's of having a Battale Window and not having one? Your advice has been very helpful.



Maps with a scrolling battle window do serve it's purpose of simulating a deep penetration but I have several difficulties with this design. In one operation I'm playing (first as axis attacker vs AI, now as soviet defender PBEM) I had the following strange situations. The basic Axis objective is to overcome some strong soviet defences and press deep into his hinterland.
The map was so huge that I was easily able to sneak a platoon past his lines (the defender has very strong static defences but only very light mobile forces to guard his flanks) and consequently the battle window jumped forward after almost every battle quite noticible. During battle 3/4 I even had setup-zones directly behind his bunker/barbwire/trench line and was able to push several platoons behind his bunkers to take the safely out from behind.
But even without using this cheap trick, the scrolling battle window slowly pushed his fortifications to my side and beginning battle 2 they were already outside his setup zone! So the AI wasn't able to deploy his freshly arrived reserves in the trenches alongside his bunkers but had to deploy them further back and than move them forward to finally reach the trenches.
Another annoying thing as the attacker was that new parts of the map that became visible often revealed a landscape totally unsuited for an advance. I for example broke through one flank with an entire company, only to discover that this flank will turn into a huge marsh. Now, my company was inside a 'blue' setupzone so I couldn't move them around or send reinforcements but only move them back to a friendly 'red' zone. In real live I might have no recon about enemy forces in this region but I almost certainly have maps showing me what to expect a few kilometers down the road. So the scenario designer should at least provide an overview map for both players so that they know whta to expect.
I hope to avoid a lot of this 'pressing past fortifications' by using a static map, but have to test it further to see how it plays once finished :)

[Palantir]

Great stuff gentlemen, I'm gald to see we're taking advantage of the new "designers forum." :)

Question for you: When you create a long map 2,000+m do you give INF their shown alotted "real" transports? I was going to have an "exit" battle but there a dozens on dozens of 1/2 tracks the motorized / armored INF Batt's comes with. Have you found that they just clod up the map? But if you don't include them the Inf can't make it to the exit in time (I know just shorten the map!) but I'd rather stay with the historical encounter.

How many formations is too much on a map?

[KG_Cloghaun]

Does anyone know why I have noticed when I open my operation to work on it, there are 2 files by the same name, but one is a cme file and the other is a cmf file?

When I try to load either one they are both listed as operations. Do I need them both or can I just keep one?

Thankyou.

@Palantir

Who knows how much is too much. It depends on the size map you are using. My map is 4000m X 2240m. I have roughly 14,500 points worth of units on the map and they fit very nicely.

By the way, I am positive now that you cannot move a map from a battle to an op.

[KG_Cloghaun]

Ok, I took the cmf file out of my scenario folder and put it to desktop. I then launched the editor, loaded my op, then saved and exited the game. I then look in my scenario folder and a new cmf file appeared. An exact duplicate in name and size.

I don't understand.

[KG_Cloghaun]

This is really starting to wear on my nerves.

Ok, so there is definetely a problem with these cme/cmf file differences.

I got so far yesterday with my map and when I finished I realized I had a cme and a cmf file for the same file name, "Kapitanokva". I decided not to touch either of them until today.

Today, I loaded the cmf file and worked a bit on the map. I saved my work under the cmf file. I reload the cmf file and my progress is there. I save again under cmf and exit. I load the cme of the same file name and todays work is not there. It prompts me to save before I leave under the cme and I hit yes. I reload the cmf file which has todays work and now the work has disappeared under cmf.

This cme/cmf crap is really causing a great deal of confusion. I'm afraid to do anymore work and end up doing one little thing wrong and losing all my work.

[Kraut]

I think cme are for battles and cmf for operation, try moving BOTH files to a backup folder and only copying the cmf back to the scenario folder. Now try again to load/save it... is a cme created again ?

And as a tipp: try saving your progress under a different filename every now and than, sometimes it's really good to be at least able to look at the old design, or in the case of a catastroph to continue work from there instead of having to redo everything .

[Kraut]

Oh, and as I just had a look at your HP: You should change your logo, it-'s called Kampfgruppe and not Kampfgrüppe :)

And as you seem to enjoy BF1942 and CoD... try Enemy Territory! Its better that these two combined ! download link (http://www.splashdamage.com/download.php?op=viewdownload&cid=7)

[KG_Cloghaun]

Thankyou again Kraut.

And thank's for the spelling tip. I'll have to give our clan webmaster a demerit, lol.

Our group plays all of those wargames, but I only play CM.