COCAT is now MOCAT!

[Double Deuce]

The old COCAT 2.2 has now been retired by me (except for use in the ongoing NATO vs WP Campaign) so I will start to close thise threads related to that version.

COCAT is being replaced by MOCAT. This is a rebuilt COCAT II with many new features and is much, much more stable than any previous versions. Some of you may be glad to hear it also has a built-in installer and uninstaller. It should also work on about any system out there except a MAC so the headaches some of you had getting the older versions up and running should be a thing of the past.

While this version is primarilly geared toward Modern Operations (using BLUEFOR and REDFOR sides instead of Axis and Allies for instance) and using NATO Military Unit Icons you should be aware that the icons and unit equipment are fully editable to reflect any game system.

This version also has a built in movement simulator which means you plot your unit's waypoints (with time stamps and speeds) and then once all units have been plotted you can click a button and watch the units creep along their waypoints all at the same time and at their assigned movement speeds.

As I am able to put together more information I will post it here.

ALL future Combat Campaigns will use this newer version.

NOTE: If any of you have any ideas of what theme to cover for the next Combat Campaign (which will use WinSPWW2) please know I may soon be asking for your input. ;)

I am also looking for ways to speed Combat Campaigns up. :nuts:

[jadpanther]

Hey Double D.

I was discussing a campaign idea with a colleage of mine. It was an eastern front battlem sometime in 43' engagement. Would this mocat system you are talking work in that time period? We were thinking a large campaign in the winWW2 format of a Panzer Corps taking on a Tank army........this would be a hypothetical battle based somewhere in the Ukraine. I have never had any success with your cocat systems on any of my machines so I am really looking forward to Mocat if it is all you are saying it is. Any suggestions you have are always invited.

Jad

I'm itching to get the 6th MRR into the fight in your ongoing campaign!!!!!

[Double Deuce]

It was an eastern front battlem sometime in 43' engagement. Would this mocat system you are talking work in that time period? We were thinking a large campaign in the winWW2 format of a Panzer Corps taking on a Tank army........this would be a hypothetical battle based somewhere in the Ukraine. I have never had any success with your cocat systems on any of my machines so I am really looking forward to Mocat if it is all you are saying it is. Any suggestions you have are always invited.It should work but this MOCAT is less editable then the one we are using especially as far as the maps are concerned.

[jadpanther]

DD,

Can the maps from MBT be used in winspww2?

jad

[Double Deuce]

Can the maps from MBT be used in winspww2?Yes, they will work with either version.

[Double Deuce]

A new MOCAT is just around the corner. I am currently testing the latest version and more information should be available soon.

IF you want to give it a run through for future Combat Campaign participation please post here.

[Skirmisher]

A new MOCAT is just around the corner. I am currently testing the latest version and more information should be available soon.




How much will this version slow down your next campaign? It drains the campaign, just like an orchestra with a rock band.

[John Osborne]

How much will this version slow down your next campaign? It drains the campaign, just like an orchestra with a rock band.
Explain on what you mean by "It drains the campaign"

JohnO

[Skirmisher]

Explain on what you mean by "It drains the campaign"

JohnO


Slows down the campaign.

The only way a combat campaign can be succesful is if it moves fast and results in ALOT of tactical combat that individual commanders need to resolve. The campaign system being created is more concerned with detail than tactical combat. When you over concern yourself with all these details,the campaign inevitably bogs down. This results in disinterest,and people leaving it. Thats not good. Case in point look at the NATO/warsaw pack campaign that remained stalled out for an incredible amount of time.

[John Osborne]

I agree on everything you just stated. However, I have seen allot of Campaigns where it grinds to a halt because it is either too large, to many players and not enough for them to do but just sit and wait to see if there will be a battle for his unit, rules are to complicated to understand, and there isn't never enough GMs to run it smoothly. What MOCAT is suppose to do is help with the planning of the battles not help run the campaigns. It is still up to the GM and players to get the most out of the helps they can get. It is still up to the GM to make sure he has everything ready to go instead of running to catch up because he wasn't complete ready to start a campaign.

What I have seen before I got involved in upgrading COCAT to MOCAT was that allot of the players didn't understand how it is suppose to be used. There wasn't a very good user guide on how to use it. That has change. I took the time to redo the User Guide with allot of pictures so that anybody could understand how to create a unit, how to assign them to a hierarchy, and so on. Is it the cure for running campaigns better, no, again that is still up to the players and GM on doing what they need to do to have fun as well as kick butt against your opponent because you had a better plan and able to get those plans to your commanders.

Will MOCAT be used? Thats up to DD and the players, I was just trying to help GMs and players enjoy playing a campaign.

Thats my two cents and will stop ranting and get back to work again :D

JohnO

[Double Deuce]

Slows down the campaign.

The only way a combat campaign can be succesful is if it moves fast and results in ALOT of tactical combat that individual commanders need to resolve. The campaign system being created is more concerned with detail than tactical combat. When you over concern yourself with all these details,the campaign inevitably bogs down. This results in disinterest,and people leaving it. Thats not good. Case in point look at the NATO/warsaw pack campaign that remained stalled out for an incredible amount of time.COCAT itself has not really been the problem with most campaigns not finishing. The Red Snow campaign was very big and was completed after about 2+ years using COCAT very effectively. I also had 3-4 players who worked on their stuff almost daily helping to keep things running. I also used it for the Island Civil War (for my tracking only).

Actually a big factor that makes it difficult is WinSP itself. You cannot create battles where units can retreat to the North or South and you cannot have units from the same team enter from opposite sides of the map (it screws up the retreat path so from one side they rout directly into the enemy - ask the WP team how many vehicles they lost because of that restriction :nervous: ). The CD version allows setting retreat hexes somewhat BUT not all players have the CD version and it is a fairly new feature.

Another "problem" is if players want to command certain units. In many cases they have to sit while the other players units are engaged, sometimes for months if not longer if the battles are big. If you go without dedicated commands people have to be coaxed into taking battles they don't really want to fight either because they don't like or are not familiar with those type forces.

There are many other factors that affect the campaign other than those mentioned above and one of the biggest is/was my ability as the only GM to manage the project (Artur knows what I am talking about :paperbag: ). About 2 years ago I had to take a night job and raise 2 small kids during the day so my hours were severely impacted. I was lucky to get 3-4 hours a week to dedicate to the campaign.

Then there are the forums. I no longer have admin rights here so all secure forum changes, players access, etc all have to go through the head honcho's here at GS who have to manually do all the changes, time permitting.

Ideally I think what really should happen is a small group of interested players come up with a campaign idea and then pitch in to help me build it. That way it covers a topic they are interested in and understand its a group project so they tend to be more involved. Something with the flexibility and size of the Island Civil War would be the best IMHO.

[Double Deuce]

To add to that. Another difficulty was trying to figure out movement paths, speeds, etc and trying to determine just what units encountered what units where on the OP Map. With over 200 units on the NATO/WP OP map this was a nightmare.

The newest MOCAT takes care of this through a nice little feature that plays like a movie and moves all units across the map simultaneously based on assigned speeds and movement start times from waypoint to waypoint. ;)

[Skirmisher]

Actually a big factor that makes it difficult is WinSP itself. You cannot create battles where units can retreat to the North or South and you cannot have units from the same team enter from opposite sides of the map (it screws up the retreat path so from one side they rout directly into the enemy - ask the WP team how many vehicles they lost because of that restriction :nervous: ). The CD version allows setting retreat hexes somewhat BUT not all players have the CD version and it is a fairly new feature.




What you say here illustrates that the two programs aren't realy compatible.
You and Mocat's creator are doing your best to make them compatible.

[Skirmisher]

There are many other factors that affect the campaign other than those mentioned above and one of the biggest is/was my ability as the only GM to manage the project (Artur knows what I am talking about :paperbag: ). About 2 years ago I had to take a night job and raise 2 small kids during the day so my hours were severely impacted. I was lucky to get 3-4 hours a week to dedicate to the campaign.

Then there are the forums. I no longer have admin rights here so all secure forum changes, players access, etc all have to go through the head honcho's here at GS who have to manually do all the changes, time permitting.




Real life certainly has a way of ruining even the best laid plans,the responsiblity for keeping the whole thing moving should never fall on just one persons shoulders.
People will have to make a real effort to coordinate things in the future. Most players I think are more casual campaigners and not willing to take on more responsiblity(they have enough of that in real life).

[Skirmisher]

Another "problem" is if players want to command certain units. In many cases they have to sit while the other players units are engaged, sometimes for months if not longer if the battles are big. If you go without dedicated commands people have to be coaxed into taking battles they don't really want to fight either because they don't like or are not familiar with those type forces.



Players need to be less selfish and be willing to sacrifice for the team.

[Skirmisher]

COCAT itself has not really been the problem with most campaigns not finishing. The Red Snow campaign was very big and was completed after about 2+ years using COCAT very effectively. I also had 3-4 players who worked on their stuff almost daily helping to keep things running. I also used it for the Island Civil War (for my tracking only).

Ideally I think what really should happen is a small group of interested players come up with a campaign idea and then pitch in to help me build it. That way it covers a topic they are interested in and understand its a group project so they tend to be more involved. Something with the flexibility and size of the Island Civil War would be the best IMHO.


This is a very good idea Double Deuce,seeing how it allready worked for you in the past. Most definetly such a small group of dedicated players could keep it all moving.
How were you able to deal with the retreating problem in "RED SNOW"?

[Skirmisher]

To add to that. Another difficulty was trying to figure out movement paths, speeds, etc and trying to determine just what units encountered what units where on the OP Map. With over 200 units on the NATO/WP OP map this was a nightmare.



The scope of that campaign was just to big,and it got out of control with the amount of people on each side. How many people in that campaign would you say fell into the active participant class?

[Skirmisher]

The newest MOCAT takes care of this through a nice little feature that plays like a movie and moves all units across the map simultaneously based on assigned speeds and movement start times from waypoint to waypoint. ;)


I guess I should probably wait and see how Mocat turns out before I cast it into the lake of fire.

[Double Deuce]

This is a very good idea Double Deuce,seeing how it allready worked for you in the past. Most definetly such a small group of dedicated players could keep it all moving.
How were you able to deal with the retreating problem in "RED SNOW"?We used SPWAWH2Hfr (which has VH Exit hexes AND allows for exiting off all 4 map edges, WinSP only allows exiting on the East/West edges). Also, most battles ended up being East-West without any pincer moves with forces coming from other map edges.

Without thinking I created NATO/WP to run from North-South, which just increased the retreat problems.

[Double Deuce]

What you say here illustrates that the two programs aren't realy compatible.
You and Mocat's creator are doing your best to make them compatible.Many people couldn't get the older COCAT to install and run, pretty much ruining participation at the operational level for them. It's hard to stay interested when you have no way to really follow the action (other than trying to create a mental picture using the text postings from the forums).

IF everyone can get MOCAT running it can be used for screenshots, enemy intel reporting and host of other things as files can be exchanged between players and between myself and the players. Players then get to follow along with nice pretty pictures where they can actually get a feel for how things stand.

Another thing, the old COCAT didn't have any real manual or tutorials so those that could get it running pretty much had to figure out how things worked on the their own. What is needed is for me to block out time to work up some "training exercises" using MOCAT where players have the chance to follow along step by step and learn what MOCAT can do and how to do it. Much of this could be done before any campaign really got underway and should keep those who want to participate actively involved. There are still things I don't know that MOCAT can do.

Fortunately we have a programmer who can manage to find a few minutes of his time here and there to tweak it for us by helping troubleshoot anything we come across and fix it is necessary.