View Full Version : How do you attack?
Nemesis Lead
24 Nov 06, 20:46
Assume you have 1 US infantry company with 3 infantry platoons and 1 infantry support platoon (3 mortars and 3 HMGs). You are also supported by 1 Sherman tank.
You are attacking on a flat map with moderate trees. You have 1 flag to take. Without knowing anything else about the map, what attack formation might you choose? What are the pros and cons of your approach?
I know the answer is "it depends" but which "movement to contact" style most closely matches your personal style?
KEY:
Infantry platoon = 0000
Support platoon = XXXX
Tank = ^
____= means nothing, just spaces stuff out.
1) 2 infantry platoons manuever towards the enemy. Overwatching them is 1 infantry platoon, the support platoon, and the tank. Total attack frontage is 450 meters (and it looks like this):
0000 0000 (MANUVER)
_______________________0000 XXXX ^ (OVERWATCH)
2) Columns of platoons with overwatch provided by the support platoon. The tank is held in reserve and committed only when it appears safe or when it is desperately needed. Total attack frontage is 150 meters:
0000 (MANUVER)
0000 (MANUVER)
0000 (MANUVER)
_________________ XXXX (OVERWATCH)
___________________^ (RESERVE)
3) On-line infantry platoons with a tank/support platoon that can move to support any one platoon (total attack frontage is 350 meters).
0000 0000 0000 (MANUVER)
_____________________________ XXXX ^ (OVERWATCH)
4) 1 infantry platoon attacks from either flank. 1 infantry platoon and 1 support platoon provide overwatch from the center. Tank is held in reserve. Total attack frontage is 500 meters.
0000___________________ 0000(MANUVER)
__________0000 XXXX (OVERWATCH)
_______________^ (RESERVE)
5) Infantry manuevers with 2 platoons forward and 1 back. Support platoon provide overwatch. Tank is held in reserve. Total attack frontage is 250 meters.
0000 0000 (MANUVER)
_____0000 (MANUVER)
____________________________XXXX (OVERWATCH)
____________________________^ (RESERVE)
6) Infantry manuevers with 2 platoons forward and 1 platoon back. Support platoon is broken up and allocated to the infantry platoons. Tank provides overwatch.
0000X 0000X(MANUVER)
0000XX(MANUVER)
____________________________^ (OVERWATCH)
7) Tank follows 30 meters behind the infantry and provides close fire support. Infantry provides all round security for the tank. Support unit broken up and allocated to infantry platoons. Total attack frontage is 350 meters.
_______0000XX (MANUVER/OVERWATCH)
0000X ^ 0000X (MANUVER/OVERWATCH)
8) Something else?
There is no right answer. This is just to stimulate a tactics discussion. I will share my thoughts late in the discussion.
Would you like this as a poll? You can do it also as a poll look at the bottom of when you post. There are options. Let me know I coud convert this into a poll if you wish.
I you wish a response in this form give me until Sundat night.
This is a good Idea.:smoke:
Assume you have 1 US infantry company with 3 infantry platoons and 1 infantry support platoon (3 mortars and 3 HMGs). You are also supported by 1 Sherman tank.
You are attacking on a flat map with moderate trees... My immediate reaction to reading this was what would you (NL) do, seeing that you are the resident AD champ?
I'm also a stickler for detail (quite annoying sometimes, I know:halo: ), so I'm assuming this flat map has a center VL that can be seen from the rear support positions? If that is the case then #6 and 7 are out, as I wouldn't want to risk the fragile mortars while bringing them to the front, particularly if they have good LOS from in back.
The tank in immediate overwatch is risky if you do not have certainty that it's overwatch window is clear of ATGs. In a game that small, losing the tank probably loses the game so #1 and 6 are out without that certainty.
Probably #8. It depends on the layout of the trees.
Nemesis Lead
24 Nov 06, 23:12
My immediate reaction to reading this was what would you (NL) do, seeing that you are the resident AD champ?
I'm also a stickler for detail (quite annoying sometimes, I know:halo: ), so I'm assuming this flat map has a center VL that can be seen from the rear support positions? If that is the case then #6 and 7 are out, as I wouldn't want to risk the fragile mortars while bringing them to the front, particularly if they have good LOS from in back.
The tank in immediate overwatch is risky if you do not have certainty that it's overwatch window is clear of ATGs. In a game that small, losing the tank probably loses the game so #1 and 6 are out without that certainty.
Probably #8. It depends on the layout of the trees.
Hey Lurker,
I will chime in at the end.
Assume you have to move forward 1000 meters or so before you can even see the flag. This is asking....what formation do you prefer to travel in and be in when you make contact with the enemy (and why)?
How would you do this?
Wayne--no need for a poll--the discussion is more important.
mangus2000
25 Nov 06, 06:06
For me #5 seems to fit quite well. I like to move forward till i hit something, assess the situation and if the troops need heavier support bring it up, I prefer the wider front that it gives than #4, more chance of spotting something.
I would also split one squad and have them moving ahead of the main force hoping to trip any ambushes that the oppo has set up and general scouting.
I prefer a smaller frontage something like:
0(lead 1/2 squad)
000(support when if i want to engage)
0000X(manuver/flank) 0000X(manuver/flank)
XXXXC(company hq able to provide support or release teams to aid flanking platoon)
<- ^ -> terrain would dictate the side but i like the armor far enough back to try to get LOS just ahead of the lead 1/2 squad yet make any AT weapon have to fire at long range or risk being found by the lead 1/2 squad.
All that being said, rarely do we get text book situations, but I don't like going in with too much up front and have had good success with the 1 up 2 back.
mangus2000
26 Nov 06, 18:38
Why ain't no one posting on this thread?
It's a good idea for a thread and i think we could all learn alot from it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So come on boys post away!!!!!!!!!
Ok,
I'd use #4 or #6
or... one of the other numbers! :p
I used to be more like #3 but found I was losing momentum as platoons came under fire with no depth to back them up.
Now I usually try to use #2 so that I can punch through the lines and explore the enemies rear areas.
Doodlebug
27 Nov 06, 03:00
Nice idea and thanks for starting the discussion.
For me number 2) or 8).
My 8) is possibly a variant of 2) with initially more overwatch and/or reserves ready to step up and provide covering fire or follow up the lead elements. I would rule out, given the open nature of the ground, a plan that moved the support platoon or tank without at least some certainty of an objective where they are going to setup next and operate from. That rules out 6) and 7) for me.
I would keep the frontage to a minimum and attempt to find a route that gets me closing on the enemy, using ground and cover to the maximum, and which follow up elements can use in relative safety.
Very, very keen to hear what Nemesis has to say on the subject to get the perspective from a really competent player (which I ain't)
Nemesis Lead
28 Nov 06, 18:16
IMHO, the best bet is a combination of number 2 and number 5. I once read a book that advocated attacking in column. I was very skeptical of this, but when I applied it to CM it worked!
So why attack in column?
1) You maximise the use of cover. There is often not enough cover on an axis of advance to safely move 2 platoons abreast. CM is all about cover. You have to minimize the amount of time you spend on open ground. If you have to move over open ground, the bad guys MUST be suppressed or your advance must be masked by terrain/smoke. Scouts always lead the advance as well since you cannot lose an entire infantry platoon!
2) With a 1 platoon frontage, you are "stealthier." The bad guys see one platoon and often don't realize that a huge force is following that platoon. The lead platoon often overruns OPs and blinds the bad guys to the "train" that is following them.
3) When you make contact, the first platoon returns fire and the second platoon manuevers to the flank. NOTE--the 2 platoons must NEVER be closer than 70 meters (side to side) or 120 meters (vertical) from one another. To get closer than this risks a good pounding by enemy artillery (more on this later).
4) If you face an opponent who likes mobile defense, he may try to attack your column from the side. It is easy to deploy from a column and handle flank attacks. If you are moving online, you can be flanked and rolled up!
5) Most importantly.....if your first platoon gets worn down (it will), the second platoon takes the lead. If the second platoon gets worn down, the third platoon will lead. Basically, the column ensures that you are able to crack an enemy defense. Once you break your enemy's MLR, the battle often becomes mobile and this favors the numerically superior attacker. Push to the back of the map and then roll him up! Force his AT Guns to shoot at your infantry! Kill his FOs as they huddle in their foxholes!
If you attack online, often your first platoon will get eaten up by the defender (who usually has equal numbers, better cover, and the advantage of surprise). If you do not have a second platoon following, then that attack has just failed. A lot of guys spread themselves all over a map and their attacks bog down when their leading platoons are halted. Concentrate your strength into columns that can punch through!
If your enemy likes to ambush you and then run away.......he will likely run out of real estate before your column runs out of men. If he does this, move 2 platoons online and use bounding overwatch. Upon contact, one platoon will pin down the ambushers and the other will manuever on and massacre them.
Combating Artillery
Again, the enemy must NEVER get a chance to shell 2 infantry platoons with one fire mission. By doing this, you take enemy artillery out of the game. Why? A defender must kill 1.5 times his number of attackers. If a German 81mm mortar FO costs 93 points and a 105mm FO costs 143 points, then they must kill/rout 145 points and 211 points worth of the enemy (respectively) to "pay" for themselves.
It is very rare that an 81mm FO or a 105mm FO will completely kill an infantry platoon even if they rain all of their shells down on them. Hence, artillery does not pay for itself UNLESS you offer your opponent multiple platoons. Don't do it!
Other principles
1) The third platoon in column will do "flank recon." They are there to make sure that you bypass no enemy OPs or (worse) infantry platoons. You must try to explore every bush, tree and rock on a 300 meter frontage! Leave nothing behind. The first and second platoons cannot really do this since they have to stay concentrated and find the enemy.
2) Armor is held in reserve. See if you can break the enemy infantry position and sack his AT Guns without ever exposing your armor! It can be done! Armor is best committed when you encounter enemy armor or when you have breached his MLR and/or disrupted his AT Gun Network.
3) Support weapons provide overwatch as best they can. Often, it is good to find a nice hill for a mortar position (always using a spotter!) with a good field of fire. DO NOT place your mortars and MGs together. If the MGs take artillery fire, your mortars will die with them. The idea is for mortars to fire without fear of being hit in return. Save your mortars for AT Guns (and armor never goes ANYWHERE not covered by mortars). If absolutely necessary, use mortars on enemy infantry.
4) Use a minimum of one infantry company per objective. Better to use 4 infantry platoons if you can.
5) Supporting attacks--it is often good to attack with multiple columnar spearheads. Why? If you attack with only one spearhead, the enemy can reposition his MLR to confront you (basically, the guys who are not being attacked stream over to confront you). Using two spearheads puts pressure on him at multiple points and prevents him from easily moving reserves/his MLR to confront you.
6) Be unpredictable. You CAN move over more open terrain provided you have smoke and lots of overwatch firepower. Think of smoke as "mobile cover."
IMHO, the best bet is a combination of number 2 and number 5. I once read a book that advocated attacking in column. I was very skeptical of this, but when I applied it to CM it worked!
So why attack in column?
1) You maximise the use of cover. There is often not enough cover on an axis of advance to safely move 2 platoons abreast. CM is all about cover. You have to minimize the amount of time you spend on open ground. If you have to move over open ground, the bad guys MUST be suppressed or your advance must be masked by terrain/smoke. Scouts always lead the advance as well since you cannot lose an entire infantry platoon!
2) With a 1 platoon frontage, you are "stealthier." The bad guys see one platoon and often don't realize that a huge force is following that platoon. The lead platoon often overruns OPs and blinds the bad guys to the "train" that is following them.
3) When you make contact, the first platoon returns fire and the second platoon manuevers to the flank. NOTE--the 2 platoons must NEVER be closer than 70 meters (side to side) or 120 meters (vertical) from one another. To get closer than this risks a good pounding by enemy artillery (more on this later).
4) If you face an opponent who likes mobile defense, he may try to attack your column from the side. It is easy to deploy from a column and handle flank attacks. If you are moving online, you can be flanked and rolled up!
5) Most importantly.....if your first platoon gets worn down (it will), the second platoon takes the lead. If the second platoon gets worn down, the third platoon will lead. Basically, the column ensures that you are able to crack an enemy defense. Once you break your enemy's MLR, the battle often becomes mobile and this favors the numerically superior attacker. Push to the back of the map and then roll him up! Force his AT Guns to shoot at your infantry! Kill his FOs as they huddle in their foxholes!
If you attack online, often your first platoon will get eaten up by the defender (who usually has equal numbers, better cover, and the advantage of surprise). If you do not have a second platoon following, then that attack has just failed. A lot of guys spread themselves all over a map and their attacks bog down when their leading platoons are halted. Concentrate your strength into columns that can punch through!
If your enemy likes to ambush you and then run away.......he will likely run out of real estate before your column runs out of men. If he does this, move 2 platoons online and use bounding overwatch. Upon contact, one platoon will pin down the ambushers and the other will manuever on and massacre them.
Combating Artillery
Again, the enemy must NEVER get a chance to shell 2 infantry platoons with one fire mission. By doing this, you take enemy artillery out of the game. Why? A defender must kill 1.5 times his number of attackers. If a German 81mm mortar FO costs 93 points and a 105mm FO costs 143 points, then they must kill/rout 145 points and 211 points worth of the enemy (respectively) to "pay" for themselves.
It is very rare that an 81mm FO or a 105mm FO will completely kill an infantry platoon even if they rain all of their shells down on them. Hence, artillery does not pay for itself UNLESS you offer your opponent multiple platoons. Don't do it!
Other principles
1) The third platoon in column will do "flank recon." They are there to make sure that you bypass no enemy OPs or (worse) infantry platoons. You must try to explore every bush, tree and rock on a 300 meter frontage! Leave nothing behind. The first and second platoons cannot really do this since they have to stay concentrated and find the enemy.
2) Armor is held in reserve. See if you can break the enemy infantry position and sack his AT Guns without ever exposing your armor! It can be done! Armor is best committed when you encounter enemy armor or when you have breached his MLR and/or disrupted his AT Gun Network.
3) Support weapons provide overwatch as best they can. Often, it is good to find a nice hill for a mortar position (always using a spotter!) with a good field of fire. DO NOT place your mortars and MGs together. If the MGs take artillery fire, your mortars will die with them. The idea is for mortars to fire without fear of being hit in return. Save your mortars for AT Guns (and armor never goes ANYWHERE not covered by mortars). If absolutely necessary, use mortars on enemy infantry.
4) Use a minimum of one infantry company per objective. Better to use 4 infantry platoons if you can.
5) Supporting attacks--it is often good to attack with multiple columnar spearheads. Why? If you attack with only one spearhead, the enemy can reposition his MLR to confront you (basically, the guys who are not being attacked stream over to confront you). Using two spearheads puts pressure on him at multiple points and prevents him from easily moving reserves/his MLR to confront you.
6) Be unpredictable. You CAN move over more open terrain provided you have smoke and lots of overwatch firepower. Think of smoke as "mobile cover."
You are a good captian , captain. I have changed my way of attacking and it has helped my recent victories prove it.;) :smoke:
I'm sure it's great being the winner in most battles you undertake. It's even greater that you share what works with the rest of us mortals.:laugh:
It's certainly a good framework to structure your attacks. It's the reaction to contact, suppression, and flanking that is easy to understand but difficult to execute depending upon additional enemy forces, terrain/cover. Practice, practice, practice.
Thanks again!!
Bertram
1st year PONL University Student
OK BRO SAP, finish that long awaited setup and prepare to defend:devious: :devious: :devious: !!
Very nice work Jay!
Thanks for the tactical info, its great to have players sharing their experiences to help out everyone else. :)
PS- Wayne why did you "quote" Jays entire post? :p
PS- Wayne why did you "quote" Jays entire post? :p
Kerry why are you invisable?:monkey: :mr t: :dance: :skip: :2623: :bf_rasta: :feedback: :bananapelada: :banana-wave: :flammable: :smoke:
Where's the next round?????? I didn't even make you take the Italians again!
Where's the next round?????? I didn't even make you take the Italians again!
I am starting to understand why you yanks can't win a war. You can't even get your e-mail right.:monkey: :smoke:
Amazing what happens when you send it as requested:laugh:
Amazing what happens when you send it as requested:laugh:
you have more e-mail addresses then a millapede has legs.:bananapelada:
IMHO, the best bet is a combination of number 2 and number 5. I once read a book that advocated attacking in column. I was very skeptical of this, but when I applied it to CM it worked!
So why attack in column? ... Good post NL. Thanks for sharing your secrets. :)
I have a question though, on meeting resistance and it's handling. If the lead plt meets up with equal force then it's a stand off. With the mtrs in the rear over-watching for ATGs there would be no HE support to punch through this resistance and it may be too dangerous to bring up a tank. Doesn't this mean violating the 70 mtrs in-line rule? A second plt would have to move forward to help out and then you have the OBA danger of hammering 2 plts. If the 2nd remains 70 off to the side it may be relatively ineffective at that range and there is no certainty it could flank the resistance. It may run into it's own problems, such as more resistance or over-exposure. I'm sure you've run into that so I'm curious how it's brought about.
I'd also like to hear your D philosophy.
Nemesis Lead
03 Dec 06, 14:01
Hey Lurker,
Mortars are great infantry killers! You just have to be sure and save some for ATGs.
The "never put 2 platoons in an infantry impact zone" is a hard rule. It renders enemy artillery "cost-ineffective" You can:
1) Find cover that is more than 70 meters away.
2) Use smoke to get your men to that cover.
3) Use MGs to suppress.
4) Slowly move the second platoon into place (one squad at a time with the others putting down suppressive fire).
5) IF (and only if) it feels safe, your tank can come up to engage.
6) If you have multiple columns.....another column can come up and flank the resistance that you are facing.
7) If things are really bad, you can back out and try a different route.
The other thing I would say is.....this is a very simple example. I might have the following support:
1) Artillery.
2) Armored cars.
3) Guns.
4) Mortar FOs firing smoke.
Finally, this type of situation can often be avoided by choosing the right route and planning your overwatching fires correctly. You can often easily see chokepoints and avoid them. Hell, I sometimes choose less obvious routes because your opponents assume that you would never move over the open!
Why don't you post your defensive philosophy? :devious:
Why don't you post your defensive philosophy? :devious:Me, defensive philosophy? I have none!:halo:
7) If things are really bad, you can back out and try a different route.
I guess that answers my question. I was looking at the situation where the second plt couldn't flank and that more than 70 mtrs isn't going to be all that effective. Plus the 2nd plt might run into it's own problems off to the side and therefore not be able to lend any support to the main group.
Nemesis Lead
03 Dec 06, 19:26
Me, defensive philosophy? I have none!:halo:
Why I am not surprised you would say that? :rolleyes:
With a 30 some game winning streak, I would have thought you would have something meaningful to add. ;)
My momma always told me......In the world there are two types of people....Givers and Takers. :laugh:
With a 30 some game winning streak, I would have thought you would have something meaningful to add. ;)
But I did! I asked questions, which added further...er...insight! :whist: :cheeky:
When you start a similar D post maybe I'll have something more meaningful to say.:clown: But then again, my main A/D experience came in ASL. ;)
vBulletin® v3.7.0, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.