150mm Vs Armour

[mangus2000]

Just out of interest does anyone know if a direct fire 150mm HE round is gonna knock out a Sherman?
Now i would have thought that 150mm HE would damage or knock out just about any CM vehicle, but when you set the target it says "Kill, None". You should atleast get a bailout due to deafening the enemy:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[The Hooded One]

Don't know about Shermans, but I've knocked out Matildas with 150mm HE rounds, and they're pretty thick-skinned fellows....

Hmm, wish I had a couple of 150mm guns in our current game :cry: :eek: :devious:

[Nemesis Lead]

I have noticed that armor slope means ALOT with 150mm HE.

My thought is....if you hit the Sherman in the turrent (flat armor) you are going to kill it.

If you hit him on the hull where the armor is sloped......things will be iffy.

Of course, this would be very easy for you to playtest....:laugh:

[mangus2000]

Of course, this would be very easy for you to playtest....:laugh:
I did, but i need to keep the forum on the move aswell. So i tend to throw these questions out to everyone else first:cool:

What i found was that you could get a shock but i didn't get any kills, it was only a quick test though!

[Lurker]

I did, but i need to keep the forum on the move aswell. So i tend to throw these questions out to everyone else first:cool:

What i found was that you could get a shock but i didn't get any kills, it was only a quick test though!I'm not sure that large caliber HE hits on armor is accurately modeled. A 150 HC round would do the trick, but it seems that HE should also do a lot of damage...more than in CM. I've read where tankers talked about large HE rounds going off nearby would shake them up quite a bit, so a direct hit might be able to panic the crew - in RL anyway. :)

[KGPanzerschrecK]

IMHO the game doesnt model high caliber HE round hits on armor very well. I have read too many first person accounts of what these large caliber weapons could do to the unfortunate souls inside a tank or a pillbox. The blasts concussion sucks the air out of their lungs and scrambles the mind to say the least. :nuts:

[Mad Russian]

Just out of interest does anyone know if a direct fire 150mm HE round is gonna knock out a Sherman?
Now i would have thought that 150mm HE would damage or knock out just about any CM vehicle, but when you set the target it says "Kill, None". You should atleast get a bailout due to deafening the enemy:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

When I go against tanks with large caliber HE(105mm+) I go for their guns. I do an area fire right in front of the tank and get a disabling gun hit about 80% of the time on the first shot. The bigger the HE round the bigger the chance of a gun disabled result. Once that gun is no longer shooting I can stop worrying about what they do and move on to the next piece of the puzzle.

I know this isn't exactly what you are talking about, but for me at least, a gun damaged tank is a dead tank and I move on.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Palantir]

Ok...
The short answer is yes, the long answer is no.

Vs the Shermans frontal armor: tank vs tank
A 150mm/L30 HE round will kill a Sherman (89 or 102mm) at ranges of 800m.
A 150mm/L12 HE round won't kill one at 300m (89 or 102 mm).

As mentioned above throw in a 150mm HC round & they will knock off any Sherman at ranges of 800m+

However, the odds are the faster shooting Sherman will get a gun hit/lower armor hit/ or immobilize the 150mm nearly everytime panicking the Axis crew.


PS. Panthers are notorious for getting gun hit damage which is one reason I'll take a Tiger over a Panther (but lets not get into that issue again).

[Lurker]

When I go against tanks with large caliber HE(105mm+) I go for their guns. I do an area fire right in front of the tank and get a disabling gun hit about 80% of the time on the first shot. The bigger the HE round the bigger the chance of a gun disabled result. Interesting bit of information. I'll have to try that.

[Palantir]

I do an area fire right in front of the tank and get a disabling gun hit about 80% of the time on the first shot.

I have seen this happen, but nothing close to 80% maybe 10%.

But there you go!

[Mad Russian]

I have seen this happen, but nothing close to 80% maybe 10%.

But there you go!


I have never done tests on the exact numbers...I guess I should...

What I know is that it works so often and so well that I use it as a normal tactic during combat. If it didn't work I wouldn't use it every chance I get!

Another thing I had happen ONCE with HE chunkers....A Panther was sitting behind a large building so I rubbled the building and it made the crew abandon the Panther! I have only had that happen once though and have tried it every chance I get since that first time! More out of curiosity than to get an actual kill.

The whole idea, for rubbling the building in the first place, is the the LOS/LOF block that the dust gives you! Instant smoke screen, whether or not, you have any smoke available to you! I was amazed, that it not only blocked the Panther's vision, but killed it too!

Good Hunting.

MR

[Redwolf]

I played HSG EW Objective Berlin AI lately (awesome scenario BTW).

Yes, Shermans blow up real good when hit by 150mm.

[mangus2000]

I played HSG EW Objective Berlin AI lately (awesome scenario BTW).

Yes, Shermans blow up real good when hit by 150mm.

But the thing is! if it's HC they go down like flys. HE is a different matter!

[Mad Russian]

I played HSG EW Objective Berlin AI lately (awesome scenario BTW).

Yes, Shermans blow up real good when hit by 150mm.


LOL!!!! Well don't tell Nemesis Lead that you liked a vs the AI scenario!!! :eek:

Thanks! I'm glad that you liked it! That's an example of my being too hard headed to give up on a scenario. I've worked on that scenario since the CMBO days when I first got it...about 3 years ago. Couldn't make it do what I wanted with the AI. Then I transferred it over to CMAK and kept at it! Now FINALLY the AI will fight you in this one!

Actually, for me at least, I don't seem to have too much trouble getting the AI to fight like I want it to these days....it's these danged QB battles against NL that get me in trouble!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock:

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

But the thing is! if it's HC they go down like flys. HE is a different matter!

That scenario has two vehicles armed with 150mm guns, one of them has HC rounds, while the other one doesn't. Hard to tell who killed the Shermans he's tallking about.

Time for a test I think....I'll be back in a bit...

Good Hunting.

MR

[Palantir]

I would not take a 150mm with only HE vs a Sherman (etc) unless in a side ambush or it was a 150/L30. The ROF is so slow you'll get killed unless you hit on the first round. (Hummels have weak armor) But give them HC and the Shermans are in for a world of hurt!

In tests using the Brumbar (HE only) the Shermans had an excellent kill ratio, about 10:1 using 76 or 75mm vs it's frontal armor. It's amazing the # of lower hull hits the Shermans got on them. That and once you immobilize a Brumbar the crews will bail after a few more ricochets.

BTW- it's quite a sight watching a 150mm shell being lobbed 900m, takes forever to get there & looks like a barrel flying through the air.

[Mad Russian]

But the thing is! if it's HC they go down like flys. HE is a different matter!


Ok...took 6 Sherman Easy Eights vs 6 Brumbars!

Both sides stuck in the terrain so no moving, reversing or showing your vulnerable sides....all on front armour.

CMAK shows no chance for a kill.

After three shots from each Brumbar; I Sherman crew was Immobilized and were Bailing out. 1 had the gun damaged and the crew was Panicked. 1 was Cautious and 3 were Alerted.

So, the answer is yes...if given enough time...which you would rarely get on a Sherman that is alive and well...you could actually kill one from front armour. However, it appears that the "kill" would come from cumulative crew issues...tank immobilized, gun disabled, etc...and then the crew bails. It does not appear that a normal shot from a 150mm HE will penetrate a Sherman's amour plate. Of course a hit on a weak spot will kill anything and I don't count those.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

I would not take a 150mm with only HE vs a Sherman (etc) unless in a side ambush or it was a 150/L30. The ROF is so slow you'll get killed unless you hit on the first round. (Hummels have weak armor) But give them HC and the Shermans are in for a world of hurt!

In tests using the Brumbar (HE only) the Shermans had an excellent kill ratio, about 10:1 using 76 or 75mm vs it's frontal armor. It's amazing the # of lower hull hits the Shermans got on them. That and once you immobilize a Brumbar the crews will bail after a few more ricochets.

BTW- it's quite a sight watching a 150mm shell being lobbed 900m, takes forever to get there & looks like a barrel flying through the air.

My test had the Shermans with no ammo loads...taking place at 756 meters.

The repeat of the test only firing in front of the tank gave me 5 out of 6 Shermans gun damaged, with only one shell, when the shell hit in front of the tank.

Where yours and my experiences may vary, is that, often times, at any range the first shell won't hit right in front of the tank, so, it takes longer to take out the gun. Usually, I use this tactic in a keyhole, or blind shot, if I can and as close as I can get to him. So, it works very reliably for me. At longer distances I'll have to rethink that tactic, now that I see how hard it is to place the shell where I want it...it still does the gun damage, but the first round more than likely won't hit where you want it to! Then you have a mad Sherman on your hands!!

Good Hunting.

MR

[Palantir]

Hmmm,
In those same test Bru's vs Shermans I had a lot of "misses" 150mm HE impacts, in front, along side and non-penetrating frontal hits but only 1 gun damage result.

Nevertheless they do show that you can not kill a Sherman outright frontally with 150mm HE rounds (minus the 150/L30).

But I will run a few tests later "area firing" in front of the M4's instead of at them: which is crazy way when you think about it- to damage it with a huge 150mm shell don't hit it!

[Mad Russian]

Hmmm,
In those same test Bru's vs Shermans I had a lot of "misses" 150mm HE impacts, in front, along side and non-penetrating frontal hits but only 1 gun damage result.

Nevertheless they do show that you can not kill a Sherman outright frontally with 150mm HE rounds (minus the 150/L30).

But I will run a few tests later "area firing" in front of the M4's instead of at them: which is crazy way when you think about it- to damage it with a huge 150mm shell don't hit it!

I'm thiinking I'm going to run some more tests too! But this time I want the 150mm gun within 200 meters. I can't see where a Sherman would sit still out there at long range while the 150mm finally lands where you want it!

Good Hunting.

MR

[Palantir]

I can't see where a Sherman would sit still out there at long range while the 150mm finally lands where you want it!
No, he'd just run up blasting away at an angle while the 150mm was reloading & kill it! :freak:

[Mad Russian]

No, he'd just run up blasting away at an angle while the 150mm was reloading & kill it! :freak:


Or if he had LOS/LOF he wouldn't ever have to even move to kill him!

Good Hunting.

MR

[TacCovert4]

I've found that the Brit 25 pounder is an absolute joy in armor reduction. :devious:

With good crews, you have a decent chance of a first shot hit, an this is almost invariably a kill on any tank short of a Panther.

[Lurker]

I've found that the Brit 25 pounder is an absolute joy in armor reduction. :devious:

With good crews, you have a decent chance of a first shot hit, an this is almost invariably a kill on any tank short of a Panther.The Panther's turret shouldn't stop it.

I think the Allies best ATG is the 6 pounder. It's cheap and can kill anything below heavy.

[Poor Old Spike]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/CM-150IGA.jpg



http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/CM-150IGB.jpg



http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/CM-150C.jpg

[Lurker]

Excellent post and quite enlightening. Seeing is believing! I'll be sure to use that information in my games. :) :thumup:

[Poor Old Spike]

150mm
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub1/grossd.jpg

[KG_AirborneBob]

Very enlightening....thanx for the vital info..:devious:

[Poor Old Spike]

The Germans also mounted the 150mm gun on tracks and called it the SiG 1B
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub1/sig1b.jpg

[Nemesis Lead]

Good show Spike, but try your experiment against tanks that do not have sloped armor.

You will get far more dead tanks.

The slope of armor really helps vs HE and HC.