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piero1971
21 Oct 06, 18:26
I just finishing a very interesting book "Tobruk 1940" on the accidental death of the Commander in Chief of Italian forces in Libya, Air Marshall Italo Balbo in July 1940 (shot down by mistake by italian AA fire while landing on TObruk airfield). Balbo, who was a sort of hero of the 1920's and especially of the 1930's by carrying air cruises all over the world, he was an aviation visionnaire and generally considered a great motivator of men and was well respected by his adversaries. after his death, the commander of the RAF in Egypt sent condoleances for him.. a rare occurance in war.
Balbo, considered Fascism n-2 after Mussolini by most italians, was also notoriously agaisnt Italy's alliance with Germany (something that the silly Anthony Eden incompetently pushed for... as Italy was strongly anti-Nazi until 1935...) and very vocal against the new 1939 racial laws, to the point of hiring into his staff many italian jews, who were very loyal to Italy anyway...

after his death, he was replaced by one of the most cowardly generals in the history of Italy (which says a lot), Gen Graziani. who quickly set his HQ to Tripoli.... and mismanaged Italian offensive into Egypt turning it into a rout where 300'000 italians could not beat 50'000 british and almost lost Libya if not for Rommel's intervention in early 1941... thus starting the Afrika Korps legend... (Graziani was replaced by Bastico, and ended up later in 1943, running sadistic anti-guerilla operations for the RSI)

the book, also explains the Air Marshall's plans for conducting war in North Africa, despite Italy's lack of equipment and supplies.
He planned for reusing captured British equipment, vehicles and supplies, and running major air-ground support operations as well as deep air raids on British forces with the Italian Royal Air Force, which he knew inside out, for having almost created the one that was available then.
He planned the creation of light motorized desert recon companies with captured british and french armoured cars and special forces groups, like the British SAS, to raid into Egypt, and planned for operational use of Italy's parachute batallions then in Lybia (instead they were used and lost as foot infantry)
he also had plans and contacts to mount a rebellion of Egypt against the British.
most importantly, contarily to the incompetent Italian military command of the times, who was very old style in his way of leading men and very keen on status, rather than efficency, Balbo did have a style of going into 1st line units, leading assaults with the troops, much like Rommel did. while dangerous, it may prove to make a difference..

the first what if, is, what if he was not killed in July. His leadership was very good and his ideas much more daring... could he have succeeded in the italian invasion of Egypt in 1940?


would this be in intersting scen to do- perhaps a modified of another existing one with extra italian proficiency (a bit) and a few extra units - perhaps as an option?



another interesting what if, based on some correspondence between balbo, and the Duke of Aosta, was that Balbo and Aosta thought that Italy's entry in war was both a folly and on the wrong side. Both saw the real enemy of Italy and of the western covilisation in Communism and not France and Britain. They also disliked the racial policies and the ambition of Nazi Germany.
they considered the idea of placing Lybia and Italian East-Africa as a "Free Italy", a bit like De Gaulle and "Free France" and join the British's struggle.
Eventually they considered that while the "right" thing, it would still be treason and went for the sad and oh so often used "my country, right or wrong".....

how would ww2 look like in this case... the allied suddenly with half-a-million italian troops in 1940.... and not needing to fight in Africa...?

that would interesting to play out in an existing scen.

Secadegas
22 Oct 06, 05:36
Interesting ideas, no doubt.

This remembers something i read sometime ago about a what if theory stating that italian neutrality during the war (resulting from Ciano and other anti-german fascists reaching the power after Mussolini death on an acident... :nuts: ) resulted on a much sooner Barbarossa (April/May 41) since the Balkans campaign wouldn't have taken place.
With the Wehrmacht taking Moscow before the winter and the incapacity of the british to deploy anywhere to help them soviet leaders sue for peace.
In this circunstances Japan opted by their northern expansion plan profiting from the soviet weakness. Without the attacks against Pearl Harbour and Philipines US would remain neutral and Britain wouldn't have other chance than to ask for a negociated peace with undefeated Germany.

Well, just another what if theory... :rolleyes:

Ben Turner
22 Oct 06, 19:16
(something that the silly Anthony Eden incompetently pushed for... as Italy was strongly anti-Nazi until 1935...)

I suppose we were supposed to watch Italy devour Abyssinia without comment?

Anyway, sounds like another "Italians were great soldiers really but..." book. I really don't find this kind of thing interesting. Since you're actually Swiss, can't you console yourself with that nation's rather fine martial track record?

another interesting what if, based on some correspondence between balbo, and the Duke of Aosta, was that Balbo and Aosta thought that Italy's entry in war was both a folly and on the wrong side. Both saw the real enemy of Italy and of the western covilisation in Communism and not France and Britain. They also disliked the racial policies and the ambition of Nazi Germany.
they considered the idea of placing Lybia and Italian East-Africa as a "Free Italy", a bit like De Gaulle and "Free France" and join the British's struggle.

This is more interesting- but I don't see how declaring against Nazi Germany advances the cause of anti-communism; probably why the scheme was dropped. Also I suspect a lot of units would opt to remain loyal to Rome and, supported by the Germans (perhaps through ports in Tunisia) present a front against the Allies somewhere in North Africa regardless, producing the same historical Allied challenges of building up the logistical power to overcome Rommel (or whoever).

Should Africa somehow be entirely redeemed for the Allies, this obviously would produce serious consequences for Germany. Not then being able to trust the Italians, they would have to garrison the whole south coast of Europe. Meanwhile Bolero would have the full attention of the Allies, and a Second Front in Europe would probably come in 1943, either in Italy in the Spring or France in the (late?) summer. Russia obviously would benefit from the diversion of ten or twenty German divisions away from the front, though this would be a one time loss and the logistical and attritional problems would not be any worse for Germany until 1943.

piero1971
23 Oct 06, 10:41
oh, no doubt, Italy staying neutral would mean clearly germany winning ww2.

re. Eden, yes, if it was not about his personal dislike of pleabean mussolini (like England cared about Abyssinia...) he would not have lobbied for sanctions against Italy and - as was agreed in Stresa, Italy would have kept in the anti-german front..



as for the book, it is not a book like that... but raises some interesting questions about morale. it does, as usual, and correctly criticize italian high officer's behaviour.

Ben Turner
24 Oct 06, 17:22
re. Eden, yes, if it was not about his personal dislike of pleabean mussolini (like England cared about Abyssinia...) he would not have lobbied for sanctions against Italy and - as was agreed in Stresa, Italy would have kept in the anti-german front..

I don't think Eden was singlehandedly responsible for Anglo-French policy toward Italy.

piero1971
24 Oct 06, 18:17
it seems Eden's visceral hate for mussolini came when, once in rome in 1934, he stepped in Mussolini's office in Palazo Venezia, tall and rigid and proud as he was, despising this plebean macho uniformed doctator (Mussolini used to bonk his many mistresses and visitress on his office table during "lunch break" etc.), and stepped on the carpet and fell flat faced on the floor, just in front of Mussolini, who laughed out loud... an humiliating moment for any englishman, especially one with traditional education... :D :D

that's a documented incident... one can suppose that might have started one more vector on the road to war...

oh well....

Bob Cross
25 Oct 06, 12:00
Anything would be an improvement over Graziani. But you would still have the problem that the Italians were very short on trucks. This not only meant that most of them were on foot (a severe tactical disadvantage against the motorized Commonwealth) but also put them on a very short logistical leash.

But, if done right, might be interesting.

Ben Turner
27 Oct 06, 20:35
But you would still have the problem that the Italians were very short on trucks. This not only meant that most of them were on foot (a severe tactical disadvantage against the motorized Commonwealth)

The Italians- at the start of the war at least- still had more motorised forces than did the British forces in Egypt. Then they had all this infantry as well.