AATF DENO (Take LZ mission)

[meade95]

Just wondering - How are others AAR going -

How many (if any) U.S. Fire Teams are you losing? Blackhawks?, AH-64Ds?, Etc. (prior to taking the LZ)


Also what is the exact trick - It seems at times Blackhawks will not pick-up units (yet at other times they will? - These units being in the same location).

[meade95]

Also - Regarding differing elevations on the maps - Is there an easy way to see at exactly what heights locations are on the map?

Additionally when it comes to dropping guys off.....Again at times one can and at others one can't (I suspect it is do to terrian) - However it seems there isn't a simply way to judge if a location is availiable to unload troops. (or perhaps I"m missing something).

[Hub]

Lift helos will only pick up (and devs can jump in if I'm wrong) if:

- they have available capacity for the dismounts in question

- the dismounts are in range to be picked up (range defined by a circle around the lift helo(s))

- both lift helos and dismounts must be in clear terrain

I've played the scenario about a dozen times, trying various things, mostly to see how things work in the game engine (not necessarily always tactically sound). A coup-de-main directly onto the airfield will definitely get you harmed...The best I've done to date was securing the objective with losses to only two fireteams, but I was also 65 minutes behind schedule. You don't have a lot of arty ammo available, and you must ration it carefully. Using smoke is not an option as you have to contend with a steady breeze blowing from west to east. I took the southern and north-western BP's with infantry assaults, the third was reduced with the two Apaches and artillery, as were the technicals. Assaulting known enemy using a platoon vee formation works well if you can centre the bad guys between the two arms of the vee. I used this with another platoon firing in support from yet a third direction - the volume of fire was such that suppression was almost total and the positions were overrun. It takes a long time and a certain amount of space to get your formations shaken out and on the move - you have to be careful not to wind up doing this too close to the enemy positions, otherwise you could find some of your people with their arses hanging in the wind...these are all good things, just what I was hoping for.

Although there are contour lines on the map, the only way to effectively judge what blocks what on this particular map is to use the LOS tool generously - I am hoping the devs will put the mouse over elevation/UTM coords back in the status bar as was SOP for the other games in the series.

[meade95]

Lift helos will only pick up (and devs can jump in if I'm wrong) if:

- they have available capacity for the dismounts in question

- the dismounts are in range to be picked up (range defined by a circle around the lift helo(s))

- both lift helos and dismounts must be in clear terrain

I've played the scenario about a dozen times, trying various things, mostly to see how things work in the game engine (not necessarily always tactically sound). A coup-de-main directly onto the airfield will definitely get you harmed...The best I've done to date was securing the objective with losses to only two fireteams, but I was also 65 minutes behind schedule. You don't have a lot of arty ammo available, and you must ration it carefully. Using smoke is not an option as you have to contend with a steady breeze blowing from west to east. I took the southern and north-western BP's with infantry assaults, the third was reduced with the two Apaches and artillery, as were the technicals. Assaulting known enemy using a platoon vee formation works well if you can centre the bad guys between the two arms of the vee. I used this with another platoon firing in support from yet a third direction - the volume of fire was such that suppression was almost total and the positions were overrun. It takes a long time and a certain amount of space to get your formations shaken out and on the move - you have to be careful not to wind up doing this too close to the enemy positions, otherwise you could find some of your people with their arses hanging in the wind...these are all good things, just what I was hoping for.

Although there are contour lines on the map, the only way to effectively judge what blocks what on this particular map is to use the LOS tool generously - I am hoping the devs will put the mouse over elevation/UTM coords back in the status bar as was SOP for the other games in the series.


All your points on Helo's picking up - I completely agree with - Though it still seems Iffy at times on which units will be picked up and which aren't (though I know the FOG of war plays a role here).

Regarding the LOS - This is one feature I haven't figured out quite yet - I'm looking forward to the manual to see how this works in total.

I just finished a run on the taking the LZ - Where I finished taking the LZ in very quick order (well under the time limit) - I lost 2 fire teams and 1 black hawk and 1 AH-64D.

Those losses seem slightly high - So I'll be play testing again -

Also - Do we know - We it says we lost a U.S Fire Team - Is that to mean all men are dead? or just incapacitated?

[Pat Proctor]

Mead,

Thanks for the comments/questions. Just so you know, just about everything you have highlighted has been policed up for the final release. Dismounts are easier to grab and dismount and elevation has been added to the tooltips when you hover over terrain. This is just the tip of the tweeks based on comments here and in the BETA test.

As for tactics, recon with your attack aviation platoon, a route along a road or some other concealed route. When you get to the LZ, use attack aviation and artillery to clear it for a landing. Then move your helo platoons, with dismounts to the corners of the LZ. Use fire and maneuver (suppressing as you move) to attack the positions (which face away from the airstrip, prepared for a ground assault).

[JamesBailey]

I wanted to do an AAR, but couldn't master the PRINT SCREEN prolbems encountered with the demo.

In one mission, I took LZ EASTWOOD without 1 American casualty. How? Using the AH-64D as an anti-infantry weapon (as in this thread: http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45863 ).

When not abusing the bad *ss 64D airframe, I air assault the airstrip like this:

(NORTH)
1st Plt <smoke> ENEMY PLT
----------------2nd Plt (in draw)
--------3rd Plt (on airstrip)

ENEMY PLT
------------ENEMY PLT
(SOUTH)

1st lands under cover of smoke, 2nd Plt lands in the natural draw. These two plts have enemy plt's rear in a natural "L" KZ - and quickly destroy the enemy using these overlapping fires. 3rd Plt covers the flank.

1st and 2nd plt then manuever around 3rd plt to face the two enemy plts in on SOUTH and EAST end of LZ.

[JamesBailey]

Thanks for the comments/questions. Just so you know, just about everything you have highlighted has been policed up for the final release. Dismounts are easier to grab and dismount and elevation has been added to the tooltips when you hover over terrain. This is just the tip of the tweeks based on comments here and in the BETA test.



Pat-
you guys are developing one heck of a great product (I love the fact this thing is going to ship with a 'Nam scenario set AND 'Ghan scenario set -- where else could you get something like that?!?! :laugh:) Moreover you guys are doubly great because you actually listen to what your customers are saying! I hope AATF has great financial success in the market place!

[meade95]

Pat-
you guys are developing one heck of a great product (I love the fact this thing is going to ship with a 'Nam scenario set AND 'Ghan scenario set -- where else could you get something like that?!?! :laugh:) Moreover you guys are doubly great because you actually listen to what your customers are saying! I hope AATF has great financial success in the market place!

Agree completely! -

(and James thanks for your AAR on taking the LZ)

[meade95]

Some additional thoughts / observations -

After playing the assault on the small town (Shugart-Gordon).

THe amount of forces in a small area really demands either another level of "zoom"....or some other way of making the battle field more clear.

I had 5 helo's in one area (and couldn't decipher between any of them) - Ditto that *plus* when it came to trying to get my Fire Teams, MG Teams, ATGM Teams sorted out - Simply mass confusion.

I really like the concept of AATF (in that it can allow a tactical side to small engagements....within a larger force)......yet things seem to get clouded up quickly at times...and it becomes quite hard to organize one's units....and plans for these units.

[CPangracs]

Some additional thoughts / observations -

After playing the assault on the small town (Shugart-Gordon).

THe amount of forces in a small area really demands either another level of "zoom"....or some other way of making the battle field more clear.

I had 5 helo's in one area (and couldn't decipher between any of them) - Ditto that *plus* when it came to trying to get my Fire Teams, MG Teams, ATGM Teams sorted out - Simply mass confusion.

I really like the concept of AATF (in that it can allow a tactical side to small engagements....within a larger force)......yet things seem to get clouded up quickly at times...and it becomes quite hard to organize one's units....and plans for these units.

Without sounding flip,...welcome to combat. Seriously - it gets confusing as hell sometimes and, as a commander, often all you can do is set your plan in motion and let your lower-level leaders and the soldiers fight the battle.

Remember a few things, and it will help you lead your troops:

1) Use the pause function to regain situational awareness when things get overwhelming - this is something real commanders don't have available to them in combat, so use it to your advantage.

2) When forces get co-mingled, use the "tool tips" feature and hover your cursor over the unit to get the name. I'm of the mind that, even with a '+' symbol, it will get hidden, either on the NATO symbol or on the piece itself.

3) Pat has been toying with another zoom level, but keep in mind that, as soon as you zoom into one firefight, you will quickly lose situational awarenes on every other unit in the fight that's not on your screen. This form of "tunnelvision" is VERY common among wargamers AND commanders on the battlefield that use battle command systems to fight the battle instead of watching the overal plan develop and manuevering the force as a whole.

Now, these are just suggestions, and are not designed to invalidate or lessen the importance of your observations - I would just like you to get a better understanding of the difficulties of being a commander on a "digital" battlefield and the balance game designers must strike.

Hope the tips help, and know that every single suggestion the community makes is taken very seriously and discussed.

V/R,

Curt

[JamesBailey]

Hope the tips help, and know that every single suggestion the community makes is taken very seriously and discussed.

V/R,

Curt

So Curt - what is your air assault landing plan for the LZ at SHURGART-GORDON?

[CPangracs]

So Curt - what is your air assault landing plan for the LZ at SHURGART-GORDON?

I can't divulge that information at this juncture...however, if you follow sound yet aggressive tactics, you can take S-H, but you WILL take losses!

[meade95]

Without sounding flip,...welcome to combat. Seriously - it gets confusing as hell sometimes and, as a commander, often all you can do is set your plan in motion and let your lower-level leaders and the soldiers fight the battle.

Remember a few things, and it will help you lead your troops:

1) Use the pause function to regain situational awareness when things get overwhelming - this is something real commanders don't have available to them in combat, so use it to your advantage.

2) When forces get co-mingled, use the "tool tips" feature and hover your cursor over the unit to get the name. I'm of the mind that, even with a '+' symbol, it will get hidden, either on the NATO symbol or on the piece itself.

3) Pat has been toying with another zoom level, but keep in mind that, as soon as you zoom into one firefight, you will quickly lose situational awarenes on every other unit in the fight that's not on your screen. This form of "tunnelvision" is VERY common among wargamers AND commanders on the battlefield that use battle command systems to fight the battle instead of watching the overal plan develop and manuevering the force as a whole.

Now, these are just suggestions, and are not designed to invalidate or lessen the importance of your observations - I would just like you to get a better understanding of the difficulties of being a commander on a "digital" battlefield and the balance game designers must strike.

Hope the tips help, and know that every single suggestion the community makes is taken very seriously and discussed.

V/R,

Curt


Thanks for the tips and thorough response - I'll take your suggestions with me during my next attempt on the city -

I would say, along with understanding that war can (is) confusing as hell during phases.....and that is to be expected (especially for commanders overseeing a whole battle).....the problem here in AATF is that we are playing the roles of both the Commander as well as his lower-level leaders.

And that is where the confusion pops up - Simply being able to organize (or see) where all your units are (just in order to make timely decisions as those lower-level leaders....Team leader for a fire team, or MG team, etc).

I'm more than certain you guys are working (and have worked) on ways to clear up the confusion as much as possible.

But I do see this area as one that still needs to be addressed / simplified by some means.

Thanks again

[Pat Proctor]

Meade,

I do get your point, though. Even with another zoom level, you will probably still get stacking, though. Just so you know, if you click on the whole pile, or drag click over them, you will see them all on the panel at the right. You can then click on one ON THE PANEL and gain direct control over that unit.

But, again, I get your point and will take a look at other ways to facilitate this.

[meade95]

Meade,

I do get your point, though. Even with another zoom level, you will probably still get stacking, though. Just so you know, if you click on the whole pile, or drag click over them, you will see them all on the panel at the right. You can then click on one ON THE PANEL and gain direct control over that unit.

But, again, I get your point and will take a look at other ways to facilitate this.

Pat - I think a system like TOAW has when it comes to units stacking up on the same location is simplest - (as you are right....another "zoom" level won't solve the issue completely).

In AATF - units do (too a degree) show up on the right hand panel - But in to "generic" of a state in order to quickly / easily distinguish between them.

In TOAW it clealry shows the differing units in a simple format that allows the player to clearly distinguish between each unit that is stacked.

[CPangracs]

Pat - I think a system like TOAW has when it comes to units stacking up on the same location is simplest - (as you are right....another "zoom" level won't solve the issue completely).

In AATF - units do (too a degree) show up on the right hand panel - But in to "generic" of a state in order to quickly / easily distinguish between them.

In TOAW it clealry shows the differing units in a simple format that allows the player to clearly distinguish between each unit that is stacked.

There's a major problem here - TOAW is a turn/hex-based game - AATF is a real-time/real-terrain game.

I think a major issue is trying to equate AATF with ANY turn OR hex-based game. The major difference is that you are forced to pay close attention to where your forces are and how they are arrayed on the battlefield - this is where the "pause" feature comes in.

There is a "tool tip" which tells you what unit you are over, and drag-selecting in an area gives you a "list" of units in the panel to choose from - you also have a hierarchy view that allows you to select units.

Maybe because I've played the game so much I'm just used to it...

The only thing that may help is that the tool tip has a "selection" feature like ATF, and you can select any of the units stacked in a specific region without moving to the control panel.

[Pat Proctor]

Meade,

Let me explorer this issue, think on it a little, and see if I can arrive at a solution.

[meade95]

There's a major problem here - TOAW is a turn/hex-based game - AATF is a real-time/real-terrain game.

I think a major issue is trying to equate AATF with ANY turn OR hex-based game. The major difference is that you are forced to pay close attention to where your forces are and how they are arrayed on the battlefield - this is where the "pause" feature comes in.


Agreed - Regarding the difference between AATF and TOAW being a real-time terrain game Vs turn based -

However, this in and of itself calls in the need for the player to have even a clearer picture of the battle field (and where their forces are precisely within it).

Which currently it seems TOAW gives this to a greater extent than does AATF - At least in terms of functionality and ease of use.

I'm sure Pat and those playtesting / designing (you being one) are looking at this aspect of the game.

I'm just giving an opinion / observation that I think many other gamers will be looking at as well (once they play).

[Pat Proctor]

And please keep the observations coming!