View Full Version : What are The Classic TOAW scenarios?
ASL has a few of these. When an experienced player brings someone into the game, they will either play Guards Counterattack or Fighting Withdrawal. These games are short/quick and have been played and analyzed so often they have become chesslike in nature.
What are the nominees for the classic TOAW scenarios?
I know 2 Weeks in Normandy and Korea will almost certainly be on the list, but are there others?
Bloodstar
08 Oct 06, 11:16
ASL has a few of these. When an experienced player brings someone into the game, they will either play Guards Counterattack or Fighting Withdrawal. These games are short/quick and have been played and analyzed so often they have become chesslike in nature.
What are the nominees for the classic TOAW scenarios?
I know 2 Weeks in Normandy and Korea will almost certainly be on the list, but are there others?
Tobruk and Operation Mars by McBride...
and there is some good Market Garden scenarios out there that are great fun and challenging for both sides (even if Germans have maybe harder times because allied interdiction is murderous for German readiness).
Mario
Spot on with the 2 weeks in Normandy nomination;)
Road to Rimini, Crusader 41 and Kharkov 42 are de facto classics too.
If by classics, you mean for the training of newbies, then yes, that's a great list. If you mean overall classics, like the ones vets will play repeatedly as well, then there are a few missing from your list.
viridomaros
10 Oct 06, 05:08
Definitely you can add EA to your list.
I'm also thinking of :
- wintergewitter 1942.
- france 1940 ( the scenario is far from being perfect but it's fun to play)
Not meaning to state the obvious but I'd have to add Fire in the East to any "classic" scenario list for the game. Either side of the game has it's great challenges and it's got be the funnest scenario I've played so far.
Not meaning to state the obvious but I'd have to add Fire in the East to any "classic" scenario list for the game. Either side of the game has it's great challenges and it's got be the funnest scenario I've played so far.
Second that - have recently started my first FitE PBEM with the quoted gentleman, and it's really great. Will definitely have a look from the soviet perspective, too. (..so if anyone wants...;) )
If we talk about FitE as a "classic", we can also add Drang nach Osten. Although the game initially hasn't been designed for that large scale... therefore classic with inverted commas.
Second that - have recently started my first FitE PBEM with the quoted gentleman, and it's really great. Will definitely have a look from the soviet perspective, too. (..so if anyone wants...;) )
If we talk about FitE as a "classic", we can also add Drang nach Osten. Although the game initially hasn't been designed for that large scale... therefore classic with inverted commas.
As much as I'm enjoying a bar fight against Heinz57 in FiTE, it does'nt compare w/DNO - it's like comparing ketchup to hot salsa :p
I'd add some of the WW1 scenarios, as being less to micro-manage, yet educational.........
Read some of the AAR's, always a good way of picking something your new-guy might be into, eh?
These games are short/quick and have been played and analyzed so often they have become chesslike in nature.
If we come back to the original question, you can't really say DnO and the likes fit in this category, although they're classics in their own right. Just not the ones to get one's feet wet with TOAW.
I have a special fondness for McBride's Braunschweig: there's no way though I would propose it to a newbie for him to get a grip on the game mechanisms.
viridomaros
11 Oct 06, 07:06
I have a special fondness for McBride's Braunschweig: there's no way though I would propose it to a newbie for him to get a grip on the game mechanisms.
forgot that one, shame on me :OHNO:
reminds me i have to give it a go one more time, never manage to finish a game of this scenario yet.
forgot that one, shame on me :OHNO:
reminds me i have to give it a go one more time, never manage to finish a game of this scenario yet.
There is a bug buried in there - Mensch & I played to T33/34 - the Axis received a draw even though a serious beating was due by the Soviets:halo:
viridomaros
12 Oct 06, 06:58
really that's the kind of things i hate, playing 30-40 turns of a huge scenario to fall on a bug. did you inform Mr Mcbride about this?
There is a bug buried in there - Mensch & I played to T33/34 - the Axis received a draw even though a serious beating was due by the Soviets:halo:
I have played four games of Braunschweig without encountering the bug. Most likely some knot in the event structure caused the blackout Foggy mentioned.
Menschenfresser
15 Oct 06, 15:44
It's no reflection on Daniel or his scenario (our experience). I just think it was some fluke of the engine...like the point bug that crops up from time to time. There's always the chance that the instance of the scenario we used to start the game had been inadvertantly altered in some way by either of us (I know I've looked at Braunschweig with the editor...some times that seems enough to screw up the events). Who knows.
Kasserine is also a classic learning scenario, but few play it once they progress beyond newbie status.
Tannenberg is another that has been played by quite a few folks. It isn't balanced in anyway, but it's fun.
Ben Turner
15 Oct 06, 16:15
- france 1940 ( the scenario is far from being perfect but it's fun to play)
Really? The thing is totally unbalanced, besides my other misgivings.
Really? The thing is totally unbalanced, besides my other misgivings.
Well, he said that in his post:
"- france 1940 ( the scenario is far from being perfect but it's fun to play)"
Bloodstar
15 Oct 06, 17:54
Well, he said that in his post:
"- france 1940 ( the scenario is far from being perfect but it's fun to play)"
Ben wants that you mention his scenario :p
Ben wants that you mention his scenario :p
Ben made a scenario on Fall Gelb? :hush: - now he might be really offended...
Edit: Just been browsing through the western campaign scenarios at rugged defence - none from Ben...but an old toaw1 scenario, "Fall Gelb" - anyone of you veterans knows if it's worth converting it to toaw3 (or ACOW for you, Mario ;) ) ?
Nevermind, error of mine...
Seems you cannot delete a post.
Nevermind, error of mine...
Seems you cannot delete a post.
VIP member, eh? ;)
When you edit a submitted post, click 'go advanced' below the text editor window, the browser reloads the page, scroll a bit up, et voila!
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/3825/delwf9.jpg
VIP member, eh? ;)
When you edit a submitted post, click 'go advanced' below the text editor window, the browser reloads the page, scroll a bit up, et voila!
Thanks Stefan, but I confirm I have no such thing as the possibility to delete my post as I used to have, be it in simple or advanced mode. Maybe it's because VIP posts are indeed so valuable :laugh:
Thanks Stefan, but I confirm I have no such thing as the possibility to delete my post as I used to have, be it in simple or advanced mode. Maybe it's because VIP posts are indeed so valuable :laugh:
No You have only 24 hours to edit your post after it is over !!
Der WanderModerateurrPrendsGaaaardeA_ToiModerateurMode rateur_BizetJeVousAssureVousAvezDitBizet
No You have only 24 hours to edit your post after it is over !!
Der WanderModerateurrPrendsGaaaardeA_ToiModerateurMode rateur_BizetJeVousAssureVousAvezDitBizet
That much I know too, Jean-Luc. Did you pass the word among yourselves to consider me a noob or something? :laugh:
Note that my post is not even two-hours old. Not that it matters much in the end.
@Nemo - which browser do you use - this ain't Firefox?
I know, it's not a problem with the browser, just curious because i like the design and the font...
Weird, anyhow.. post it in the szo:hush: ..extreme gamer support forum or whatever it is named..
@Nemo - which browser do you use - this ain't Firefox?
I know, it's not a problem with the browser, just curious because i like the design and the font...
Weird, anyhow.. post it in the szo:hush: ..extreme gamer support forum or whatever it is named..
It's indeed Mozilla Firefox 2.0, with the default theme installed. Among other things, the tab browsing has been improved over the previous (1.5 something) version.
Being tired and intensively dissatisfied with a memo for work due for this morning, I think I left some of my bad mood spill over in my last posts tonight, despite the smileys. I'm not usually that short-tempered, especially with good people trying to help; I'm sorry for that.
I'll post over on the support sub-forum and desist from further hijacking this thread :smoke:
It's indeed Mozilla Firefox 2.0, with the default theme installed. Among other things, the tab browsing has been improved over the previous (1.5 something) version.
Being tired and intensively dissatisfied with a memo for work due for this morning, I think I left some of my bad mood spill over in my last posts tonight, despite the smileys. I'm not usually that short-tempered, especially with good people trying to help; I'm sorry for that.
I'll post over on the support sub-forum and desist from further hijacking this thread :smoke:
Firefox 2.0 ? Hm, should not have turned off the update function...still using 1.5.something
Nevermind, Marc. :)
Edit: Ah, firefox 2.0 beta !
viridomaros
16 Oct 06, 06:17
Really? The thing is totally unbalanced, besides my other misgivings.
i managed to win as allied against a human opponent, still have to try against the computer to check if it's that unbalanced. I know it's probably the worse cow scenario that exists for you, but besides realism, historical accuracy which aren't good in the scenario; the scenario is fun to play. At least i had some fun.
Ben wants that you mention his scenario :p
Really his scenario on fall Weis is excellent, one of the best i have played.
Unfortunately it isn't a classic yet. Though it deserves to be, may be in the near future.
i managed to win as allied against a human opponent, still have to try against the computer to check if it's that unbalanced.
Precisely one of the problems with this scenario, be it PBEM or against the PO, is the ability for the Allied side to win no matter what, if only because of 100% historical hindsight. You're not going to rush the French and British mobile forces in a meeting battle up north in Belgium and The Netherlands - we know better than Gamelin and wait for the Germans to come crashing on prepared defences further south. Which is enough to throw out the German player out of schedule for the remainder of the game.
There's nothing in the scenario design-wise to compensate for this.
viridomaros
16 Oct 06, 06:36
Precisely one of the problems with this scenario, be it PBEM or against the PO, is the ability for the Allied side to win no matter what, if only because of 100% historical hindsight. You're not going to rush the French and British mobile forces in a meeting battle up north in Belgium and The Netherlands - we know better than Gamelin and wait for the Germans to come crashing on prepared defences further south. Which is enough to throw out the German player out of schedule for the remainder of the game.
There's nothing in the scenario design-wise to compensate for this.
one of Ben's argument for why the scenario's bad. But he says German win all the time. I suggest you challenge him by playing allied and him German. By the way i have also won as german in PBEM
Ben Turner
16 Oct 06, 09:13
Well, he said that in his post:
"- france 1940 ( the scenario is far from being perfect but it's fun to play)"
Sure. I was expressing suprise that Pierre finds it fun to play.
Ben Turner
16 Oct 06, 09:17
Precisely one of the problems with this scenario, be it PBEM or against the PO, is the ability for the Allied side to win no matter what, if only because of 100% historical hindsight.
On the disk scenario- by Doug Bevard?
The designer has ommitted a range of major Allied units, slashed readiness and supply of those that are left and horrifically mutilated their armoured force. Meanwhile the German force is boosted to superhuman capability. In particular I remember that their (pre-dropped) airborne force worked out to be about as strong as the entire Dutch Army.
Yes, the Allied player through careful play can stop the Germans in western Belgium. Of course, this provides the Allied player with a draw or marginal defeat- at least if memory serves.
On the disk scenario- by Doug Bevard?
Yeah, it's the one I'm thinking about.
Yes, the Allied player through careful play can stop the Germans in western Belgium. Of course, this provides the Allied player with a draw or marginal defeat- at least if memory serves.My point indeed. Whatever the odds in favour of the German player, they're greatly reduced if not leveled, by the freedom of redeployment the Allied side enjoys.
Really his scenario on fall Weis is excellent, one of the best i have played.
Unfortunately it isn't a classic yet. Though it deserves to be, may be in the near future.
It's a too short fun - eight turns only. But i will give it a go someday. I hope he converts it to TOAW3 when a equipment editor is available.
viridomaros
16 Oct 06, 10:29
It's a too short fun - eight turns only. But i will give it a go someday. I hope he converts it to TOAW3 when a equipment editor is available.
too short: i suggest you play the poles, we'll see if it's too short. Just annoying you here but seriously 8 turns isn't that short, the map is quite big and you have a lot of possibilities. It won't be on TOAW III before some time i'm affraid
viridomaros
16 Oct 06, 10:44
Sure. I was expressing suprise that Pierre finds it fun to play.
just checked i confused with a modified version of the scenario. Indeed this one seems to be quite easy for the german and doesn't seem to be fun at all.
Though the scale and the map seem to be ok, might start to work on this one once i have finished patton for good.
Ben Turner
16 Oct 06, 11:18
It's a too short fun - eight turns only.
I don't see this entirely as a bad thing. You can whip through the scenario in a couple of weeks.
This in turn has a knock-on effect on playtesting. I doubt many of the monsters out there have benefited from over a dozen completed playtests.
But i will give it a go someday. I hope he converts it to TOAW3 when a equipment editor is available.
Absolutely.
Ben Turner
16 Oct 06, 11:20
My point indeed. Whatever the odds in favour of the German player, they're greatly reduced if not leveled, by the freedom of redeployment the Allied side enjoys.
Mm. The Rugged defence record shows 12 German overwhelming victories to Four Allied.
I don't see this entirely as a bad thing. You can whip through the scenario in a couple of weeks.
This in turn has a knock-on effect on playtesting. I doubt many of the monsters out there have benefited from over a dozen completed playtests.
Absolutely.
No, it must not be a negative thing, it would be the shortest scenario i ever played, maybe this in combination with the lots of possibilities leads to an addiction effect: What, it's already over? Again! :D
I didn't see this as a negative thing, just wondered.
Heldenkaiser
16 Oct 06, 12:34
No, it must not be a negative thing, it would be the shortest scenario i ever played, maybe this in combination with the lots of possibilities leads to an addiction effect: What, it's already over? Again! :D
I didn't see this as a negative thing, just wondered.
I am not very much in favour of very short scenarios either. Too much of a race against time instead of a battle against your opponent. Too short to develop a flexible approach, test defenses, try elsewhere etc. Most importantly, no point in resting and rebuilding units. Very short scenarios just force us to fight units to death. :nervous:
Then of course I don't favour monsters either. :surprise:
18-30 turns is a nice length for any scenario. :)
Ben Turner
16 Oct 06, 13:28
I am not very much in favour of very short scenarios either. Too much of a race against time instead of a battle against your opponent. Too short to develop a flexible approach, test defenses, try elsewhere etc.
I'd say success for the German in my Poland scenario depends on an ability to move panzers and artillery to the right sector- even if it means losing half a turn in such a short scenario.
viridomaros
16 Oct 06, 14:36
Very short scenarios just force us to fight units to death. :nervous:
definitely you need to improve your strategy, anyway even in EA being fast is important as well as in many if not most scenarios. It doesn't really on attrition it's rather its opposite. Ben described how you win in his scenario ( you can apply this to a lot of scenarios) and you'll see that winning with the german is quite difficult, the best i have achieved is a draw so far.
I am not very much in favour of very short scenarios either. Too much of a race against time instead of a battle against your opponent. Too short to develop a flexible approach, test defenses, try elsewhere etc. Most importantly, no point in resting and rebuilding units. Very short scenarios just force us to fight units to death. :nervous:
Here, here!
Then of course I don't favour monsters either. :surprise:
18-30 turns is a nice length for any scenario. :)
This I must diagree with, however! :D I think the shortest game I have played, except for those in the tourny, is 52 turns, viva la long ones! :laugh:
Here, here!
This I must diagree with, however! :D I think the shortest game I have played, except for those in the tourny, is 52 turns, viva la long ones! :laugh:
I agree, if it's under 100 turns don't even talk to me :D
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