AH-64 as anti-infantry weapon

[JamesBailey]

So I attack LZ EASTWOOD w/ my attack helos first. Primary mission: knock out AAA and identify enemy deployment. The two 64Ds make short work of the two technicals on the airstrip :dead: as the Littlebird maneuvers to identify enemy infantry deployment. Normally, I pound enemy infantry with arty. But this evening, I decided to let the enemy infantry have some M230 30mm HEDP. Wow -- was that effective! First enemy fire team KO'ed in a few seconds :skull:. I continue to put 30mm rounds down and an entire enemy plt is KO'ed in a minute or so :hurt:. Next enemy plt - same result. I land A/1-502nd "Hardrocks" a few minutes later without a shot fired. :vsign:

Question is: is the AH-64 over-lethal against infantry target? That cannon only carries 1200 rounds, and its my understanding that is darn tough to identify stationary infantry in cover even with that fancy thermal and optic sighting system on the 'D'.

[CPangracs]

Question is: is the AH-64 over-lethal against infantry target? That cannon only carries 1200 rounds, and its my understanding that is darn tough to identify stationary infantry in cover even with that fancy thermal and optic sighting system on the 'D'.

It IS difficult,...but much easier in daylight and when the enemy is firing at you! :D

Have you seen the video of the Apache taking out dismounts and a truck with the 30mm in Iraq? That airframe only fired about 30-40 rounds max and decimated everything.

If you have a general idea of where the enemy is, it's a great area weapon and can/will really do samage. That thermal sight is VERY sensitive, and will pick-up even slight variations in temperature in accordance with its calibration - couple that with an experienced pilot, and you have a very lethal combination.

Curt

I'd say it's a very good anti-infantry weapon! ;)

[JamesBailey]

I was doing some reading on the 64D. Wow, that thing is a bad boy!

That gun - http://www.army-technology.com/projects/apache/apache3.html - certainly will get the job done. I have seen the Bradley's 25mm in action, so I can imagine what just 1x 30mm HEDP round can do. According to one article I read, the 64D's gun is accurate to 0.5mrads! :skull:

Guess I'm just surprised that it can quickly find, track and target infantry teams that are (a) not moving, (b) under some cover & concealment (medium woods surrounding LZ EASTWOOD), (c) not firing, and (d) at ranges exceeding 2kms. Descripitions of the platform's sensor sound impressive, but are beyond my level of compression.

[Hub]

The HEDP round has a lethal fragment radius of ten feet, probably because it has a shaped charge. I would expect the HE-I round has an even greater fragmentation radius. I wonder if rounds can be mixed when they are loaded?

[CPangracs]

The HEDP round has a lethal fragment radius of ten feet, probably because it has a shaped charge. I would expect the HE-I round has an even greater fragmentation radius. I wonder if rounds can be mixed when they are loaded?

Hub,

from what I've been told, yes, rounds can and often are mixed when linked to give the airframe flexibility - if they know they are going against armor, they will get the AP load - if they are unsure, a mix is the ticket.

James,

granted, the ranges and such may be a little wonky, but the longbow can track and engage armor out to 8km, and the radar can actually acquire out to 9km!

Again, it's the sensitivity of the IR system that is effective on ground troops. Is the Longbow hypereffective against troops in the AATF model? Maybe, but would you rather we hinder it more? The best way to tweak something like that is to reduce the effectiveness of the ammo against people or reduce the range it is used (less than max effective range), and tweak the radar, which we may do before final release. We can also affect the training level of the pilots, but the US has the best of the best, so I'd rather leave that alone.

BTW, I've played that scenario with an aggressive attack helo stance, and lost them very quickly, so there must be some proper use to maintain your helos in the scenario! So, either you got real lucky, or you actually used them correctly!

I'll just keep in my own mind it was the latter. ;)

[JamesBailey]

Hub,

BTW, I've played that scenario with an aggressive attack helo stance, and lost them very quickly, so there must be some proper use to maintain your helos in the scenario! So, either you got real lucky, or you actually used them correctly!

I'll just keep in my own mind it was the latter. ;)

I'm not sure I'm by the textbook, but this is how I use attack helos:

(1) TIME. I allow a full 20 minutes to conduct my attack helo phase. Too little time just gets your people killed (your attack helo people, your Blawkhawk people and your grunts) and doesn't afford enough time to identify enemy and get direct and indirect lead on targets.

(2) RECON. First order of business is to recon the ENTIRE LZ. Two things to keep in mind: this is the most dangerous phase and keep out of enemy's weapon range if possible. Once a threat is ID'ed, get out of its fire arc ASAP. Remember RPGs kill but lack accuracy at long range. Circle the LZ a few times with the 64Ds taking most of the risk (they are much tougher against enemy fire than the Littebird). Objective of recon is to prioritize targets for killing in the TIME you allocated.

(3) HELO ATTACK. Once you have good idea thanks to RECON, we attack the stuff that can kill our helos first (and bypass infantry fire teams etc right now). For the HELO ATTACK, I use one 64D as stand-off supression (give him a SUPRESSION order against enemy you are attacking and stand-off outside of enemy's fire arc). As this 64D supresses enemy, the other 64D conducts an aggressive closing with enemy (give him a TRP order, and a movement order to close within 500m of enemy). Make sure you choose an assault lane outside of other, unsupressed enemy fire arcs. With these two 64Ds working as a team, they make short work of most enemy positions. Major weapon is that 30mm gun, as discussed above.

(4) ARTY ATTACK. As the 64Ds are conducting these direct fire attacks, the Littlebird is directing the indirect fight. Arty priority is (a) AAA, (b) RPG, (c) fire teams. You have 30x HE rounds per 105mm tube that you can throw at EASTWOOD. Have a ration plan on how much and where that makes sense with your landing plan. You want the air assault landing as "cold" as possible as it is the craziest, most dangerous part of operation.

(5) SMOKE. As it gets time for the air assault landing, get ready to fire smoke. There is a heavy wind out of west on EASTWOOD, so your smoke area and timings with landing need to be perfect. I think the smoke only lasts 20-30 seconds or so before its gone - you need to have your troops inbound and off the Blawkhawks ASAP within this window. This is the transition between attack helo and air assault phases -- its now primarily an infantry fight!

That's how I have done it. Would love to hear the holes in above or how other folks are do it. :horse:

[John Osborne]

I'm not sure I'm by the textbook, but this is how I use attack helos:

(4) ARTY ATTACK. As the 64Ds are conducting these direct fire attacks, the Littlebird is directing the indirect fight. Arty priority is (a) AAA, (b) RPG, (c) fire teams. You have 30x HE rounds per 105mm tube that you can throw at EASTWOOD. Have a ration plan on how much and where that makes sense with your landing plan. You want the air assault landing as "cold" as possible as it is the craziest, most dangerous part of operation.


What do you use for arty sheaf? Converged, linear, or open? And how many volleys? And When Ready or Priority fires?

John

[JamesBailey]

What do you use for arty sheaf? Converged, linear, or open? And how many volleys? And When Ready or Priority fires?

John

Typically on EASTWOOD I have used:
converged
1x
WR

with new missions entering the Q as I go down the priority list. Most of time, the 64D's are direct firing the technicals, as the indirect fire starts with RPGs.

The 105mm doesn't do nearly as much damage as the Long Toms, but I'm confident I'm doing damage to enemy given AATF's new damage model.

[John Osborne]

Typically on EASTWOOD I have used:
converged
1x
WR

with new missions entering the Q as I go down the priority list. Most of time, the 64D's are direct firing the technicals, as the indirect fire starts with RPGs.

The 105mm doesn't do nearly as much damage as the Long Toms, but I'm confident I'm doing damage to enemy given AATF's new damage model.

What I would like to see is numbering the TRPs when selecting the fire mission. After having allot of TRPs on the map I would like to know when they will fire. On the Demo, Right now I can't select from the unit who is firing the mission to take me to the TRP. At least I can't get it to work.

JohnO

John

[meade95]

I'm not sure I'm by the textbook, but this is how I use attack helos:

(1) TIME. I allow a full 20 minutes to conduct my attack helo phase. Too little time just gets your people killed (your attack helo people, your Blawkhawk people and your grunts) and doesn't afford enough time to identify enemy and get direct and indirect lead on targets.

(2) RECON. First order of business is to recon the ENTIRE LZ. Two things to keep in mind: this is the most dangerous phase and keep out of enemy's weapon range if possible. Once a threat is ID'ed, get out of its fire arc ASAP. Remember RPGs kill but lack accuracy at long range. Circle the LZ a few times with the 64Ds taking most of the risk (they are much tougher against enemy fire than the Littebird). Objective of recon is to prioritize targets for killing in the TIME you allocated.

(3) HELO ATTACK. Once you have good idea thanks to RECON, we attack the stuff that can kill our helos first (and bypass infantry fire teams etc right now). For the HELO ATTACK, I use one 64D as stand-off supression (give him a SUPRESSION order against enemy you are attacking and stand-off outside of enemy's fire arc). As this 64D supresses enemy, the other 64D conducts an aggressive closing with enemy (give him a TRP order, and a movement order to close within 500m of enemy). Make sure you choose an assault lane outside of other, unsupressed enemy fire arcs. With these two 64Ds working as a team, they make short work of most enemy positions. Major weapon is that 30mm gun, as discussed above.

(4) ARTY ATTACK. As the 64Ds are conducting these direct fire attacks, the Littlebird is directing the indirect fight. Arty priority is (a) AAA, (b) RPG, (c) fire teams. You have 30x HE rounds per 105mm tube that you can throw at EASTWOOD. Have a ration plan on how much and where that makes sense with your landing plan. You want the air assault landing as "cold" as possible as it is the craziest, most dangerous part of operation.

(5) SMOKE. As it gets time for the air assault landing, get ready to fire smoke. There is a heavy wind out of west on EASTWOOD, so your smoke area and timings with landing need to be perfect. I think the smoke only lasts 20-30 seconds or so before its gone - you need to have your troops inbound and off the Blawkhawks ASAP within this window. This is the transition between attack helo and air assault phases -- its now primarily an infantry fight!

That's how I have done it. Would love to hear the holes in above or how other folks are do it. :horse:



Excellent over view (and usage of AH-64's).

Learning to use *smoke* with correct timing and all is something I need to take more time in - Whom do you usually have dropping the smoke?

[CPangracs]

Excellent over view (and usage of AH-64's).

Learning to use *smoke* with correct timing and all is something I need to take more time in - Whom do you usually have dropping the smoke?

In this case, your arty or mortars.

[JamesBailey]

Whom do you usually have dropping the smoke?

On LZ EASTWOOD, I use the entire 105mm battery. Line pattern. 1x round per gun. Although, now that I think about it, 2 rounds per gun might create a thicker, better screen.

I don't think the 2x 60mm mortars can create a screen worth the time - simply too small. Also they have real limited range, barely capable of hitting southern most section of EASTWOOD.

[CPangracs]

I was answering Meade's question in general terms, not specific to the scenario. I didn't know he was referring to the scenario, but general use of smoke.