StE Rd1 Allied Help Thread

[Palantir]

ALLIED players ONLY of Rd 1's Seeing the Elephant may post questions here.
Questions will be answered by assigned Tourney Coordinators = Mad Russian for the Allies.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO LIST YOUR SETUPS or STRATEGY HERE!!!!

This thread is just if you have questions.

I guess you can also post of your glorious actions! But please do not reveal any "hard data" on the scenario or game. That means you don't say: "I just received 10 T-34's on turn 4!!!" You don't even mention what you get or what the enemy has!!! But you can say my attack is going according to play & just overran the first objective etc.

[antonius]

Gen Schmaeter,

I endorse what you are saying about honesty and not looking where we shouldn't. I guess that we have to be careful what we divulge to other allied players too. If one player is further ahead in the game and discovers the location of an anti-tank gun then it would be unfair to the other axis players if that was made known here and it gave unfair intelligence to other allied players.

I like the sound of your plan. If there's nothing nasty overlooking that flank then your opponent could be in for a shock. I spotted the danger of flanking fire from the graveyard and have machine guns covering it. I'm wondering if it's worth trying to occupy it with some infantry if not too heavily defended. I've spotted a few places where I can place a couple of tanks to pour HE on it too without drawing fire from the village. I spotted the opportunity to demolish the church too without exposing a tank.

Incidentally I'm enjoying our other game very much:thumup:

[Mad Russian]

Cheating by looking into the other thread is counter productive to why you're all here. How can you get better at CM if you cheat to win a scenario designed to help you learn the game better? If that happens then I feel sorry for the gamer that did it, he will be throwing away an opportunity to improve his game play for years to come for a cheap win over the course of a couple of weeks.

I think this thread should be about general tactical questions...the "how to do" of CM, rather than is this a good plan for this particular scenario.

Then it really won't matter who is at what point in the game. I suggest that you read the overall help sheet that I supplied with the scenarios. They will give you a good idea of how to start off.

The most important thing is the map. Let it help you!! Look for where you have covered approaches to your objective.

Thinking ahead already puts you far ahead of the game. Where are the German defenders? Where will his reinforecments come from? What should I expect him to have and if I was setting up this defense where would I put it?

Second most important thing, especially for the Soviets in 1941, but really for all time periods and all nations, is the plan. The plan is what you're going to do before the first shot is fired. Get it laid out in your mind what you want to try to accomplish. Where you want to try to go.

KEEP A RESERVE!! ANYTHING!! Even a single squad, leader or whatever!!

When the plan gets changed, and that usually happens right around the time of the first incoming fire, you can then adjust to the situation. Change your plan as little or as much as it will take to complete your mission. Mis-timed or mis-direction attacks can be deadly as well. Hold a force to the left as your main attack goes in on your right. Then 2/3 of the way through the game you release your left hand forces as the defender has stripped that side of the map to hold against your right hand forces...this can be very effective.

Need scouts to find the enemy defenders? Then break some squads in half if they are big enough. Small squads won't break in half. If that's the case use one of the small squads to scout with. Snipers make GREAT scouts. Leaders and crews not so good. The reason you don't normally want to use leaders or crews as scouts is the cost factor. They are expensive. If the mission is worth the cost then by all means use what is at your disposal. Keep in mind an AFV crew can be worth as much as the AFV itself in certain circumstances. So, do you want to double his point value by getting the crew killed as well, just because you used them for scouts?

ALWAYS remember to garrison the objectives in your control. Having the objective behind your lines means nothing. You get no points for it if it is not under your control...remember those high value crews? Put them on an objective in the rear out of the way but controlling high value real estate.

Tactical questions?

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

Do you stand off and rubble the village? Do you rubble the church? Do you use your tanks to pound the villages buildings that you can see from hulldown positions before your infantry gets to the village or not?

It can cost you alot of HE and that church will he hard to bring down with only 45mm fire. So the T-34's will have to be brought in to help with the church at least.

Or do you wait for the defenders to show themselves and then go after known targets?

Do you target infantry in a building? Rarely will I target the infantry unit in a building itself. The moment you lose a solid ID on the unit the tank will stop firing. If instead, I target the building the infantry ID can be broken and the tank keeps firing until the building is rubbled. Then the infantry gets attacked by the blast of the round AND the building itself when it collapses!

Another added bonus is that buildings that collapse create dust clouds. Same effect as a smoke round! I often rubble buildings just to create the dust clouds so I can move forward unobserved!

Trenches is another target that needs area fire applied to them. If you target only the units in the trench when they pin and go to ground your tank will stop firing. Area fire the enemy unit as close as you can get and still not target them directly. Yes, your tank will keep firing if you kill them during the turn. Okay. I would rather waste a couple of HE shells than have my tank stop firing and have them come back up firing at men that I now have in the open!

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

MR

[Rickie]

Couple of questions (I've already sent my first turn to opponent, so this wont help on this one, but for future reference).

1. Is there a way to tell how much of a delay there will be for 82mm mortar fire to arrive, if it's not called for on the first turn order? As I understand it, if you use the FO, and target a location on the first turn order pahse, the fire will start immediately (first turn unless you ask for delay). But if you wait, then there is a delay built in that varies with the artillery unit. How can I determine what this delay would be.

2. As a general rule, is it usually better to wait until you have something to bombard, or better to call bombardment right away on likely targets.

Thanks
Rick

[Mad Russian]

Couple of questions (I've already sent my first turn to opponent, so this wont help on this one, but for future reference).

1. Is there a way to tell how much of a delay there will be for 82mm mortar fire to arrive, if it's not called for on the first turn order? As I understand it, if you use the FO, and target a location on the first turn order pahse, the fire will start immediately (first turn unless you ask for delay). But if you wait, then there is a delay built in that varies with the artillery unit. How can I determine what this delay would be.

2. As a general rule, is it usually better to wait until you have something to bombard, or better to call bombardment right away on likely targets.

Thanks
Rick


1. The delay is determined by the experience level of the unit or if it is firing at a TRP. The delay for firing at a TRP is much less than the normal delay. There is no way that I know of to tell before the first turn is over what the delay will be.

2. When you figure this out let the rest of us know. I usually like to be at least close enough to the affected area that if any enemy units are broken I can take advantage of that. BUT that puts you VERY CLOSE to the impact areas in alot of cases...

Also, for my money, if it is 81/82mm mortar fire I use it for smoke. If it is higher caliber than that I "normally" use it for HE. Of course all rules are made to be broken!

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

MR

[antonius]

The manual says early-war Soviet artillery has potentially longer delays. Also there is a greater delay if the target area is not in LOS of the FO, and this could greatly decrease accuracy too. Something to bear in mind.

[Mad Russian]

The manual says early-war Soviet artillery has potentially longer delays. Also there is a greater delay if the target area is not in LOS of the FO, and this could greatly decrease accuracy too. Something to bear in mind.

I never think about delays for shoots that are out of my LOS because I NEVER do a map shoot. They rarely, read that as in about 2 in 1000, land where you want them. That makes them a total waste of valueable ammo to me.

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

MR

[Rickie]

I never think about delays for shoots that are out of my LOS because I NEVER do a map shoot. They rarely, read that as in about 2 in 1000, land where you want them. That makes them a total waste of valueable ammo to me.

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

MR


MR,

Actually, accuracy was another reason to be tempted by the turn one, preplanned fire. According to the manual, it is always accurate, whether your FO has line of site or not. And since it might take some time to get FO to a place to actually have LOS to a target, this actually adds to the time before your artillery can be used if you don't use preplanned fire.

Of course, you might be bombarding away at nothing.

You mentioned a TRP (target reference point). How are they placed during setup. Could I have used them in this scenario?

Ah, decisions, decisions.

Thanks for info. I think I'm going to enjoy this, well maybe I'll enjoy this. Got to watch my first actual action phase from my opponent this morning.

Thanks again to you and Kerry for being willing to put forth effort for this.

Rick

[Mad Russian]

Yes, that's right on turn one you can map fire with 100% accuracy. You also have no idea where any enemy soldier is. You may have a very good idea though and that could cause you to fire a barrage mission from the map. Let's see a village in the middle of the map with objectives in it...hmmm.....:devious:

A TRP will be assigned to the scenario if you don't have them on map you can't generate one. If you do have them assigned on map you can put them wherever you like..even outside of setup zones.

Don't thank me this is all Kerry's baby. I'm just helping out the best I can.:surprise:

Good Hunting.

MR

[clements]

Question: How much concealment does the brush really provide and what's the best way to take advantage of it?

Just playing around the the LOS tool, it looks like my infantry can see through it pretty easily. This leads me to be believe that I probably need to sneak through it -- in places where the map doesn't provide me with a depression to move my troops through -- if I want to avoid being seen. Is that accurate? Any better suggestions?

Bob

[Mad Russian]

Question: How much concealment does the brush really provide and what's the best way to take advantage of it?

Just playing around the the LOS tool, it looks like my infantry can see through it pretty easily. This leads me to be believe that I probably need to sneak through it -- in places where the map doesn't provide me with a depression to move my troops through -- if I want to avoid being seen. Is that accurate? Any better suggestions?

Bob


Why are you worried about avoiding being seen? Who cares if he can see you or not? Or is that important?

Brush is about a waist high LOS obstacle. If you sneak through it you can go pretty much unnoticed.

You can move through it with a disappearing act by moving forward in rushes. You either run or advance, for a short distance, then use a hide order. Now he sees you and now he doesn't. Can be very frustrating for the defender to try to hit anything that keeps disappearing.

You were right to be concerned with the defender being able to see you...what he can't see he pretty much can't hit. Stay out of his LOS as long as possible. But once you determine that you don't care if he sees you any longer then move forward with rushes! Run can be very effective. You can get where you want to be, if you are only going short distances before he can fire at you! Then hit the ground and hide in cover which brush absolutely is!

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

MR

[clements]

Excellent tips! Thanks MR! Thanks!

Bob

[Rickie]

I know this is a pretty open question, but are there any rules of thumb as to how ar along in your advance you should be at particular points in a game?

I notice that I've been advancing on Klementov fairly slowly, trying to set up my positions and not overly tire the troops, but then again, I don't want to find myself with no time left.

I'm kinda asking in general terms though, if you're in a 30 turn game with one objective, are there any rules of thumb to say you should try to be within xxx meters by third of the time through, or half of the time through.

I know when I re-read the question, it seems like too many variables, but maybe vets want to chime in anyway.



thanks,
Rick

[Palantir]

It's all up to you! :p :whist:

It's hard to give an exact answer there are in fact, as you said, too many variables in each game.

You just have to get use to the system, rate of moving / attacking / use of terrain / defenses to overcome etc.

You should figure on having some turns saved in the "bag" in case you don't hold/get to the flags when you "think" you will. You may need to launch a counter-attack to retake or recalim an objective.

Also: make sure you look at the scenario "Turns" setting- is it set at "Variable" or a hard number? A hard number means just that, the scenario ends after both players play that turn. A "Variable" turn ending means that a scenario could be extended up to 25% of the listed turns if a flag(s) is under contention or have changed hands recently. The 2 tourney scenarios are set to "Variable" which means if you can get close to the objectives or are fighting over one at the "end" the game may be extended. So plan accordingly.

[Rickie]

It's all up to you! :p :whist:

It's hard to give an exact answer there are in fact, as you said, too many variables in each game.

You just have to get use to the system, rate of moving / attacking / use of terrain / defenses to overcome etc.

You should figure on having some turns saved in the "bag" in case you don't hold/get to the flags when you "think" you will. You may need to launch a counter-attack to retake or recalim an objective.

Also: make sure you look at the scenario "Turns" setting- is it set at "Variable" or a hard number? A hard number means just that, the scenario ends after both players play that turn. A "Variable" turn ending means that a scenario could be extended up to 25% of the listed turns if a flag(s) is under contention or have changed hands recently. The 2 tourney scenarios are set to "Variable" which means if you can get close to the objectives or are fighting over one at the "end" the game may be extended. So plan accordingly.

That's kinda what I thought, but I decided it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Thanks.

Neon and I are on turn 6 of Klementina. We've been generally doing one turn a day. Though I'll be out of town next week, so might not able to manintain that rate. Is the tourney progressing as expected?

Thanks
Rick

[Mad Russian]

A variable ending scenario can add as many as 1 to 10 extra turns! Or it may end early. I have seen everything! 20 turn variable endings that go to 28 and also go to 18.

I haven't seen where the 10% rule for variable endings is accurate over the hundreds of vs the AI games and playtests I've done. Maybe somebody has kept accurate records. I haven't.

A scenario will end early if one sides morale gets low. If your morale drops down around 18% you are in danger of the scenario ending.

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

I notice that I've been advancing on Klementov fairly slowly, trying to set up my positions and not overly tire the troops, but then again, I don't want to find myself with no time left.


thanks,
Rick


I move my troops as quickly as possible. My vehicles I generally move with fast commands...and that means EVERYWHERE!! I move them fast through soft ground, on the road, in muddy conditions, over grain fields, in town...EVERYWHERE!! I haven't seen where the percentage of bogging and immobilization is great enough to keep me from going where I want to go. Even King Tigers will move through soft muddy ground with fast movement orders and for the most part get where they are told to go!

My infantry I push hard with the combination advance/run and normal movement orders. If the infantry shows that they are getting tired then I use normal movement orders until they show that they are rested again.

Don't worry about the number of turns that you have in a fight. Move as quickly as you can. Engage when you're ready, and then impose your style of fighting on your opponent. Normally, you will either win or lose because of your style of fighting, not because you ran out of time.

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

So far all the questions/answers/tactics have been aimed at the Guards scenario....but what about the meeting engagement or in CM parlance the ME?!!

First off, as the Soviets do you need to advance to win? Do you have enough of the objective flags under or near your control to win?

If not, you need to advance! Now, advancing in any scenario can have only two objectives...either to capture objectives or deny objectives from the enemy!

To capture an objective, means that you have units, worth more value, nearer the objective than your opponent. It's not always obvious whether you have accomplished that, or not, until AFTER the scenario ends! Not the best of times to find out that he has a squad hidden within 20 meters of that particular objective!

To deny an objective, means you deny the points of this particular objective to your opponent! This doesn't have to always be done with occupation. There are times that you can deny an objective with fire. An objective that is in the middle of open ground can easily be denied by long ranged fire, rather than trying to rush troops close to it. In fact, such an objective can be a magnet, to draw your opponent forward, costing him not only the loss of the points for the objective, if you deny them, but the casualty points you may cost him as well.

In assault/attack-defend scenarios, the defender is usually in the business of denying an objective. Holding an objective that the attacker is determined to get can be a very expensive choice if you're not careful.

A tactical decision you want to look at, whether you are the attacker or the defender, is whether you want to even try to control all the objectives! Take a look at the lay of the objectives and your force composition. Do you have the ability to get, or hold, all of the objectives..and if so, at what cost to you?

A large flag is normally worth 300 points, but may be worth as little as 100, or as much as 2,000. A small flag is always worth 100 points. If there are more than four large flags on the map they will all be worth 300 points. From one to four large flags on the map may have an objective that is chosen by the attacker. A single objective will have a point value. The rest will be worthless! The defender will not know which one is worth the points and so has to defend them all. In this particular case the flag may be worth as little as 100 points or as much as 2,000.

So, is losing a tank worth 238 points, a panther, worth losing to control a 100 point objective? Not if I'm giving the orders it's not.

What I have found is often worth more than the objective are the enemy forces you can kill while he tries to defend/take one!

When it comes to taking/holding/denying objectives CM is definately a thinking mans game.

No matter what else happens during a scenario, ALWAYS control objectives in your rear area with some kind of troops. Crews or empty weapons like bazooka's, mortars, spotters, etc. make great choices for objective baby sitters! MAKE SURE THAT YOU HAVE THEM GARRISONED!!!

Imagine how you'll feel when you get a draw, or lose the scenario, and you had 600 points worth of objectives that you didn't control, deep inside your own lines!!!

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

MR

[Palantir]

Steve, I have not sent out the second scenario yet.

I wanted to make sure everyone was comfortable with running one PBEM game before giving them another one to handle/understand.

The second scenario will be going off this weekend since no one has reported any problems. Sorry if I forgot to post that.

[Mad Russian]

Steve, I have not sent out the second scenario yet.

I wanted to make sure everyone was comfortable with running one PBEM game before giving them another one to handle/understand.

The second scenario will be going off this weekend since no one has reported any problems. Sorry if I forgot to post that.


Not a problem Tournament Master!! My post will help those who get the Allied side in the next scenario in the tournament with some thought provoking setup ideas and plans of action....

Good Hunting.

MR