Thinking of Buying/Copy-Protection Concerns

[monkspider]

Hey guys,

I am considering purchasing this title being something of a Russo-Japanese war buff but I have one big concern: it sounds like the unusual copy-protection/licensing scheme for this game is a major pain in the butt! For $65.00, I don't feel that I should be unreasonably inconvenienced! :laugh: Can anyone on this forum share their thoughts or experiences on this aspect of the game?

[Doctor Haider]

What do exactly concern you? The trial can be activated with the Customer ID and a license key. A license works on the specific computer only (the program checks a hardware configuration). You can move a license on other computer by the Transfer utility (is placed in the game folder).

P. S. See the "Self-Reactivation" topic for some info.

[HMSWarspite]

Hey guys,

I am considering purchasing this title being something of a Russo-Japanese war buff but I have one big concern: it sounds like the unusual copy-protection/licensing scheme for this game is a major pain in the butt! For $65.00, I don't feel that I should be unreasonably inconvenienced! :laugh: Can anyone on this forum share their thoughts or experiences on this aspect of the game?

Entirely simple and trouble free - no more fuss than any digital download product.

[saddletank]

The copyright protection system is one the most trouble free I have encountered. You can only run the fully licenced game on one PC at a time (which is the same as any other PC game you buy except people cheat on that a bit) and a transfer utility allows you to copy the full game license between more than 1 machine (say a desktop and a laptop for when you travel).

The only major pain this system will be to is hackers and pirates.

What problems had you heard about the protection system? It sounds like someones been feeding you wrong info and we'd like to know where that comes from so we can correct people's misconceptions on other forums.

[Jim Cobb]

I echo these opinions; absolutely no problems. You want problems? Try to download and install Victoria Revolutions from Gamer's Gate. Now that's weird!

[Kaigun]

I think part of the confusion is coming from this thread Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets sail (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1208620).

The use of the term Server Activation can be taken to mean that the game needs to phone home to play. It certainly obfuscates what is really happening.

Regards..

[Daedalus]

Hey guys,

I am considering purchasing this title being something of a Russo-Japanese war buff but I have one big concern: it sounds like the unusual copy-protection/licensing scheme for this game is a major pain in the butt! For $65.00, I don't feel that I should be unreasonably inconvenienced! :laugh: Can anyone on this forum share their thoughts or experiences on this aspect of the game?


As the copy protection go,s , it is the most trouble free that I have ever used. And it works . That in it,s self makes for a better game as the money goes to the makers like it should.

And the support for this game is second to none. If you did have a issue, and I do not think that you will, the Support people at Storm Eagle Studios will help you get it fixed right away.
Do not worry about the copy Protection as you will not even have to mess with it after the first install.
And you can move the game to other computers if you need, and you can reformat your harddrive and reinstall the game, or put in a new harddrive all without contacting SES.
Besides this game is awesome and worth it if you ask me.

I hope to see you playing soon and let us know if there is anything else we can do for you.

[Lempereur1]

The only people compaining about our activation scheme is the very people who want to crack it! In that link that was provided a couple of posts back, there is one individual posting there tht has done nothing but bad mouth everything Storm Eagle has done! On th USENET he posted that we were in with Don Maddox and that there were not really 40 or 50 people logged into the Distant GUns forum, it was Norm and I pretending to be all of you!

He and his menions have trashed us so much that the regular trolls on the USENET are getting sick of it!

Ther are individuals who were not happy to see Norm and myself return.

This is the cleanest, most trouble free activation system I have ever seen.

[Jim Cobb]

Would that have been Giftzwerg?

[saddletank]

As I understand it, the doubts that some guys over on the Matrix forums have is that if SES goes out of business then the game can't be re-installed because there will no longer be any way to validate the game key online. Jim - what are your answers to these concerns please?

(EDIT: I corrected invalidate to validate :) )

[Zakalwe]

I seem to recall Norm already answered this concern earlier.

IIRC he said, if SES goes out of business (and he added the possibility of this happening being the same like the sky coming down :smoke: ), he would de-activate the protection system or something like that.

Z.

[Harvester]

My only complaint with the system is that there is no way of updating the game without internet connection.

Any plans of releaseing the updates in stand alone packages?

[saddletank]

I think the update to the game as it's running is another tool in the inventory against hackers. The user must have a full licensed copy of the game on his PC before he can get his hands on the patches. This makes a great deal of sense to me because if I don't have the licensed game I don't need the patches (the only people who will want to get their hands on patches if they don't have a licensed copy of the game are pirates) and you don't need a storage area for patches on your PC. The only problem is that it's a minor inconvenience for people who want the patch but can't have the game running at that particular moment but I don't really see that as a valid reason to hand these files to potential pirates.

[Zakalwe]

Would be nice to have one in-game selection, to which version the is game is patched, kind of drop-down menue with all available patches in case you want to roll-back one patch.

Z.

[Daedalus]

As I understand it, the doubts that some guys over on the Matrix forums have is that if SES goes out of business then the game can't be re-installed because there will no longer be any way to validate the game key online. Jim - what are your answers to these concerns please?

(EDIT: I corrected invalidate to validate :) )

There was something posted about this about the time the game came out. I can't remember where though. Or it may have been there faq page.
but it stated that if something was to happen to cause loss of site or ohter that there would be a way made that every one would be able to use and have there game that they bought. Hmm I will have to look again at the SES site and see, I think it was there that I saw it.

But it did make it clear that one would not have to worry about the Distant Guns game that they paied for.

[Bloodstar]

The only people compaining about our activation scheme is the very people who want to crack it! In that link that was provided a couple of posts back, there is one individual posting there tht has done nothing but bad mouth everything Storm Eagle has done! On th USENET he posted that we were in with Don Maddox and that there were not really 40 or 50 people logged into the Distant GUns forum, it was Norm and I pretending to be all of you!

He and his menions have trashed us so much that the regular trolls on the USENET are getting sick of it!

Ther are individuals who were not happy to see Norm and myself return.

This is the cleanest, most trouble free activation system I have ever seen.

:D I hope that you don't think that I am troll on Usenet, I am one of the few people who actually defended SES on Usenet. I hope that you appreciate this.

Regarding guys on Usenet - they are for the most part OK, but in this case they are wrong.

Giftzwerg is insulted by SES because he thinks that SES is seeing he as a thief because of this copy protection activation thing. He regard this as a philosophical thing.

Last time I didn't replied to him about this "philosophical thing" but will do it NOW publicly here hehe.

Maybe to bring some Locke, Bertrand Russel, Decartes etc... to help me here? :)

First, Giftzwerg is maybe not aware and that is not discussion for too much discussion but maybe he don't know that we all gonna die sooner or later. Maybe he is immortal being hehe and want to play Crusade in Europe from C64 (great Sid Meier game BTW) 600 years from now?
Maybe that's why he also want to play Distant Guns in 600 years from now? He will not like those new hologram Star Trek games with memory implanted in your brain a la Neuromancer? :)

OK, joke aside... Do I regret that I cannot play older games? Well sometimes but there are enough good modern games so I don't mourn for those C64 or Amiga classics too much.

Their argument that SES is considering him or any other customer as a thief is nonsense. They are protecting their property like Valve is doing
and Valve is very succesful company and many others are going that way (Battlefront.com, Paradox Entertainment is going agressively into publishing etc...). Activation is becoming a nececity esp. for smaller companies. EA is selling games still in millions range so pirating will not hurt them that much like companies who are selling tens of thousands of copies.

About their nonsense that if SES goes out of business we will not be able to play Distant Guns... That is pure nonsense and coming from Matrix Games fanboys and beta testers of their games.

First why the hell they are so negative toward Jim Rose and Norm Koger. First I met Jim Rose during E3 and he is not some sort of a bad person to me and the one who would brake his promise. Norm Koger as well is the guy who made TOAW one of best wargames and why I would think that they would cheat their customers? That is a nonsense and predicting future is not a one way street. Why would Jim Rose and Norm Koger ruin their credibility just like that? That is stupidity but it goes that only Matrix Games is great and others are good for thrashing...
It's not good to influence CUSTOMERS on the way that they are doing it! There is a room for many wargaming companies on the market not just for Matrix Games.

I don't want to spill any bad blood between SES and Matrix games and I know that they are in good relationship because they actually got old TalonSoft games for republishing...

But, my opinion on Matrix Games... I really have not so much against them or that I hate them (not at all). What I don't like there is:

a) although Wargamer is credible site and objectively reviews all games of all competition - I don't like just the fact that Matrix Games own it - yes maybe that means nothing but I don't like it! Or any other Big Brother stuff.

b) Competition is a good thing! We need much more wargaming companies so I don't like idea that majority of wargames should have been signed and published under the "umbrella" of Matrix Games. I just don't like that. Hehe, and it is great to see that Battlefront.com have beaten at least Matrix in securing publishing of potential blockbuster Theatre of War (developed by IL-2 Sturmovik developers).

c) price of their republished TaloSoft games are a bit high for my taste. I won that argument on Usenet - so don't want to bring that again here on the table.

So what is the problem here? Who in fact doesn't like the comeback of a Jim Rose and Norm Koger on a wargaming scene? First that is ridicuolous that gamers would mind it - even with absurdity of that baloon of activation "issue"... So that leaves some competition and if that is the case I am pity them... They are really lousy if that is the case. That is not good for wargaming hobby of ours at all. I am also peaceful man and I would in the interest of wargaming stop talikng anything about Matrix Games if I see that gamers reach that point of giving hand to each other and stop with that nonsense. But surely would not just watch how SES is becoming Pedro bad guy who should have been hanged and they just released a one game yet. That's really a lowest thing that some persons are doing, and selfish.

Just like Jim Rose said - activation issue is elegant and clean. And surely gives a good feeling because pirates didn't get a hand on it!

EDIT: ANOTHER THING ! hehe... What I really hate is developers like that guy Bradwell or Major H who are pointing non stop that their games don't have activation etc... Who gives a ****? Me not, for me only criteria is if game is good or not. But, in fact that is low to point
that in a interview and actually give public a hand into barking at those developers who use activation... That is mean and low. And pathetic too. Activation is a business model, some use it some don't. But that is not important issue on evaluating game artistic or technical VALUE. That's a mean of delivery! C-64 had Turbo Tape loader and technology is changing...!



Mario

[saddletank]

Once a person gets to distrust or dislike another person that negative relationship can go on and on and on... people are just like that, life is just like that. There are some people about with issues and you just have to learn to forget about them and get on with your life. If 1 or 2 or 10 or 50 people have pictures of Jim or Norm on their dartboards and throw darts at their faces by way of relaxation so what? There are plenty of other customers out there guys, so to SES, don't worry about the opinions of a few oddballs, you just carry on making great games, plenty of people will carry on buying and playing them.

[MajorH]

ANOTHER THING ! hehe... What I really hate is developers like that guy Bradwell or Major H who are pointing non stop that their games don't have activation etc... Who gives a ****?

Harumph. ;)

[Lempereur1]

I was not pointing at you in the link of posts.

You are correct. I have seen you defend us at every turn.

As the shelf space for non EA games vanishes, and the smaller publishers increase thier Digital delivery, using ruputation bashers will increase. I think there is more to this current SES bashing than just the copyprotection. Someone does not want us back on the scene. As with most military tactics, look for the reasons behind the constant bashing.

If someone bashed for fun, they would get tired of it after awhile. But if someones felt the niche they have carved out was truely threatened, they would never give up until the threat was neutralized.

We had the same problem at Talonsoft. Our main scenario design team, Doug and Denise Brevard, were under constant attack by similar trolls. In the 1999-2000 time frame, web security software and MS Win 2000 web OS, were not as good as they are now. The design team's website wa under constant denial of service attacks and huge fake email overloads.

They also went as far as to contact the author of a WWII reference book to tell them that one of his quotes was used ina scenario briefing and that we were using it claiming it was ours. After he called us, and found out wha the real situation was, he laughed and came to the same conclusion that I spoke of above.

No doublt about it, someone feels threatened.

[Bloodstar]

Harumph. ;)

Major H,

I apologize and I really don't have anything against you...

Best,


Mario

[Bloodstar]

I was not pointing at you in the link of posts.

You are correct. I have seen you defend us at every turn.

As the shelf space for non EA games vanishes, and the smaller publishers increase thier Digital delivery, using ruputation bashers will increase. I think there is more to this current SES bashing than just the copyprotection. Someone does not want us back on the scene. As with most military tactics, look for the reasons behind the constant bashing.

If someone bashed for fun, they would get tired of it after awhile. But if someones felt the niche they have carved out was truely threatened, they would never give up until the threat was neutralized.

We had the same problem at Talonsoft. Our main scenario design team, Doug and Denise Brevard, were under constant attack by similar trolls. In the 1999-2000 time frame, web security software and MS Win 2000 web OS, were not as good as they are now. The design team's website wa under constant denial of service attacks and huge fake email overloads.

They also went as far as to contact the author of a WWII reference book to tell them that one of his quotes was used ina scenario briefing and that we were using it claiming it was ours. After he called us, and found out wha the real situation was, he laughed and came to the same conclusion that I spoke of above.

No doublt about it, someone feels threatened.


Hehe... I understand.

But, at least truth will be forced out this way or another. What I expect from some guys that they realize that they are wrong.

Telling customers and soliciting that if SES goes out of business - that DG will not get patch that will remove it from the server is at least misleading. First you have given promise to your customers. Second - you have copyright on this game and owns IP. Even if SES eventually sell out to another company it is MOST unlikely that DG game will stay out in a LIMBO of legal affairs as they are claiming. You can always demand from new owners that game is from that date sold on another model, or you can make a patch prior the actual take over etc...
And lastly - new company that eventually would buy DG or any other asset will not terminate the project and shut it down for existing customers (that would be dumb really because why would they bought IP in the first place). So their story is full of holes like ementaler cheese. :)
They must have a really good fortune teller on their side. I would really like to know how some things in future will be and they surely know EVERYTHING. :D In another words they are just advicing customers not to buy games that needs activation (reading between the lines).

I hope that this will stop because it is no good for this hobby.


Mario

[Daedalus]

I was not pointing at you in the link of posts.

You are correct. I have seen you defend us at every turn.

As the shelf space for non EA games vanishes, and the smaller publishers increase thier Digital delivery, using ruputation bashers will increase. I think there is more to this current SES bashing than just the copyprotection. Someone does not want us back on the scene. As with most military tactics, look for the reasons behind the constant bashing.

If someone bashed for fun, they would get tired of it after awhile. But if someones felt the niche they have carved out was truely threatened, they would never give up until the threat was neutralized.

We had the same problem at Talonsoft. Our main scenario design team, Doug and Denise Brevard, were under constant attack by similar trolls. In the 1999-2000 time frame, web security software and MS Win 2000 web OS, were not as good as they are now. The design team's website wa under constant denial of service attacks and huge fake email overloads.

They also went as far as to contact the author of a WWII reference book to tell them that one of his quotes was used ina scenario briefing and that we were using it claiming it was ours. After he called us, and found out wha the real situation was, he laughed and came to the same conclusion that I spoke of above.

No doublt about it, someone feels threatened.

I can say that I know how you feel and how it works. I have seen the result of how far some of them will go. And what it can do to people and there jobs and familys.
Things like having a companys phone turned off, but telling the phone company that they are moving. Or calling the Fed,s and starting copyright law suits for nothing. Just to cost someone money. And that is just the start of what some will do.

I have no mercy for people like that, and that is one thing I will not stand for. I told my self that I would never again let something go or stand by if it came to what had happend.
I do not mean to sound gruff but what can happen to a company and it's people is not worth letting things get out of hand. Other wise you will never see me do or say things to hurt someone. I like to play the games and come to the forums and have fun.
I have been a gamer for over 30 years , started with board games back in the 60.s then as I worked for a big Chip maker I got to be in on the first comptuer games and sims. That was the only way you could afford a computer then. Cost many many dollars :)
I am lucky in the sense that I got to start from the first and watch it grow. And I love the gaming as much or more as when I first started.

[Harvester]

I think the update to the game as it's running is another tool in the inventory against hackers. The user must have a full licensed copy of the game on his PC before he can get his hands on the patches. This makes a great deal of sense to me because if I don't have the licensed game I don't need the patches (the only people who will want to get their hands on patches if they don't have a licensed copy of the game are pirates) and you don't need a storage area for patches on your PC. The only problem is that it's a minor inconvenience for people who want the patch but can't have the game running at that particular moment but I don't really see that as a valid reason to hand these files to potential pirates.


You are assuming that anyone that wants the patch as a stand alone package is a hacker. What about people that for various reasons don't have their gaming machine on an internet connection? The current system doesn't allow for that.

It's not a big deal but it has forced me to run the game on an older machine that is connected to the internet just so I can keep it updated. This has also forced me to deal with running a newer graphic intense game on older hardware. I have paid for the game but the current system makes it impossible to run it on the machines that I want to run it on.

[Johnnie]

There are two issues, from my point of view, with the copy protection for this game.

1. Company goes out of business; how do you activate game. This bothers people, myself included. I understand the theory behind a license, but when I buy a game, or almost anything else, I like to consider it mine to own forever and not subject to the existence of a small, start up company, no matter how good or who is behind the company. This concern may be theoretical, but it is real and annoys people.

2. The limit to one machine at a time is a different issue and a practical problem. I bought a second machine so I could game when my kids are on the net. I don't know which machine will be free when I want it. Activating back and forth is simply not worth it.

I firmly believe that elaborate protection schemes cost more in lost customers than they protect. I would not dream of stealing Distant Guns and would buy it again if somehow it ended up on my hard drive for free. I want to support SES. I think most grognards would do the same. I might, however, in the future pass on a game in the event I feel that the "neccesary" annoyances make the game not worth the candle.

[Lempereur1]

We understant your concerns.

We already answered the going out of Business issue by sayong we would unlock all the games with a final unlock.

As for your other concern, the stand alone update will never happen. That is why the protection works so well. We sorry you feel that the protection method inhibits you, but we have eched it in stone. You are really going ot miss the very best wargames over the next couple of years.

[saddletank]

You are assuming that anyone that wants the patch as a stand alone package is a hacker. What about people that for various reasons don't have their gaming machine on an internet connection? The current system doesn't allow for that.

It's not a big deal but it has forced me to run the game on an older machine that is connected to the internet just so I can keep it updated. This has also forced me to deal with running a newer graphic intense game on older hardware. I have paid for the game but the current system makes it impossible to run it on the machines that I want to run it on.

SES have a license key transfer utility that will solve your problem in 2 minutes. I use the license transfer utility almost every day to move the game license from my desktop to my laptop which I take on the train to work :) In the evening I swap the license back. Sorry but I just cannot understand your problem.

I also cannot quite understand why someone who is a gamer does not have their primary (fastest) PC internet-connected. Sorry if your statements are genuine but I cannot identify with / do not understand the rationale behind the situation you describe.

[saddletank]

Activating back and forth is simply not worth it.

You aren't serious are you? It takes 2 minutes! Come on!

I firmly believe that elaborate protection schemes cost more in lost customers than they protect. I would not dream of stealing Distant Guns and would buy it again if somehow it ended up on my hard drive for free. I want to support SES. I think most grognards would do the same. I might, however, in the future pass on a game in the event I feel that the "neccesary" annoyances make the game not worth the candle.

Unfortunately we live in a world where there are many crooks and they will hack anything if they can easily get into it. So devs use various tools to prevent this. Sorry pal but that's life, don't blame SES, every software developer is getting more and more into security and it will get tougher and tougher as time goes on. On the flip side of what you say I think a true grognard would buy this game because they love the period, love pre-dreadnought naval warfare, like the gameplay and lastly want to suport SES. Those were my priorties for buying the game. A true supporter of this genre will NOT be put off by the tools used to curb piracy, anyone who says they would place the negative side of the war against piracy as a higher priority to their gaming hobby is just not looking at the problem with a wide enough perspective. Get real my friend, anti-piracy tools are going to get a lot more 'irritating' for the end user in the years to come just because some dorky college kids think it's fun to decompile some files and have a bit of a laugh... or some freethinking sandal wearing long beards think that everything that comes in digital format ought to be free... real life isn't a part of their world I'm afraid. Anti-piracy copy protection is here to stay. Deal with it.

[Harvester]

SES have a license key transfer utility that will solve your problem in 2 minutes. I use the license transfer utility almost every day to move the game license from my desktop to my laptop which I take on the train to work :) In the evening I swap the license back. Sorry but I just cannot understand your problem.

I also cannot quite understand why someone who is a gamer does not have their primary (fastest) PC internet-connected. Sorry if your statements are genuine but I cannot identify with / do not understand the rationale behind the situation you describe.


Yes my statements are genuine Martin. I've since solved all the graphical problems I had with the game on the older machine so everything is OK. And the faster computers will eventually migrate over to the Internet connection where I can then use them to play the game. I just wish it was my decision as to when and on what machine I install the game. I REALLY have a feeling that the ones that don't want to pay for the game will be doing just that anyway.

BTW, One good side effect of this is that I'm re-discovering all those old games installed on that computer. I had forgotten what a great game Operation Flash Point was. :D

[Daedalus]

For all those that complain about the copy protection and how it is making them not buy or what ever. I say that everytime they come up on a site that is posting games that have been hacked then don't download it. And contact the game maker so they can deal with it.

I was downloading a torrent file for linux the other night and I could not beleive all the hacked software that was being sent all over.
Well when a company sees this then they see all there hard and costly work going down the drain. And it is a big part of why we have to pay so much for software. The game maker has to recoupe there money quick before someone post it for download. I read all over forums post of people who are mad because of the copy protection, and they will not buy it. But then I see them post wanting a number for the game because they lost theirs. That is why we have this copy protection. So if you want to see it go away and not have to deal with it then help stop the people who are doing this.

This is the same as all the tags on items in the stores now, and all the video that is taken all the time. One store my son worked at had people taking anything that they could move. And people throw a fit when they see the price of an item and wonder why it is so high.

I will quit now before I start posting something I will regret. But think of this the next time you go to buy a game, or anything for that matter.

[Hinchinbrooke]

Buy the game mate! It's been a couple of weeks since I found time to fire up DG (been constructing a Type 42 for SF), but over the weekend......... what a blast (see below........ it got kind of messy a few seconds later).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/Hinchinbrooke/Suvarov.jpg

In other words, the only other compelling pc wargame game around is MadMinute's Bull Run series............ and I haven't bought the second installment yet........... too busy training turrets, etc.:D

[Bullethead]

EDIT: never mind ;)

[saddletank]

Thanks BH but my postwas really just a way to highlight to those moaning now and a reminder that SES had answered this question before

[Johnnie]

Dear Saddletank:

Comments like "get real" and "deal with it" are not helpful. Nor did I "blame" SES for anything. Moreover, I like this game and will probably buy their next offering as well.

I do, however, have the right to say that copy protections schemes annoy honest customers such as myself. I also have the right to the opinion that the great majority of those who have and will purchase DG, would do so even if they were able to steal it. Likewise, I bet that those who do steal DG (whether bearded and sandle-wearing, or not) would not buy it, were they not able to steal it.

My opinion; I will not say: get real and deal with it.

[saddletank]

Johnnie; my sincerest apologies if I have offended you with my language in any way. Having been in the PC games community for years now and seen the constant war between the developers/publishers and the hackers/pirates I am beginning to grow weary with every new game issued and the number of people who still moan about copy protection. I too find it a most annoying inconvenience but I don't blame developers for the situation. We all have to just put up with it and try to enjoy the games. The developers and publishers get angry customers and have their profits reduced by the crooks into the bargain.

I do hope you buy and enjoy this game. To get an idea of how much fun some of us are having playing it, read the after action reports section.

Once again, I am sorry for the offence caused.

[WallysWorld]

...move the game license from my desktop to my laptop which I take on the train to work :)

You play DG! on the train on the way to work? Wow! That's real dedication.

I'm impressed. :smoke:

[Johnnie]

Saddletank:

No offense taken. I do own the game and enjoy it. Thanks for the kind response.