View Full Version : Beep in replay
Heldenkaiser
26 Aug 06, 15:13
The last replay I watched had two rather strange "beep" sounds in it ... sounds crazy, but there it is. Anyone ever heard of something like that? What might it be?
this means that your opponent used the "undo" button while moving the units
Heldenkaiser
26 Aug 06, 17:10
Thank you - Are you sure? I am surprised that "undo" shouldn't be automatically disabled in a PBEM game .... using it would, in my opinion, come close to cheating. Is it generally accepted that "undo" can be used in PBEM? :surprise:
yes, it may often be regarded as cheating, especially if someone does it close to the frontline, because there, every move is usually significant and may influence the situation on the front, besides, it can be used to cancel the effect of aircraft interdiction, if e.g you move and airplanes attack your unit, you can undo the move and next time they probably won't
but sometimes you can make a silly move e.g. moving lots of units really fast, if it's away from the frontline and probably desn't influence situation on the front, then i think that one or two undos wouldn't be a problem, but personally, i don't do it and don't like it when my opponents do it beacuse it always smells like cheating
anyway, whether or not use it depends on the players, it's a good idea to discuss such things with your opponent before starting the scenario and decide on a set of house rules - dos and don't - to avoid possible future misunderstanding :)
just an extra thought, it reminds of an informal rule often used while playing board wargames - that you can change your move as long as you're still touching the counter with your finger, but once your finger's come away from the counter, you can't modify the move :)
Secadegas
27 Aug 06, 05:25
When PBEM if you use the undo button you should advise your opponent and explain the reason of its use.
Using the undo due to a nervous finger isn't really a problem. Using it constantly is strange (to say the least...)
just an extra thought, it reminds of an informal rule often used while playing board wargames - that you can change your move as long as you're still touching the counter with your finger, but once your finger's come away from the counter, you can't modify the move :)
:laugh: Thanks for the memory jog! I can still remember a guy on a team we were playing Europa against, who's arm would get tired all the time from doing this, LOL!
When PBEM if you use the undo button you should advise your opponent and explain the reason of its use.
Using the undo due to a nervous finger isn't really a problem. Using it constantly is strange (to say the least...)
Exactamundo!
Otherwise, those pesky ant-size breakdown recon units turn into 'super-friends' when it comes to to Intell.
I doubt than anyone except a complete freshman to this game would even consider doing such, but it's a thing to mention in the pre-log to a pbem, eh?
This is probably one of the cases where 'not knowing' such things are illegal is not a player's fault as much as his teacher's!
With the advent of ToaW 3, this info may need to be spread around a bit amounst the 'young', :surprise: , everyone learns somewhere, eh?
In PBEM play, the bottom line is: don't do undos. Keep pets, children and wives away from the keyboard while playing and live with your wrong moves :smoke:
Dicke Bertha
28 Aug 06, 03:46
In PBEM play, the bottom line is: don't do undos. Keep pets, children and wives away from the keyboard while playing and live with your wrong moves :smoke:
Exactly, so if you do any undos, immediately undo them! ;) :clown:
Heldenkaiser
28 Aug 06, 06:02
In PBEM play, the bottom line is: don't do undos. Keep pets, children and wives away from the keyboard while playing and live with your wrong moves :smoke:
That's what I always thought. So many things get messed up in real war and the degree of control we have in the games is unreal anyway, having to live with own errors is entirely acceptable.
But that's exactly why I am wondering that "undo" is even possible in PBEM. Especially considering all the sometimes really irritating "anti-cheat" features that have been put into TOAW3. Disabling "undo" would have been my first thought in this context. :surprise:
Disabling "undo" would have been my first thought in this context. :surprise: Yeah. I for one wouldn't miss the feature in PBEM play.
Should be kept solely for hotseat play or against the PO for testing and scenario debugging purposes.
I wouldn't miss it, too. Though i have occasionally used it when i did something silly by accident, i.e. moving a whole stack instead of one single unit by missing it with the mouse cursor. I have to confess... Absolution, please.. :halo:
I get moves all the time with beeps and restarts. If I suspect someone is cheating I don't play them again. I've even finished games with people who I suspect is cheating ... this is in other wargames not toaw.
I'm the person Heldenkaiser is talking about. My computer's graphic card is going out on me and on some moves the map jumps or splits and the unit does not go to the hex its suppose to. Sometimes it even goes the opposite way. Its a problem I have to fix but $ is a factor.
I suppose I'm more concerned about my reputation than a record. Our game is over because I have one general rule ... if somebody suspects I'm cheating the game is over. I don't need somebody blaming a loss on me cheating. As I mentioned in my email to H, I play for fun and education. I don't need to worry somebody thinks I'm cheating when it against my constitution.
later
...Disabling "undo" would have been my first thought in this context. :surprise:
that's right, this should be the first anti-cheating move
but on the other hand, when someone does it, then we will know from the beeps in the replay, so it's a specific kind of cheating, a cheating that everyone will know about anyway, that's probably why they didn't change it
and if someone constantly reloaded in the past we couldn't know about it and that's probably why they added this very annoying we-close-the program-when-you-save feature :D
Heldenkaiser
28 Aug 06, 10:01
I'm the person Heldenkaiser is talking about. My computer's graphic card is going out on me and on some moves the map jumps or splits and the unit does not go to the hex its suppose to. Sometimes it even goes the opposite way. Its a problem I have to fix but $ is a factor.
I suppose I'm more concerned about my reputation than a record. Our game is over because I have one general rule ... if somebody suspects I'm cheating the game is over. I don't need somebody blaming a loss on me cheating. As I mentioned in my email to H, I play for fun and education. I don't need to worry somebody thinks I'm cheating when it against my constitution.
John,
As I said in my email to you sent a moment ago, I do not in any way suspect you of cheating. The thought didn't even occur to me. Nor do I believe I said anything to this effect in my prior email where I mentioned the "beeps".
As I did already in my last email, I hereby offer also in public my apologies for anything that you may have understood as suggesting that you were cheating. I am perfectly convinced you are not. I am just not used to seeing an "undo" function at work in a PBEM, nor to getting crazy sounds in a replay that make me wonder if my computer is just quitting on me. :OHNO:
And PLEASE let us continue this game that I enjoy enormously.
Regards,
DS
Dicke Bertha
28 Aug 06, 11:45
The first TOAW generations I think I played on old machines with only motherboard graphics - I actually think I got my first stick-in graphics (a 32 MB) much later. Does anyone know if TOAW3 is playable without graphic card?
Edit: Hank2, do you know if you can set a choice in your BIOS, play with motherboard graphics, or external graphics card. A wild suggestion from someone who doesn't know much about the ¤#"@GRRR&/%&%&%¤puters... :)
I'll have to check when I get home but I doubt my modest laptop has anything even remotely close to a high-end graphic card, if it has any at all. Doesn't prevent it from smoothly running TOAW 3.
I'll have to check when I get home but I doubt my modest laptop has anything even remotely close to a high-end graphic card, if it has any at all. Doesn't prevent it from smoothly running TOAW 3.
Ah, my laptop (and it's an old one - 800Mhz, 256 MB RAM) has also just some kind of on-board graphic with 8 MB Ram. I think in such cases the RAM for the graphics is taken from the normal Ram. In most BIOS'es you can also adjust AGP aperture (or so-no, i won't reboot to look for the correct name) size, which means the amount of additional RAM granted the graphic card from the normal RAM.
No problem with ACoW and TOAW3 on this laptop
@Hank2 : I think an old, obsolete second hand graphic card would do it for toaw3 - they should be cheap.
I suppose I'm more concerned about my reputation than a record. Our game is over because I have one general rule ... if somebody suspects I'm cheating the game is over
Heldenkaiser didn't say you were cheating, so no need to cancel a game.
yes, it may often be regarded as cheating
m5000 was the first one who used the word cheating and his statement also wasn't targeted neither against you nor someone else.
Ts, and all this because the undo button is active during PBEM.. come on, let's :toast: and :hurray: .
Ah, my laptop (and it's an old one - 800Mhz, 256 MB RAM) has also just some kind of on-board graphic with 8 MB Ram. I think in such cases the RAM for the graphics is taken from the normal Ram. In most BIOS'es you can also adjust AGP aperture (or so-no, i won't reboot to look for the correct name) size, which means the amount of additional RAM granted the graphic card from the normal RAM.
No problem with ACoW and TOAW3 on this laptop Yeah, just checked with mine, it has no graphic card either - but it's water-proof :D
@Hank2 : I think an old, obsolete second hand graphic card would do it for toaw3 - they should be cheap.
Heldenkaiser didn't say you were cheating, so no need to cancel a game.
m5000 was the first one who used the word cheating and his statement also wasn't targeted neither against you nor someone else.
Ts, and all this because the undo button is active during PBEM.. come on, let's :toast: and :hurray: . Ditto, beers and pom-pom girls included!
Yeah, just checked with mine, it has no graphic card either - but it's water-proof :D
Yeah, this suitable not only for swimming pools, but also for the current weather..Water-proof tanks however would be the right toy for XXX Corps at the moment.:devious:
Misunderstanding resolved ... on with wargaming
... and to clarify, telumar you don't have to use the word -cheat- to accuse a person of it. There's many ways to say something without using the word describing "something".
later.
Heldenkaiser
29 Aug 06, 09:06
Misunderstanding resolved ... on with wargaming
Indeed. :shy:
Dicke Bertha
29 Aug 06, 13:13
So, good luck gentlemen, I'll look forward to following the developments!
Misunderstanding resolved ... on with wargaming
... and to clarify, telumar you don't have to use the word -cheat- to accuse a person of it. There's many ways to say something without using the word describing "something".
later.
Sehr gut, meine Herren. :)
But in the written form it's not always that clear. Happy wargaming.
Schmindrick
29 Aug 06, 13:50
you do that undo that you do...so well :laugh:
m5000 was the first one who used the word cheating...
well, actually if you read the first 3 posts carefully, you will see that i WASN'T the first one
...and his statement also wasn't targeted neither against you nor someone else
and this is very true, it was a purely theoretical statement based on MY experience playing PBEM
anyway, i'm off to play some TOAW scens ;)
Heldenkaiser
04 Sep 06, 06:04
well, actually if you read the first 3 posts carefully, you will see that i WASN'T the first one
That's correct, I said it first. However, it was a purely abstract statement describing my feelings as to why I don't use the "undo" function. I didn't accuse anyone, and I believe this has been clarified sufficiently to be dropped now. :shy:
That's correct, I said it first. However, it was a purely abstract statement describing my feelings as to why I don't use the "undo" function. I didn't accuse anyone, and I believe this has been clarified sufficiently to be dropped now. :shy:
i only raised this issue now becuase i didn't notice the above post earlier, and i think that all the participants talked without referring to anyone, but anyway, just as you said, it's time to drop it :TRUCE:
The debate on whether undo should or shouldn't be a feature in pbem is a good one.
The issue of cheating between the two players that got this thread started is a dead horse. I take responsibility for causing all this because I jumped to conclusions I shouldn't have. I've apoligized and its done.
But lets keep on the subject of undo's in pbem. I think it needs to be addressed and changed if there's a good reason for it. I can see a good reason for disconnecting this feature for pbem. Its just another thing that can cause conflict between players.
And the issue of restarts is another pbem item I think needs to be talked about. If its a software problem it needs to be fixed post haste.
I get these restart messages many times. I just click on past them.
... on with wargaming
Hank
Later
...And the issue of restarts is another pbem item I think needs to be talked about. If its a software problem it needs to be fixed post haste.
I get these restart messages many times...
you mean there are actually restart beeps?! i thought there were only undo beeps?
the restart does not beep
its a message you get when you open a move from your opponent
its will say something like:
Your opponent may have restarted "X" number of times.
later
Heldenkaiser
04 Sep 06, 09:44
Actually it's been a long time since I've gotten any restart messages whatsoever. I know that initially I caused some myself because I hadn't yet figured out that a PBEM,except at turn end, saves as .SAL, not .PBL, so a couple of times I reloaded the original file from my opponent instead of my new save, for instance after having watched the replay first to give my moves some thought before I did them.
Now one of the things that keeps annoying me is that the game quits on saving a PBEM. IMO this is one of those things that merely annoy the innocent without checking abuses. If someone has the criminal energy to cheat, he will, and this probably won't prevent it. Just as games that require the CD to be in the drive annoy the normal user and wear out the drive, but don't prevent software piracy, unless the CD has a copy protection, which it usually has not. :rolleyes:
frankly speaking, when i first read about all these new anti-cheating protections, i got a kind of phobia and was afraid to do almost anything being afraid that the game would regard it as cheating, that goes especially for saving during a turn, as i was playing FitE as Germans at the time and in most cases didn't have enough time to play the whole turn at a single sitting, i had to save a number of times and later reload, i wonder whether the game considered that cheating and if my opponent got any messages, he never said anything though :halo:
As an update
the guys over on the blitz TOAW ladder say they have tested the anti-cheat features and believ there reported messages to be accurate, especially the reload message. They are now going to use any reports of cheating from these routines as accurate.
Heldenkaiser
04 Sep 06, 11:22
That's correct ...
http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=36727
... but I am still surprised as there is no explanation here why there are suddenly so sure. The thread that they are referring to ...
http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=35894
... was in my opinion rather sceptical of the usefulness and accuracy of the feature.
That's correct ...
http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=36727
... but I am still surprised as there is no explanation here why there are suddenly so sure. The thread that they are referring to ...
http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=35894
... was in my opinion rather sceptical of the usefulness and accuracy of the feature.
i read the second thread some time ago and i also had the impression that they were sceptical at the time, but now the first one suggests something different
Since I only see one of the 'old guard' in here (Nemo), and no one seems to have spoken up for the other side, I'll throw in my two bits. First off, I don't have TOAW 3, and am somewhat skeptical as to the potential of eliminating cheating from the game.
So, understanding that I only have CoW, here's my two bits - I like undo. If an opponent is going to cheat me, there are myriad undetectable ways that he can pull it off, so why bother? There's a certain amount of trust involved anytime that you PBEM with someone, and my policy is that everyone gets one chance. When you *do* hear a beep, it is very easy to examine the situation and see if your opponent was cheating - it's one of the rare occassions when you can actually check up on them.
Secondly, I use undo fairly frequently myself. I contracted a new form of Bell's Palsy some years ago, recovered, but since then my nerves occassionally 'twitch', and cause me to move to the wrong hex, to move everyone, to disband units, etc. Were it not for the undo factor, I'd likely not play anymore.
Lastly, I have played a considerable amount of PBEM games (thousands of large turns overall), and have never had an issue with an opponent over undo, and have never played anyone that didn't use it themselves at some point in our game.
I don't see it as an issue at all, but I do respect other's feelings in this matter. To this end, I have a small Word doc that lists all the houserules that are common, and mentioning my thoughts on the undo button has been part of this for years. The above statements are correct - no matter what your side may be on this debate, a simple brief conversation pre-war about houserules will keep everyone involved happy, and keep our gaming minds where they should be:
On the game!
Battle on, boys!
I have to admit I was looking fordward to any anti-cheat measures in the new TOAW3.
But now I must admit that it makes me nerveous. When I get an opponent turn I tend to jump right onto the game, without watching the replay. But once I see the situation I like to see the replay. To do this I have to reload. Also at the end of the turn I open the .SAL file to write down my advances and think what would be the next turn movements. All of these, I am afraid, would cause a "x reload" message. So I try not to do them anymore, afraid that my opponent will think I am cheating.
I never know what messages my opponent is getting.
With COW I had some players quit on my in the middle of a game. Now, if that happens again, I will be left to wonder whether it was because they got any message that made them suspect I was cheating.
(I didn't wanted to amke the other thread too long)
It has been my experience that the more you play this game, the less you worry about cheating, based on three things.
- You realize that most people that cheat will not continue playing this game for a long time, and they will eventually move on to other games
- You beging to master the game and you don't get beaten badly everytime you play
- You start to make a group of friends
And there is always a grey area.
I remember playing the Tubruk 41 scenario against another player. We were playing the with "no borders" as the briefing states. I played the allies
During the game the axis would send small units behind my lines to try to destroy my supply points. The "no borders" were supposed to prevent me from seing this, however I had a few divided recon units running up and down the front line. I could always tell if a unit had crossed the front, since where they had crossed it, the movement points needed for that hex would be higher than otherwise.
In any case I was able to track down those units and stop them before they did any damage.
My oponent quit on me. I always wondered whether he though I was cheating because I could find those units, and whether he was right in thinking I was cheating, since I was doing something that can be considered gamey.
hmm lets see....five / six years playing TOAW in different incarnations.
dozens of opps.
one....ONE...time have i had to ask, "please do not use undo" and it came about that the player simply didn't realize that is was considered verboten...was new to the game, thought it was used de riguer.
when I was a greenhorn, I used undo a few times in ignorance, and was very kindly and gently shown the way of the grognard in TOAW.
To me, the "anticheat" features in 3 are just annoyances. If someone is determined to cheat, there are plenty of ways to do it without triggering undo beeps or reload warnings. IMHO if someone feels compelled to cheat to gain an advantage against me, bring it. Just makes it more challenging.
My 2 pfennigs.
sort of off topic but ...
On this website, when a new post is made to a thread, for those viewing the list of threads, the text of the thread topic is changed to Bold. After a day or so, the text changes back to plain (un-bold) text even though I haven't opened the thread.
In other forums when bold text goes to un-bold text, that normally means you've opened that thread and browsed around. There's one thread in the workshop I'm not to view (it's my opponent's thread) yet a day after somebody posts a new message the text changes back to normal text .. even though I didn't go into the thread.
Is this normal?
Also, is there a way for the web guru's here to check who's viewed a thread?
(if so, they would see I visited the thread the first day or so because I didn't know I wasn't to look there. Since it first was created I haven't been there.)
... and, is there a way to block a specific viewer from going into a thread?
This would help a lot to prevent accidental opening of a thread with an careless mouse clicks.
thanks
Hank
sort of off topic but ...
On this website, when a new post is made to a thread, for those viewing the list of threads, the text of the thread topic is changed to Bold. After a day or so, the text changes back to plain (un-bold) text even though I haven't opened the thread.
In other forums when bold text goes to un-bold text, that normally means you've opened that thread and browsed around. There's one thread in the workshop I'm not to view (it's my opponent's thread) yet a day after somebody posts a new message the text changes back to normal text .. even though I didn't go into the thread.
Is this normal?
Also, is there a way for the web guru's here to check who's viewed a thread?
(if so, they would see I visited the thread the first day or so because I didn't know I wasn't to look there. Since it first was created I haven't been there.)
... and, is there a way to block a specific viewer from going into a thread?
This would help a lot to prevent accidental opening of a thread with an careless mouse clicks.
thanks
Hank
Everything gets marked ars read once you leave the site.
As for the rest, I don't think accidentally going into that thread is a really big deal. :)
Well, its only a big deal because I promised Heldenkaiser I would not view that forum.
But thanks, I though maybe that was what was happening ... that the text changed font when you left that grouping of threads. I went to some other web forums and tested it and some do and some don't change fonts when you leave it ... I guess its how the web guy who sets up a forum and configures it.
Best regards
hank
Well, its only a big deal because I promised Heldenkaiser I would not view that forum.
Well, there isn;t really much anyone can do if you do take a look, just keep to your word. :)
But thanks, I though maybe that was what was happening ... that the text changed font when you left that grouping of threads. I went to some other web forums and tested it and some do and some don't change fonts when you leave it ... I guess its how the web guy who sets up a forum and configures it.
Right.
...To me, the "anticheat" features in 3 are just annoyances
i couldn't agree more, and this is what's happened today
i'm playing Kursk against jeremy schwehn, i'm Russians, and he's Germans, i sent him a turn yesterday, or two days ago and this is his email that i got today:
"Martin,
Nice pic. I did receive a 'opponent reloaded' window when I loaded your turn. I don't know whether this was an error or what...
Cheers!
Jeremy"
the problem is that i didn't cheat - i loaded the game the day i got the file, looked at the situation on the front, saved, quit, and the next day i reloded and finished the turn
this clearly shows that the TOAW anti-cheating features suck a bit, and it's not true what they say at the blitz that everything is OK
i couldn't agree more, and this is what's happened today
i'm playing Kursk against jeremy schwehn, i'm Russians, and he's Germans, i sent him a turn yesterday, or two days ago and this is his email that i got today:
"Martin,
Nice pic. I did receive a 'opponent reloaded' window when I loaded your turn. I don't know whether this was an error or what...
Cheers!
Jeremy"
the problem is that i didn't cheat - i loaded the game the day i got the file, looked at the situation on the front, saved, quit, and the next day i reloded and finished the turn
this clearly shows that the TOAW anti-cheating features suck a bit, and it's not true what they say at the blitz that everything is OK
I just ignore 'em. I mean, if you can't trust the guy you're playing, and you're worried about him cheating, why are you playing him?
Anti-cheat features may be necessary on an FPS, where you're playing people you don't know, but here, on TOAW, everyone knows everyone, and if you don't know someone, you probably know someone who knows that person, and can ask them what they're like.
My oponent quit on me. I always wondered whether he though I was cheating because I could find those units, and whether he was right in thinking I was cheating, since I was doing something that can be considered gamey.
That's what drew me to (then) Warfare HQ in the first place. A place I felt very comfortable in that supported my EA addiction with it's own private forum, peopled by a spirited group of like-minded grognards with whom I've developed some amazing friendships. Once a user puts in his time, it's almost assured that you know what you're getting into prior to playing any of the established personalities here. There are countless people here that I would have no hesitation getting into a game with, as I know from their long-standing reputations here that they are fair-minded individuals.
Another benefit of the club!
(Don, mail my cheque to...)
:clown:
the problem is that i didn't cheat - i loaded the game the day i got the file, looked at the situation on the front, saved, quit, and the next day i reloded and finished the turn
this clearly shows that the TOAW anti-cheating features suck a bit, and it's not true what they say at the blitz that everything is OK
This one scares the hell out of me.
Due to the hecticness of my life, and my established habits (like watching a replay or two prior to going to work, to mull over things during the day; or looking at areas of a front that are giving me problems, etc), I sometimes have quite a few reloads prior to finishing a turn. Add in kids, phone calls, work, friends etc, and I wonder how often I actually do finish a turn in one sitting.
Quite a bit if it's early and I'm allied...
Practically never if I'm the Axis fighting in Russia...
:crosseye:
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