OT: ATGM in Lebanon

[bongotastic]

This news story is a painful reminder of my gameplay in ATF. It may be of interest to you guys and suggest that some interesting scenario can come out of this apparently concluded conflict :lier: .

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4794829.stm

Christian

[JamesBailey]

Sounds like the Kornet was in fact fired in the conflict. That's not good tactical development, to say the least. We will not get any actual BDA stats from the IDF on this fight, so us outsiders will have to patch together from news clippings and hearsay from folks in the know.

Bongotastic-
I looked over your OPCON Sandox project. Very interesting stuff. Might I give you an email to discuss a campaign project of mine that might fit in nicely w/ OPCON Sandbox?

[bongotastic]

Might I give you an email to discuss a campaign project of mine that might fit in nicely w/ OPCON Sandbox?

Sure, the "pre-alpha stage" part of my sig is a conservative exageration at this point because I am anal about the API.

[CPangracs]

Again, the middle east becomes the proving ground for the next generation of armor and anti-armor weapons.

The more things change...

[WMurray]

It's a good thing Saddam's forces didn't have this kind of weaponry around during OIF. I would of expected more infantry AT weapons than just RPGs (if you count those, the regular single-warhead kind). If they had, the Thunder Run might not of ended so well.

[bongotastic]

Maybe it is that Iraq's embargo on military stuff worked... a cynic could point out that France, Germany and other countries that broke the embargo didn't have any AT-14 for sale. :(

[MajorH]

Maybe it is that Iraq's embargo on military stuff worked... a cynic could point out that France, Germany and other countries that broke the embargo didn't have any AT-14 for sale. :(

Are you under an impression that there were no advanced ATGMs in Iraq in 2003? Both French and Russian ATGMs were found there.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/iraq-030403-rfel-164417.htm

[MonsterZero]

Despite all the fascination with the newest Russian ATGMs allegedly in the hands of Hezbollah it appears many IDF tanks were hit by 3M6 A.K.A. Malutka A.KA. Sagger. I don't know how effective this weapon is against a Merkava but it's a heavy missile compared to an RPG so it can cause damage and kill any exposed crewmembers if the tank is unbuttoned.

[WMurray]

Are you under an impression that there were no advanced ATGMs in Iraq in 2003? Both French and Russian ATGMs were found there.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/iraq-030403-rfel-164417.htm


Major, I had forgotten that news, thanks for pointing it out. My surprise was that even less sophisticated AT weapons such as AT-5s which are the bane of ATF players (myself included!) were not more readily available to the Iraqi infantry.

Interestingly, the article you mentioned appears controversial: The Wikipedia article (as of 8/19/06) on AT-14's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT-14) claims the Army's official position is that the Kornets were not found after all:


During the 2003 invasion of Iraq, Kornets were initially rumoured to have been used by Iraqi forces to destroy American M1 Abrams tanks, but later studies revealed that the tanks had been hit by either friendly fire or Iraqi rocket propelled grenades. No evidence of the use or presence of Kornet missiles in Iraq has been found. GlobalSecurity.org claims that at least two M1 Abrams tanks and one M2 Bradley armoured personnel carrier were disabled by Kornets[1]. The US Army however has stated that no Kornet ATGMs were found in Iraq.


Of course this or any Wikipedia article may be wrong and you should feel free to correct any aspects of the article you like, or add to it. I don't know what the current position of the Army is on the matter and no reference is cited in the report to follow up regarding it, so I would be interested to know if the article is wrong or not.

[JamesBailey]

I have spoken with a fair number of armor officers from 3ID and not one of them reported any fire from Kornets. Lots and Lots of RPGs. So I think the official USA position on this is correct.

[Dogma One]

Here it is:

I copy/Paste

Hezbollah arms
One of the most surprising and effective weapons used by Hezbollah guerrillas during recent fighting with Israel in southern Lebanon was the Russian-made Kornet-E anti-tank weapon, a laser-guided missile that was deadly against Israel's Merkava tanks. The question being asked by many security specialists is how the Kornets reached the terrorist group.

Edward Timperlake, a Pentagon arms technology specialist, tells us he investigated Russia's illegal transfer of Kornet-Es to Iraq in 2003 and 2004 in cataloging the tons of foreign arms found in the country.

Mr. Timperlake led the production of the Pentagon's Iraq Technology Transfer List after the March 2003 invasion of Iraq. Among the many foreign weapons he found had been sold to Saddam Hussein in violation of U.N. sanctions was the Kornet-E, and the report on the list included a photo of a U.S. M-1A1 tank that had been destroyed by one of the missiles in the Iraq conflict.

The Kornet-E transfers were noted in the report as a "sanction buster" by the Russians, and although how they reached Iraq is not clear, "the evidence pointed to a trans-shipment through Syria," Mr. Timperlake said as part of interviews for the book "Treachery: How America's Friends and Foes Are Secretly Arming Our Enemies."

Mr. Timperlake and his former boss, Deputy Undersecretary of Defense Jack Shaw, deserve credit for producing the report and giving the world an early and open-source warning of just how deadly the Russian weapon is against the military's main battle tank.

Unfortunately, Mr. Shaw had his job reorganized out of existence the same month the report was completed in December 2004 in a dispute with other senior defense officials.

"[International Technology Service] did a very good thing in focusing on sanctions being busted by the shipment of conventional and dual-use items to Iraq," Mr. Timperlake said. "Unfortunately, the [Israel Defense Forces] paid a price for Pentagon political score settling against ITS and Jack Shaw."

link: http://www.gertzfile.com/gertzfile/InsidetheRing.html

[JamesBailey]

...
Mr. Timperlake and his former boss, Deputy Undersecretary of Defense Jack Shaw, deserve credit for producing the report and giving the world an early and open-source warning of just how deadly the Russian weapon is against the military's main battle tank.
...


Thanks DOGMA ONE. Agreed on dangers of those ATGMs in wrong hands, which they clearly are given the events that unfolded during the IDF disaster in Lebanon. Still not sold that they were fired in Iraq '03, but that really doesn't matter now that its clear bad guys have them.