View Full Version : davidr v liuzg150181 turn 1
Just stated as I have been away for some time. My opponent was kind enough to wait for me. Any way I have enclosed his first move. A lot of damage to anumber of my units but I get the feeling he has not pushed very far in land (of course I am totally new to all this). Do I organise a defense well forward or should I draw back abit and organise a defence with more depth? I will send my move to him on Sunday when I get back again. Thanks for any advice and thanks again for organising this16960
General Staff
13 Aug 06, 11:20
I'd try and retake Pegasus with a piece of 2/22 Panzer from NE and the unit attacking from Benouville on full attack to get out. Then blow bridge and try and deal with paras across. On Periers Ridge and start building a combined arms defence (some armor aided by engineers to dig in), and in depth- break units down and put 2up an 1back, so you've always got something rear. Concept described elsewhere and at this level I use almost everywhere except Hqs which you can't break down and arty). If you look at my game you'll I hope see what I mean.
Otherwise I'd try and avoid open and even open behind rivers as you start with no defensive benefit before you get out your spade. Best to defend as far forward as possible but unless there's a huge benefit- bocage, urban, mountain, woods where you start with 15% entrenchment.
I'd watch Bayeux and blow unit of Taute River near Carentan where he's already over. I'd just defend the town with 2 up 1 back diggng all the way back through the bocage with well sited arty to make it as expensive as possible for him.I'd disband unit at 33,24- the guns will go back to replacements for use better elsewhere and it's useless here.
Blow all bridges between Carentan and St Saveur except those 3 at St Saveur itself.
the recce unit north of Utah- blow bridge maybe there over the superriver and keep the other open for a while. I'd put a 2 up 1 back defence in front of this with 2 units of guns starting in the same hex with 2 front Sturm units. The other piece of teh gun unit I'd put in Montebourg, and split the unit there putting a piece each N and NE. He's a good start here.
Hope this helps. Again if you check my game there's some ideas there plus plenty of other games/tips/advice.
Well I made my moves. Attacked the bridge as advised and pushed the enemy off but could not move on to it. Is this because my attacking forces have become too tired? I think I have ceated a good defense across the whole line but I am sure I have missed some points. The air attacks do not seem too bad at the moment around 4%. I got an attack on allied shipping at the end not sure if I did much damage. I noticed that the allied supply moved up the coast from Utah. Does this indicate a major direction of attack? I broke up my units to create a beter line. Broke up my 88s and parcelled them out to smaller infantry units, is this the correct thing to do? I must admit the whole process of this game is very interesting and great fun. Probably feel different when I see the return move from my opponent. Read a book over the weekend "Overlord" by Max Hastings. It appears from the book it was not so much the generals who created such a problem for the Allied effort but the front line German troops. Forgive my stupid questions but is this factored into the game? Once again thanks for all your work. 16999
General Staff
14 Aug 06, 08:48
David,
I think you'll find this is the Allied turn (i.e. your turn you sent to your opponent). What we need to look at is the turn end save- an SAL file instead of PBL.
Hope this helps.
Best,
GS
Sorry General Staff
I should have used my brain. For next time how do I go about sending you a .sal file at the end of my moves? I suppose I cannot send you my current moves as my turn is finished. This happened right at the end when I used my coastal batteries to fire at the shipping and I did not save anythng. Is it normal practice to save turns before sending them to your opponent? Sorry for all these questions but I am at the botom of the learning curve.
General Staff
14 Aug 06, 13:39
For next time how do I go about sending you a .sal file at the end of my moves? I suppose I cannot send you my current moves as my turn is finished. This happened right at the end when I used my coastal batteries to fire at the shipping and I did not save anythng. Is it normal practice to save turns before sending them to your opponent?
Don't worry.
1) I'm not sure how mechanics work because I haven't played PBEM yet, but doesn't it prompt you to save and close? In which case you may have an SAL file of the same name as your PBL in your Saves sub-directory.
2) Normal practice is whatever you consider normal- most I think do and we have to have them if you want folks to take a look at them here.
Hope this helps.
It didn't prompt to close and save but finished my turn when I fired my coastal batteries (enjoyed that). So should I save it when I think I am getting close to the end of my turn? Incidentially I have read many of the reports and advice that is being given and I am beginng to get a small grasp of the concepts involved. It is a beginning. I am not still too sure about the rounds business but I understand about the different times it takes for units to get ready for attacks and hence make a diference in the % time for each battle. But why is it that firing the coastal batteries finishes the turn? Thanks.
General Staff
15 Aug 06, 06:53
It didn't prompt to close and save but finished my turn when I fired my coastal batteries (enjoyed that). So should I save it when I think I am getting close to the end of my turn? Incidentially I have read many of the reports and advice that is being given and I am beginng to get a small grasp of the concepts involved. It is a beginning. I am not still too sure about the rounds business but I understand about the different times it takes for units to get ready for attacks and hence make a diference in the % time for each battle. But why is it that firing the coastal batteries finishes the turn? Thanks.
1) Could someone else address the SAL issue since I haven't played PBEM yet? Do you have to save manually (i.e. File->Save)?
2) Rounds. I think if you do a search on rounds here or at Matrix there's info on it. Or Knowlton's article. As to Coastal Arty, it finishes a turn less a few other quirks (these quirks are IIRC outlined in manual) and what seems a new bug because it has 0 MPs, si always going into an attack burning 100% of a turn (versus a unit having used 6 of its 10 MPs going in burning at least 60% of a turn.
Heldenkaiser
15 Aug 06, 07:11
A .SAL file is automatically created in each PBEM game when you end the turn. You end up with two files, one .PBL file to send to your opponent, which has the name that you enter when you save it, and one .SAL file that has a name like
"END_OF_TURN_DO_NOT_SEND[your file name].SAL"
If you sort your "saves" folder after the "last modified" date, both of them should show up on top, together with the sitrep. :smoke:
That .SAL file is the file we need here. :cool:
Then of course you can also at any time save a .SAL file *during* your turn. Just remember that you need to re-open it using "resume" rather than the PBEM button on the frontend screen. (I.e. the 2nd, not the 3rd button.)
Thank you very much Heldenkaiser. I have found the file and will attach it here. When I look at my moves I see that I have left some large gaps in my line and some bridges have not been destroyed which should have been. Ah well we live (I hope) and learn. 17012
General Staff
15 Aug 06, 11:27
David,
Maybe I'm missing something but this shows as Turn 1 to me when I unzip and load. Can you try and confirm? Or tell me I'm nuts?
Thanks.
Heldenkaiser
15 Aug 06, 11:35
Maybe I'm missing something but this shows as Turn 1 to me when I unzip and load. Can you try and confirm? Or tell me I'm nuts?
Re-reading the thread, it appears to me that this is supposed to be his T1. They didn't get further than that ....
Sorry if I am creating confusion here. I thought I uploaded the file showing my positions at the end of my turn 1 What I will upload here are the next moves from my opponent and this I hope will be turn 2 allied. I haven't looked at it yet but will do so very soon 17015
General Staff
15 Aug 06, 19:16
David,
No worries. Comments:
1) Arty in Cherbourg is wasted. I'd move out.
2) I'd put everything on IL settings except for HQs, engineers and arty. Of course there are exceptions (e.g. routed, retreated units you want out of harm's way ASAP) but I justify on a individual basis.
3) I can't for the life of me remember when I last used LR, though I know someone pointed out a justifiable exception. Your unit can end up bobbing around like a yoyo. I pointed out in another game/thread (today) where I find TR useful. A search will probably find it.
4) I think generally you need to be up against him to restrict his movement, not waiting for him to come to you. Use every piece of defensible terrain you can that starts with 15% entrenchment.
5) Disband 33,24- it's only got 1 MP, ain't going to stop anyone by itself and the equipment will go to the replacement pool if supplied- if not the option doesn't show.
6) Blow bridges between- not at- St Saveur and Douve Rivers. Then put something behind bridges in defensible terrain. I think his push here will be south, so St Saveur is going to become a bit of a moot point soon, as it's being bypassed on roads to both Cherbourg and St Lo. Stuff along west coast and around Briquebec and south is a waste I think. They've other avenues already north and south they're going to use.
7) I wouldn't use armor in bocage. Suffers terribly, both offensively and defensively.
8) Carentan. I usually move 1 regiment (broken down 2up-1back) to take over Taute positions then move these on to help at Omaha.
9) I rarely break arty down unless I have to to cover 2 areas, or I want to have a last go but still have something dug in for early turn end.
10) Omaha. Again I'd be up close with reserve units digging rear lines all the time. This way you increase his MP costs and where he can go. 53,26 you can divide into 3 to get 2 pieces into town leaving the 3rd to hold the fort so to speak. I'd pull arty back here though with bridges gone 1 won't get across, but put on ML so they withdraw if hit. I'd break AG/352 SPGs into 3 and parcel/dig in into towns with a little infantry.
11) I find a useful trick for using engineers is to site infantry first, then determine where to use them to help dig. And I try to get them out of the line to dig further back before anyone comes along to shake the poor lads up. You can test in hotmode to see the difference they can make.
12) There's the Bayeux Gap between the town and the hills which is open. This would be an exception to the open rule, since to hold Bayeux and the hills east you have to dig in here. I usually use 7th Army Engineers to help dig here, but I see you have yours in the line, so maybe 21st Pz Engineers, though that means they're separated from their main formation (always good to keep together).
13) 69,33 to Bretteville and northern hills along to Periers Ridge should be a good line. I used SS and if you check my turn you can get an idea.
14) Pegasus looks finished so I'd just dig in woods.
15) Site HQ/Arty for maximum support/fire effectiveness- don't forget some guns in units are shorter range than others.
16) Use 2 up-1 back formation with Combined Arms stacks- some infantry and some armor/SPGs or 88s.
17) Watch his recce and supply units as this often indicates intentions.
18) Keep your reinforcement schedule in mind as you place units as sometimes you might leave something back which should really be forward as something is coming on next turn.
Hope this helps.
General Staff
15 Aug 06, 19:19
Oh, don't forget your last round coastal arty shots. You've got one on the CW sector with a great view.
I didn't see him advancing over 28/26 in the playback, i would be surprised if he didn't. Even if there were just the paras at hand i would have taken the bridge.
Anyway, you will see if he did so when you'll move up to blow it. If he missed this chance you can be very happy...
Well here is my next move. I think I have filled in more gaps and have made a reasonable defensive line. I feel reluctant to attack any where except with my coastal battery as the opportunity does not seem to be there. Defense seems to be the best option. With the coastal battery I did a fair amount of damage to heavy and medium vessels and I had 3 rounds of firing?? I could not see how to retake Pegasus. 17034
General Staff
17 Aug 06, 16:37
I think the 3 rounds of firing ++ is actually a bug- certainly Matrix are aware of it. You're right on defence- just look for targets of opportunity like- errr- ships. Or big red lit infantry stacks in the open and not dug in that you can hit with a LA/ML attack with a small unit supported by all the arty you can muster.
Comments:
1) Cherbourg. Maybe a defence too far back. Defending right up against them has- among other benefits- the advantage of restricting their movement with ZOC/withdrawal costs if they want to go anywhere but through you. But your opponent seems cautious and this may win through in the end.
2) Utah. I'd run something small up and down Mont Castre to see what's out there and in which direction headed, but I suspect most going to Cherbourg or through Carentan. Don't think he's doing much in the middle.
3) Omaha. Again I'd be up further forward (even in Grandcamp) to restrict movement/buy time & distance. I'd move arty out of Formigny- should be in rear covering. I wouldn't stack AA by itself- it won't hold and should be supporting infantry. 63,30 and Trevieres with arty by itself- this is pretty vulnerable- could it have got further back, preferably to be stacked with something else to help protect it? If you have any Qs on arty just ask, because I note a lot on TR, which means interdiction hurts worst- wondering why not dug in I guess. 51,34 I'd break into 3 and put pieces in urban with infantry- Isigny, Trevieres.
4) Bayeux-Caen. Again AT by itself won't hold. Expect 64,33 to be overrun. In fact this area is in real danger and I'd reinforce ASAP. 72,36 as 51,34. I'd also try and defend further forward here too on ridge line(s). Periers Ridge- I think you need more depth/less big stacks. TOAWIII is a stats based game to an extent so overstacking just increases casualties since they're by and large % based. In Caen some HQs/Arty not dug in or on TR so won't help anyone on defence.
5) East. 84,37 and others east of Caen not broken down. 84,37 I think I'd have dug in woods rather than open and broken into 3 for depth. NE- I'd evacuate and just defend Cabourg as long as possible with an infantry unit in support of CA, then blow bridge.
Opponent seems very cautious and this is going to really hurt him- it is quite a race anyway for Allies at best of times to get a win.
Just some ideas and hope they help. Over time everyone will come to develop a playing style that (hopefully) works for them.
Here is my oppenent's next move. I have not had the time to really look at it yet. I will have a good study at the use of artillery and its deployment. I had thought it was better for it to be in TR and not dug in to be of use in a supportive role. Obviously did not understand that bit. I will try and move my defence up a bit towards the enemy and give more support to my AT units. The area Bayeux-Caen is looking dangerous for me and I will try to plug the gap. I think that an opportuinity for a small counter attack will come soon as he pushes some units a head of others. (May be wishful thinking) 17087
General Staff
21 Aug 06, 09:22
Not much new versus last comments. Main trouble spots Bayeux and points east.
On arty, TR is useful when you're moving forward in your turn and wish arty to advance with you too- in TR it will support. But at close of your turn you ideally want it dug in for protection against interdiction, plus on TR there's the danger it moves into an adjacent hex and then is subject to ground combat in your opponent's turn.
On defence in your opponent's turn, best dug in. Then it supports defensively. If any confusion, pose Qs and someone will reply.
Thank you for your comments GS they were very helpful. I have attached the file showing my positions at the end of turn 3. It took me several hours to finish this turn with long periods of thinking and nail biting. I am sure experienced players will do it much quicker. I got very worried about the position around Bayeux, it seems that my opponent could easily move through there and quickly win the game. I was also worried about the area of Caen and how to defend it well. So I decided to leave the defence of Caen in the capable hands of 21 Pz. and 346 Infantry Div. I even pushed back some British Infantry and paras using a mixture of 21 Pz and 346 in the woods north of Troarn. For Bayeux: I moved up the advance units of Panzer Lehr and took up positions at Tilly-sur-Seulles. Moved the 12 SS Panzer to NE of Bretteville, it has two missions (1) to stop the Allied tanks moving south from Creully and (2) to attack and push back any units that push through east of Bayeux. I may mount a small counter attack in turn 4 when the rest of Panzer Lehr arrive. I believe my opponent is making a push for Cherbourg from near Montebourg and have increased the defenses in that area Air Interdiction has been very light so far at 3%. He is being very cautious which is very good for me as many of my mistakes could have led to disaster by a more aggressive player. I had another bash with my coastal guns, sinking a number of destoyers and a battleship (3 rounds again). Once again thanks to you and every one who has organised this project. 17113
My opponent returned his moves quickly this time. My units took quite a bashing but managed to hold mostly. Bayeux is quite a problem but the poistions of 12 SS Panzer and the arrival of Panzer Lehr should help the situation. 17123
I returned my moves quickly to my opponent as he was quick to send me his. I say quick but it still took me several hours to complete. A counter attack by Panzer Lehr or by 12 SS Panzer was not on. But they are all in strong positions to reply to my opponent's next moves. If he pushes through with his tanks at Bayeux I will attack him. I have reinforced the defences for Cherbourg. Attrition is still at 3%. I believe things are hotting up now and it is great fun. I attached my moves for turn 4 17124
Here is my opponent's move for turn five. 17214
Here is my returned move. I managed to destroyed the tank force south of Bayeux and pushed back the other tank brigade using tanks and infantry from both Panzer Lehr and 12 SS Panzer. This was my first major atack in this game and it was quite satifactory to see them destroyed. My opponent appears to be making a push east of the Vire river at Omaha. I have moved some units there but it is not a strong defence. If I have the chance I will move more forces there next turn. I still feel pretty confident that my lines are holding well and with the reinforcements next turn I can make a good solid defence and stop him from moving further inland. Of course I could be totally wrong. 17216
Help! Here is my opponent's move 7 and my previous evaluation was very foolish. My right flank is turned at Bozule. I did not think the Allies could move through the swamp and cross the super river there so had moved most of my forces to the south east. I could destroy the bridges at 93,43 and at 89,39 and try and form a defensive line between these positions but I do not have many units available as most are hard pressed already defending Caen. Bayeux is lost and a dangerous gap is opening up between it and Bretteville. My units at 26.26 and 27,30 are wasted there but do I move them north to help Cherbourg or east? At Cherbourg the Americans have captured Quettehoo which means they have an open road along the coast to the town. Do I pull back to reduce the front and how can I pull back in the face of the enemy attack? I need to cover that road. I totally see my initial mistake in letting him have too much freedom of movement by having my defence too far back. But I have not given up I still have powerful forces and I just need to get them into better positions. Any advice would be very gratefully recieved. Thanks 17385
General Staff
05 Sep 06, 10:46
I'd try and put units in his ZOC++ to slow him down on your east flank. I think he'll push here and east of the Orne rather than try to hammer through Caen so be prepared for this- certainly what I'd do, especially when I realized resistance.
68,35- you need to minimize this penetration. You may have to pull back partly from the ridge line to do it, and I don't think you have the strength for an effective counterattack. Slow and use time, a major weapon.
Everywhere else looks good/OK except Cherbourg where you just need to do the best you can.
I'd say this is headed for a draw if you play your cards right. St Lo/Torigni look safe, Carentan will probably fall, Cherbourg/Bourgebus up in the air. Pegasus gone, Foret de Cerisy usually goes too.
What with work and other matters I have not posted for some time but my game continues. I am not sure if any one is taking an interest in this now. I know I have gone on for longer than I thought but it has enabled me to learn a lot about the game and its demands. There is one thing (amongst many) that I am not still clear about. That is, the best way to wihdraw from a combat zone without having too much penality when doing so? Some help on that would be very much appreciated. Any way I will attach the last one I recieved, it being turn 10 (which I have not looked at yet). Once again thanks for all of this. 17664
Heldenkaiser
09 Oct 06, 07:13
There is one thing (amongst many) that I am not still clear about. That is, the best way to wihdraw from a combat zone without having too much penality when doing so? Some help on that would be very much appreciated.
I am not sure if this answers your question, but this is a tip by G.S. taken from the "German Tactics" thread:
Another tip is on disengagement. Read up very carefully on this as you're going to be doing a lot of it. Also as reconnaissance values pertain to disengagement and what the optimum conditions are to do it successfully.
Arty in a hex allows a unit to disengage and then the arty to pull back to a friendly unit. The tip here is you can split an arty unit into 3 pieces and move them up to the line adjacent to enemy units- each piece helping one unit or stack of units, as opposed to the whole arty unit just helping one unit or stack. Pull your units out, then pull the arty out last onto a friendly unit. If you do it carefully you can recombine your arty unit.
Thank you Heldenkaiser. Sorry it has taken a time to respond to you. I get the feeling that we are the last two remaining here. I must say in readiong your posts especially with GS it has helped me alot to understand the mechanics of the game and has certainly improved my enjoyment of it. When you are free I would very much like to play a game with you. I can only manage about two turns a week and I do not mind which senario but would prefer WWII. I enclose my end of turn 10 move. I am still hanging in there but am being pushed hard in many areas. 17738
Heldenkaiser
16 Oct 06, 06:05
That would be fine. And yes, it appears we're the last ones, more or less. :halo:
Heldenkaiser
17 Oct 06, 11:47
BTW I had a look at your turn now (I thought *someone* should ... :halo:). It doesn't look too bad now does it? Your are still holding an OV and your lines appear strong. You may lose Cherbourg, but then again maybe not. I would probably break down the armour at 23,6 and the infantry in the town to provide a better line. BTW you know you can get retreated arty out of that status and into mobile (so that it can dig in) by targetting something with it, than cancelling?
The one area I'd probably be concerned about in your stead is Bourguebus Ridge. Your line at Troarn is flanked and there is precious little troops south of that. There is a battalion in Caen that could be broken down to extend a new line east from there, barring the way to the ridge. There are other units not broken down, even in the frontlines, that could cover more ground and be less vulnerable spread out, for instance 50,34.
BTW, Panzergruppe West HQ on the ridge is more or less wasted IMO. It doesn't supply any troops there save for that Flak battalion.
There are large enemy stacks with orange and even red marks (39,30; 45,33). It pays to hit them with arty (LA/ML with all the support you can gather, or even direct). :)
Don't know if this helps. Some newbie commenting on the game of another newbie. :laugh:
It all sounds like very good advice, though, Heldenkaiser. :)
It all sounds like very good advice, though, Heldenkaiser. :)
Yeah, i thought i'd read a General Staff post. :)
Heldenkaiser
18 Oct 06, 07:16
Yeah, i thought i'd read a General Staff post. :)
Probably because I said "break down" so often. :laugh:
Probably because I said "break down" so often. :laugh:
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
My opponent came back very quickly so I responded likewise. I have lost a proper line of defence and the enemy have broken through in a number of areas. It is not a total disaster but close. But it has been great fun. It is just a matter of time, if the game finishes soon it may be a draw, if it carries on a defeat for me. I see the many mistakes I made (defense too far back, not holding on to a reserve of tanks etc.) and not yet having a clear idea of the game's mechanics. (But I am learning). Anyway I attach the end of turn move for turn 11. Cheers. 17766
I attach end of turn 12 17767
Well the game ended in a draw. This was predicted by GS sometime back. I think that I did well here because my opponent was a bit slow in developing his attacks but nontheless I am pleased with the result. As an introduction to TOAWIII it could not be better and it was great fun. A big thank you to all the people who put together and mananged this workshop. I now look forward to the next one.
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