Breaking down units

[Heldenkaiser]

... is it a common practice, or controversial? I have started a game at Tannenberg 1914 with a new opponent and while I have broken down all my brigades into battalions (as we learned here) and created a formidable frontline all over the board, my opponent is keeping his brigades together, even cavalry, and of course it's easy for me to surround his few counters. I am just wondering if breaking down is "OK" in all cases, or could someone object and consider it gamey? Thanks. :)

[Secadegas]

... is it a common practice, or controversial? I have started a game at Tannenberg 1914 with a new opponent and while I have broken down all my brigades into battalions (as we learned here) and created a formidable frontline all over the board, my opponent is keeping his brigades together, even cavalry, and of course it's easy for me to surround his few counters. I am just wondering if breaking down is "OK" in all cases, or could someone object and consider it gamey? Thanks. :)

Gamey?? Not at all... spliting units is really common

There are disavantages on breaking your units also, so somethimes is usefull, sometimes not.
2WiN is a scenario where "everybody" splits units. Units have high proficiencies so broken units will remain at "decent" proficiency levels and you really need those extra units...

Before (on previous versions) there were problems with the replacements / supply of broken units but i believe things are corrected now.

Personally i'm not much of a "splitter"... i prefer a stronger unit than 3 weaker units when in combat and more on defense. But that's me...

[Bloodstar]

... is it a common practice, or controversial? I have started a game at Tannenberg 1914 with a new opponent and while I have broken down all my brigades into battalions (as we learned here) and created a formidable frontline all over the board, my opponent is keeping his brigades together, even cavalry, and of course it's easy for me to surround his few counters. I am just wondering if breaking down is "OK" in all cases, or could someone object and consider it gamey? Thanks. :)

Well, it's not gamey, just you must adapt to this tactics... One of the bonus of broke down units is that they will receive more reinforcements when they are broke down (I think).

Downside is that their proficency is lower and that they are lot more fragile than when they are in one unit so on attack or defense they could go into reorg. more easily when they sustain losses. But sometimes is good tactics to break down units for some purpose in attack, defense or maneuver.


Mario

[Dicke Bertha]

No breaking down units is absolutely not gamey.

This can lead to very 'unbalanced' effects though. Like in some monsters where the Soviets hardly can break down a division due to slot limits, while a German recon battalion can break down into companies... It is a design issue mainly though and designer intent and skill should harmonise.

[m5000]

...One of the bonus of broke down units is that they will receive more reinforcements when they are broke down...
Mario

are you sure about that? is it only reinforcements or also supply? because if it's true then it could be exploited by players, like intentionally breaking down exhausted units at the end of the turn to get more supply at the beginnig of the next turn

[m5000]

No breaking down units is absolutely not gamey.

This can lead to very 'unbalanced' effects though. Like in some monsters where the Soviets hardly can break down a division due to slot limits, while a German recon battalion can break down into companies... It is a design issue mainly though and designer intent and skill should harmonise.

i was just wondering if it's possible to somehow turn off breaking down units in the editor if the designer wished so? is there an option like this?

[Bloodstar]

are you sure about that? is it only reinforcements or also supply? because if it's true then it could be exploited by players, like intentionally breaking down exhausted units at the end of the turn to get more supply at the beginnig of the next turn

Supply not but for reinforcements I have noticed that broken down regiment got a bigger portion of reinf. and were filled up easier, but to put disclaimer here - maybe I am mistaken. Or maybe it is just TOAW phatamorgana :clown:


Mario

[Heldenkaiser]

BTW in my current game of Tannenberg 1914 there is one brigade in XX Corps that cannot break down. The only one on the entire map that cannot. Any idea how *that* works? :surprise:

[Dicke Bertha]

BTW in my current game of Tannenberg 1914 there is one brigade in XX Corps that cannot break down. The only one on the entire map that cannot. Any idea how *that* works? :surprise:

Formations may only contain 32 units max?

edit: removed edit after Jam's post

[Dicke Bertha]

i was just wondering if it's possible to somehow turn off breaking down units in the editor if the designer wished so? is there an option like this?

Don't think so, but await other replies from people more knowledgeable.

Maybe by filling up formations with static home front units until the 32-limit (?) is reached? Otherwise for battalions, there is always the trick with using half-platoon (double dots) symbols instead.

[Heldenkaiser]

Formations may only contain 32 units max?

Hm, the formation is the XX Corps ...

3 HQs (1 Cps, 2 Div)
4 Brigades, broken down into 3 battalions = 12
2 Divisional Arty
1 Regiment of Horse, or maybe two? Anyway 3-6 battalions

So unless I am missing something, 3+12+2+6 = 23 = way short of 32?

But I'll make a count when I open the game again. :rolleyes:

[Dicke Bertha]

Hmm, yes, I say ask on the general TOAW forum for better replies, I am not enough intimate with under-the-hood issues... :shock:

[Dicke Bertha]

Strange, I am trying it with XX Korps and I have similar problems, there is always one unit that won't be broken down, most often one of the two artillery brigades... yet other brigades of the same Korps can break down after failing to break down that unit. It isn't something as trivial as stack limitations either, tried that...

[Dicke Bertha]

Maybe the number is 24 per formation...

[Dicke Bertha]

It seems it is 24 per formation... And also, you must have max 6 units in the hex if you're to break down to the allowed nine per hex. With 7 per hex, you won't be allowed to break the 7th unit into thirds... Try with the Russian VI Corps at Bielostok, by moving the HQs in and out of the hex...

Actually, I seem to manage to get 25 units per formation. I give up. Hope I have managed to make you as confused as I am... :laugh:

[Telumar]

Good evening gentlemen,

That's all which i could extract from the manual:

18.9 formations

18.9.1 General organization
You have 32 unit slots in each Formation. Please DO NOT use
them all. Open slots must exist for units to break down. If you fill
up your Formation unit list the units of the Formation will not be
able to break down. In most cases, limit the number of line combat
units (things like infantry regiments) in a Formation to no
more than 12; any more and the programmed opponent code
will not use all of the units efficiently in some situations. You may
actually want this effect in some situations. Overloaded Formations
may tend to use Soviet-style echelon attacks.

I have also no idea.. maybe the many divided units mess up the entire thing?


So unless I am missing something, 3+12+2+6 = 23


The illuminates !!! :clown:

[Dicke Bertha]

This will remain a mystery until James reminds us of something intricate yet obvious! Something perhaps along the lines 'originally built for opart, not opart300'? :confused:

[JAMiAM]

Hm, the formation is the XX Corps ...

3 HQs (1 Cps, 2 Div)
4 Brigades, broken down into 3 battalions = 12
2 Divisional Arty
1 Regiment of Horse, or maybe two? Anyway 3-6 battalions

So unless I am missing something, 3+12+2+6 = 23 = way short of 32?

But I'll make a count when I open the game again. :rolleyes:
Two things to consider. The first, is as Dicke Bertha mentions, if you have 7 units in the hex, you can not break down any of them, even if the "seventh" unit is the one that you want to break down. The code makes the check on the number of units, and applies a general restriction, so that you can't accidentally exceed the stacking limits after the breakdown.

The other thing to consider, and I don't have the scenario open at the moment to count slots, but not only do you count the number of full, unsplit units, and the number of sub-units, but you also need to count the parent unit that was originally split, as it also occupies a slot in the formation list. Thus, your four brigades, split into thirds, need 16 slots in the formation. 4, for the ghost parent units, and 12 for the split battalions.

Going hand in hand with this, you need to realize that similar to the hex stacking check, there is a formational slot check, that will prohibit splitting units if there are fewer than three empty slots. The soon to be ghosted parent still occupies its own slot, but each of the three potential sub-units needs to be accounted for, prior to allowing it to split. When you get to the formational limit sometimes you can be clever and split a unit into halves, then another into thirds, whereas if you tried it the other way around, first splitting into thirds will not leave enough slots left for the final split.

[Dicke Bertha]

:hail: Hail the Chief.

So Heldenkaiser's XX Corps becomes, theoretically split into thirds:
3 HQs = 3 slots
4 brigades = 16 slots
2 divisional arty brigades = 8 slots
2 cavalry regs = 8 slots
Sum = 35 > 32 => overload

[Dicke Bertha]

Going hand in hand with this, you need to realize that similar to the hex stacking check, there is a formational slot check, that will prohibit splitting units if there are fewer than three empty slots. The soon to be ghosted parent still occupies its own slot, but each of the three potential sub-units needs to be accounted for, prior to allowing it to split. When you get to the formational limit sometimes you can be clever and split a unit into halves, then another into thirds, whereas if you tried it the other way around, first splitting into thirds will not leave enough slots left for the final split.
This makes me wonder if I've actually managed to fill up all the possible slots when playing monsters in ACOW. Maybe I've thought I've reached the 2000 limit, when I've really only exhausted the formation 'ghost' limits. Can the former be overridden by the latter, or is is a definitely fixed number? The lesson to be learnt is to - once your formation limit is reached - try to recombine a 'split-to-thirds', split into twos, and try split another unsplit unit into threes. Wow.

[m5000]

...Maybe I've thought I've reached the 2000 limit...


hmmm, i'm curious why they didn't change it in TOAW III and increase to e.g 4000, after all, if i'm not mistaken, they increased the number of possible events

could make large eastern front scenarios more historical with regard to russian units, but then what about playability :D