View Full Version : Should vets go easy on noobs?
Nemesis Lead
05 Aug 06, 14:40
I have seen a lot of threads recently where "vets" claim to go easy on "newbs" either holding back in games or not reporting the game if the newb loses.
This is about the worst thing a vet could do to a new player.
Vets should try to pummel new players. That's right--show absolutely no mercy. This way, the new player REALLY LEARNS when he loses so long as he really analyzes what went wrong.
The analysis is the key--some guys just dont know how to or dont want to do this (they want to end the debacle and pretend it never happened). Some guys just keep on using the same failed strategies over and over and somehow expect things to get better. I see this in mirrored games alot.
DONT play games with vets who you think might it easy on you.
DONT accept charity from vets who offer to not report games where the newb loses.
DO play the best people possible, ask that they hold nothing back, fight all battles to conclusion, and pay careful attention to what happens. Modify your game accordingly.
I totally agree and I am a newb. LOL I would rather take a hard defeat than have someone let me off easy. :p
Tim
Poor Old Spike
05 Aug 06, 15:00
Timu quote - I totally agree and I am a newb. LOL I would rather take a hard defeat than have someone let me off easy
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But suppose I bust up a noob in the first 5 turns because he made some boo-boo, wouldn't it be best to halt the game and start again and say "Right,this time don't do what you did last time and you'll survive a lot longer"?
Timu quote - I totally agree and I am a newb. LOL I would rather take a hard defeat than have someone let me off easy
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But suppose I bust up a noob in the first 5 turns because he made some boo-boo, wouldn't it be best to halt the game and start again and say "Right,this time don't do what you did last time and you'll survive a lot longer"?
I guess it all depends on the situation and what the newb wants. If you completely destroyed all the newbs tanks by turn 5 it might be better to start over.
However it could also be helpful for the newb to continue the fight. Maybe he could learn how to advance his infantry over open ground while being fired upon.
I guess it would all depend on how the two players wanted to handle the situation. I personally would want to fight on...but maybe I am just :clown: :nuts:
Tim
KGPanzerschrecK
05 Aug 06, 16:03
Thats why a new guy should NOT have anything to do with ladders until he is ready and fit to play on one. What good is it going to do you when you finally know what your doing a year or a year and a 1/2 from now and your record is 5-50-5?
My advice is not to play on a ladder until your ready and capable to play at a decent level of playing ability. Its no fun being cannon fodder for someone whos out of your league.
Remember this Timu24, Tanks may win you a battle here and there, but Infantry win wars {and hold Flags}.
Poor Old Spike
05 Aug 06, 16:16
KG Shrek quote - Remember this Timu24, Tanks may win you a battle here and there, but Infantry win wars {and hold Flags}
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But on the other hand anybody can win by simply flooding the map with hordes of infantry.
Sure, the other guy can flood too, but then you get a boring Somme battle all over again.
I prefer the cut and thrust of tank duels, its much more fun :)
Hitler agrees with me -
In 1933 Guderian demonstrated the earliest Mark I tanks to Hitler at Kummersdoff and the new Chancellor told him excitedly: 'That's what I need! That's what I want to have!'
I don't know when you're ready to start ladder games. You play until you can handle the AI and maybe against a local friend but then I think you just have to jump in.
If a newb asks for a unrated game how much trouble will it be in finding opponents?
KGPanzerschrecK
05 Aug 06, 16:38
Any new guy, or anyone else for that matter lacking for unrated games Here can come to KG's site to look for opponents. He'll get a fair game and friendly advice too{If it is requested of course}. All one needs to do is sign up for the forum, go to the CM section and post up in the "Come get some" thread.
RedDevil (FGM)
05 Aug 06, 17:04
This sounds like a good deal.. you KG guys don't look like the sort who put up with egoistical megalomaniacs..
To answer the posted question I don't think vets should ever go easy on noobs. I basically agree with Nemesis' assessment, but for the charity part. The best way to learn is to be taken apart and find out what went wrong. On the other hand if after the slaughter the vet says he won't post it then I don't have a problem with that. The noob isn't going to learn anything more from having his wipe out posted. The damage was already done so they can just consider it an off-ladder battle if they want.
As I see it, there are many CM scenarios that favor one side or another to various degrees. Many of these state which side the more experienced player should take. So as a vet, take the more challenging side of the battle or op.
By the way, feel free to play the game as a non-ladder game. The SZO ladder seems to lend itself to relatively even games and/or mirrored matches.
Iron Mike USMC
05 Aug 06, 18:37
Whether or not the battle goes on the ladder, the experienced player should provide a good, analytical AAR to help the noob understand what they did wrong, or could do better (assuming they lost). The AAR will not only assist the noob in becoming a better player (assuming he pays attention) the AAR wilso benefit other new players.
These games can also assist the experienced players by providing opportunities to try new strategies, without jeapordizing their standing.
Nemesis Lead
05 Aug 06, 18:40
But suppose I bust up a noob in the first 5 turns because he made some boo-boo, wouldn't it be best to halt the game and start again and say "Right,this time don't do what you did last time and you'll survive a lot longer"?
Nope--the new guy has to learn how to play when his back is against the ropes. Learning how to "Hold the Line with Nothing" is the single most important thing to learn in CM.
The newb might lose with 90% certainty....but he will DEFINATELY learn a thing or two about how to fight in a mismatch. This will serve him well when he is a vet, fighting in a tourney, and things don't go his way.....
In my experience....many people often declare a game "over and not worth playing" way too early. Lost all your heavy AT weapons? Pull your surviving infantry back into a reverse slope and get some practice in killing tanks in close combat. If anything...the vet can show you how to "finish off" an opponent.
Where the word noob comes from and means?:hmmm: :confused: :hmmm:
Nemesis Lead
05 Aug 06, 19:14
To answer the posted question I don't think vets should ever go easy on noobs. I basically agree with Nemesis' assessment, but for the charity part. The best way to learn is to be taken apart and find out what went wrong. On the other hand if after the slaughter the vet says he won't post it then I don't have a problem with that. The noob isn't going to learn anything more from having his wipe out posted. The damage was already done so they can just consider it an off-ladder battle if they want.
This is good....we are largely agreeing :crosseye:
As far as "charity"......if it is to be a "learning" game....just play a non-rated game. Make it clear up front. That is perfectly fine.
As far as this whole "I am a vet and if I win we won't report the game but if you win we will report the game"......
For a vet to make such an offer is either very big or very arrogant, depending on how you look at it.
But for the new player to accept such terms is very unsportsmanlike. If I were a newb I would not want to play with such terms because:
1) It is incredibly condescending. The vet is basically saying "you can't beat me." Prove him wrong. Beat him fair and square. We are adults....only kids are treated with kid gloves. That is why the call them kid gloves.:laugh:
2) It is unsportsmanlike for the new player to accept such terms. If you lose, take it like a man. IF YOU ARE NEW, YOU ARE EXPECTED TO LOSE--IT IS OK.
3) Related to number 2.....if the new player won, would he really be justified in posting a victory under these conditions? Is this honorable?
I take the SZO ladder seriously. Would you take the NFL or World Cup Soccer seriously if there were teams being treated with kid gloves?
A new player can beat an experienced player. Mt. Carmel Hill has 4 ladder games to his name. He just beat Taktik, an Elite caliber player. Mt. Carmel Hill won fair and square and can take great pride in his win. Could he be as proud if he won under the "kid glove" system?
How can you experience joy in victory if there is no possibility of defeat? This "kid glove" stuff should stop.
This is good....we are largely agreeing :crosseye: Hard to believe but it does happen occasionally. :cheeky:
In truth I wouldn't want that type of advantage if I were a noob. Nor would I want a noob to expect such an offer. I play close to as many games off ladder as on, and that's a good way to learn - much room for experimentation there.
My charity statement was based on the assumption that some noobs might appreciate it. I confess I didn't do a survey of the topic first though. :) This sounds like a good topic for a mangus poll! :D
KGPanzerschrecK
06 Aug 06, 01:50
Some of you guys may of misunderstood my statement when i said what i did earlier about playing on ladders. I should of been more clear in my explanation.
I meant what i said about not playing on one when your not ready.
That being said a veteran player should not hold back when playing a new guy. Give him your "A" game and play him as if your very life depended on it. Afterword discuss the game in detail. Answer all his questions and tell him what he did wrong, why it went wrong ect... Discuss tactics and combined arms or whatever you need to discuss about the game to help him become a better player.
@ Timu24, ive been playing the CM series for years and i am now just playing my first ladder game with Bertram, which BTW isnt going well for me. I can still pull out a win, i control the main VL and the town but i have lost my only 2 Tanks and he has 4 Marders and a Tiger I running around. Beginners bad luck i guess, topped off by good play by my opponent no doubt. :)
@ RedDevil{FGM} Your right about what you said. We enjoy the company of easy going nice people who want to have fair fun games and a good time and make some good friends along the way. :cool:
mangus2000
06 Aug 06, 05:36
There is no greater feeling in CM than being beaten down early in the game and making a good come back, even if it's a Draw or Minor defeat.
As has been said earlier this is where you learn the most and all Newbies should welcome these as the lessons they are.
It's good that the vets will offer advice on games during them but they Newb should be left in charge of there own destiny and take there defeats as well as the victorys, taking note on where they could have done better and crafting there responses to all the different threats out on the CM battle field.
Neilm85uk
06 Aug 06, 06:47
Whether or not the battle goes on the ladder, the experienced player should provide a good, analytical AAR to help the noob understand what they did wrong, or could do better (assuming they lost). The AAR will not only assist the noob in becoming a better player (assuming he pays attention) the AAR wilso benefit other new players.
These games can also assist the experienced players by providing opportunities to try new strategies, without jeapordizing their standing.
I think this is spot on though I don't think it should just apply to noobs. If you see your opponent make a mistake then, regardless of their abilities, you should let them know. It makes for better games in the long run.
Sportsmanship, is the cornerstone of all gaming. If you are whipping someone and they are not having a good time, you should especially if your a Vet is to ease the pain. That may require putting aside your ideas of teaching a lesson and start over.
Being able to see your opponents files is the ultimate gift after a battle is over by giving them your password, IMHO. Everyone I've asked at SZO has done so and it's a great learning tool. You can not only see where they moved their forces but HOW. Formations and timing are easily seen. The use of arcs is on display as well.
Any new guy, or anyone else for that matter lacking for unrated games Here can come to KG's site to look for opponents. He'll get a fair game and friendly advice too{If it is requested of course}.
Thanks for that ringing endorsement of this forum, its members and quality of players here. I will assume, since I know Kent's caliber, that he didn't mean it exactly as it came out...
However:
I'm more taken aback by the lack of "defense" for this forum and its members BY the forum members, then by the comment itself. Apparently being a member of the SZO-CM section & hinted at as having poor sportsmanship / being unfriendly / and not wanting to be a gentleman-warrior doesn't bother anyone but me.
My ladder experience isn't sufficient enough to offer veteran or expert input but I would play an even less experienced player if he asked.
Since I've been playing Kent, his emails transmit the kind of guy he is, certainly not rude or demeaning. Based on that, I didn't take offense to his initial comments.:cool:
Thanks for that ringing endorsement of this forum, its members and quality of players here. I will assume, since I know Kent's caliber, that he didn't mean it exactly as it came out...
However:
I'm more taken aback by the lack of "defense" for this forum and its members BY the forum members, then by the comment itself. Apparently being a member of the SZO-CM section & hinted at as having poor sportsmanship / being unfriendly / and not wanting to be a gentleman-warrior doesn't bother anyone but me.Don't take it personally. This is a great site! I'm also a member of BoB but I spend 98% of my time and games here. :)
Don't take it personally. This is a great site! I'm also a member of BoB but I spend 98% of my time and games here. :)
You need to get with the times and buy CMAK. It's time for you to graduate.;) :laugh: :smoke:
KG_Cloghaun
06 Aug 06, 15:59
Originally Posted by Palantir
Thanks for that ringing endorsement of this forum, its members and quality of players here. I will assume, since I know Kent's caliber, that he didn't mean it exactly as it came out...
However:
I'm more taken aback by the lack of "defense" for this forum and its members BY the forum members, then by the comment itself. Apparently being a member of the SZO-CM section & hinted at as having poor sportsmanship / being unfriendly / and not wanting to be a gentleman-warrior doesn't bother anyone but me.
You totally missunderstood what Kent said, Kerry.
All he was doing was advertising our site as another place to look for "unrated" games. He then added that you'll get a fair game at our site as well. He didn't intend to compare or contrast our site to SZO. Since you do know Kent, I'm surprised you would even think this. I guess it's been a little tense around here lately.
You need to get with the times and buy CMAK. It's time for you to graduate.;) :laugh: :smoke:What, you mean graduate down? :clown:
Colonel Talvela
07 Aug 06, 11:38
As far as this whole "I am a vet and if I win we won't report the game but if you win we will report the game"......
I dont see the problem with this. What does it matter if Spike wants to offer this? Apparently some people have taken him up on the offer, so they probably appreciated it.
I take the SZO ladder seriously. Would you take the NFL or World Cup Soccer seriously if there were teams being treated with kid gloves?
I am all for taking ladders seriously, but in the context of it is first just a recreational game - more along the lines of little league baseball than NFL. I doubt anybody is making millions playing CM.
You totally missunderstood what Kent said, Kerry. He is correct after it was pointed out what it "said," I appologize to Kent for misreading his well meaning (if confusing to me) comment. :TRUCE: :toast:
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