Harpoon 3 ANW 3.7.1 Beta Update Now Available [Archive]

Herman Hum

03 Aug 06, 18:16

From the Matrix forum (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1214512):

The Harpoon 3 ANW 3.7.1 Beta update is now available for registered owners of H3ANW in the Members' Club (click on the MEMBERS link in the top navigation bar) and look for Registered Downloads. Please note that, according to Matrix policy, this is not yet an official release update and if you would like to try it, it is provided "as is" and with no guarantees or support.

As long as we find no problems with 3.7.1 over the next week or so, we plan to release it as an official update.

Enjoy, and thank you for supporting Matrix Games, Harpoon 3 ANW and AGSI.

Regards,

- Erik

blackdeath

05 Aug 06, 20:32

Now see this bothers me...I bought my copy a few months before the matrix version...which looks to be the same minus MP. anyhow, there is no update for my version (bought in April).

I have always bought games from Matrix and will continue to do so, however throw me a bone, so I didnt want to pay 35 to upgrade, does that mean I do not get any future support. In my opinion the matrix version should have been free since its only a upgrade to MP. Otherwise this game would have cost me 85 dollars???? Good game not that good.

SO how about a upgrade for the pre Matrix April 2006 version.

Herman Hum

05 Aug 06, 20:57

Your sentiments have been echoed in a number of different threads on various fora. Matrix appears to have made their decision and has given no indication of a change.

More than one person has asked that the Bug repairs be made free since they already PAID for them when they bought H3.6.3 expecting a fully functional game and those folks who want to play MP to pay for the upgrade. I am one of them. However, that is just an opinion. Matrix and AGSI have exercised their sovereign right to make business decisions and it doesn't look like they are going to change it.

I totally agree with you. I totally commiserate with you. However, that and $.50 will get you a cup of coffee. :cry:

blackdeath

05 Aug 06, 21:34

.50 for a cup of coffee.....now thats a deal....

To bad on their decision, I only wish there was competition for Harpoon 3 (not counting my Harpoon classic) then at least I can vote with my greenbacks.

Herman Hum

05 Aug 06, 22:51

As Mr. Spock would say,
"There are always options."

Global Combat Blue (http://www.gcblue.com/) is an open-source project and it looks very promising.

There is also Dangerous Waters and Janes Fleet Command. I have DW but have never tried JFC. They aren't Harpoon, but they are naval combat. I prefer Harpoon over DW because it allows me many more units to control than DW.

Boats

06 Aug 06, 09:02

There's a real good reason why you will pay #$35 for MP: It took an enormous amount of time and money to create code that allows you to play Harpoon3 MP. And don't blame Matrix: AGSI, who did all this work (and invested heavily of their time and money) expect to be compensated for this effort. This isn't rocket science: it's simple economics. And Herman, since you helped test for a while, you should understand the deep committment that was undertaken by Don and the rest of the AGSI team, some of whom worked on the speculation of future compensation, and many for the love of the game. Don and David did everything they could to give the people that bought the game prior to the Matrix release a price break, but you have to understand that Harpoon is a business, and not a charity. Both companies must make a profit, if you want to see Harpoon expand and hopefully one day realize the dream that was Harpoon4. And since I still have a beta version of H4, I'll tell you it was a dream, because no way in real life was that kludge ever going to run.

If you want to play another other naval sim, please feel free. But you will never play a naval sim that is as accurate, and that has been played for so long, and loved by so many enthusiasts. And, since I know how many lives were impacted by working so many hours on this game, all for the joy of keeping one of the legends of the gaming community alive, I'll tell you straight up, your $35 ain't spit. You're getting off real cheap.

Byron

blackdeath

06 Aug 06, 09:36

Boats

06 Aug 06, 09:42

Herman Hum

06 Aug 06, 19:40

Its not the money so much as it is now my product I just bought is un-supported for bugs.

I dont expect the world from the developers but how about 6 months of updates and support or a commitment to updates. Had I of known that there would no further updates I would have waited. And mind you that 35 aint spit to you, it sure is to me, 85 for one game when I could have waited and got the matrix version and then picked up another game with the 35....

Must be nice to not think twice for 85 for a "game"....I dont really care about the MP though, since I usually dont play MP unless its BF2. But I would like a little more support, or is the non matrix version dead...
The non-Matrix version is dead. There will be no further support for it. I don't need to be on AGSI staff to tell you that. However, I did get that from the AGSI President.

Actually, support for H3.6 ended when 3.6.3 was released January 2005. There has been no upgrade or any other bug fixing for it since. The fact that you bought it in 2006 just before ANW was released is moot. All support had dried up a year earlier. My definition of support does not include logging it onto a Bug List.

A huge heated discussion over this 'paid' update issue was discussed on Usenet and other fora including SZO. Mr. Heath has visited SZO and Mr. Rutins has visited and participated in the news groups. I am pretty certain that they are aware of the contentions over this issue. They have made their decision.

I don't like the decision.
I don't agree with the decision.

But I don't sit on their Boards of Directors, nor do I own stock in their companies. My opinion is just that, an opinion.

You think that you are frustrated? Just imagine the guys who tried to support H3 for years and yet they get NO consideration / discount because they bought the game a long time ago.

p.s. not everyone in this thread even owns a copy of either H3 or ANW. It's easy to say $35 for an MP upgrade is nothing when you aren't shelling out for it.

Boats

06 Aug 06, 21:08

I'll take a wild guess and say the P.S. was meant for me. No, I don't own H3, nor do I have any plans to buy it. I simply don't have the time to invest in learning a whole new system. But that is the ONLY reason why I haven't. I have this thing called a job, and another, called my family, which are #2 and #, respectively. I submit, that 1) $35 is a reasonable price for the ability to play MP in Harpoon, an ability that has not been seen in ten years (and then, you had to pay for the server), and 2) no where in my prior post did I say "$35 is nothing". What I say, is that it is a reasonable price, given what I know of the thousands of man hours invested in bringing this capability to Harpoon, and what this capability has meant for years.

And Mr. Hum...Please tell me in what computer game has the thoughts and desires of the players ever been a strong voice in the actual business decisions of the developer and the distributor? Personally, having been on the inside, I think Don listened to way more than I would have.

Boats

Herman Hum

06 Aug 06, 21:48

A list of bugs that are supposed to be fixed in this upgrade is here:

What_is_new_in_Harpoon_3_ANW#What_is_new_in_Harpoo n_3_ANW_3.7.1 (http://mediawiki.advancedgaming.biz/index.php/What_is_new_in_Harpoon_3_ANW#What_is_new_in_Harpoo n_3_ANW_3.7.1)

TonyE

06 Aug 06, 21:59

The only outlet for Harpoon of any flavor right now is Matrix. AGSI simply did not have the means for economical distribution, packaging, and promotion. It was either go the Matrix route, and keep growing Harpoon, or keep it AGSI/eSellerate and gradually whither in an even smaller niche market. Remember, really good programmers who can take decade old code and make it breathe new life aren't cheap. Don Gilman has a very significant investment in the project, one that won't bear fruit for a while yet.

Byron

Byron,
I'll buy the explanation that AGSI didn't have the resources to promote, market, package, and distribute Harpoon. AGSI truly couldn't reach a good part of the potential consumer market for the games without Matrix Games.

However, I totally disagree that really good programmers have to cost a lot of money. Bret, Frank, and I showed just a few of the things that can be done with free programming talent (though AGSI did compensate us, much appreciated but not neccessary or demanded) in the development of HC2002 (Bret, Frank) and beyond (Bret, Frank, myself, Fletcher). This doesn't mention the countless hours you spent making it possible and pushing it along, nor the uncountable hours of the database guys and testers (go Bruce!, endless patience and effort). A popular, reliable, and lively product does not require lots of coding and support dollars when the staff is treated with respect and in the case of HC, with some wicked amount of freedom to tread wherever we wanted, resulting in the many 'impossible' features that were added, as well as the more mundane spelling fixes.

The offer is still on the table to continue HC development at no cost, and there are a couple of more really neat capabilities just waiting in the wings if such an offer is ever taken up by AGSI/Matrix.

Herman Hum

07 Aug 06, 03:07

According to the reports I personally submitted, I have re-tested these behaviours and it is in my estimation that the bugs in these threads have been fixed in the Beta 3.7.1 Patch:
Bug report: ViConds evaluate erratically (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1165360)

Ships stop with illegal nav message (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1171414)

Harpoon world now rotates so that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West.

Bug Report: Ready times go wild when AI Formation Air Patrols activate (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1172237)

Bug Report: "Protect Station" ViCond switches to "On Station" ViCond (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1170322)

Bug Report: Orders disappear when side deleted (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1170335)

Bug Report: Ferry mission CTD when landing field destroyed (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1170331)

Hitting the "Add Aircraft" key more than once while using the "Edit Aircraft" function in the ScenEditor no longer opens multiple windows.

Bug Report: Edit Aircraft function does not respect Time / Country restrictions (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1174308)

Bug Report: CTD when Air Station destroyed (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1174523)

"Unit dropping sonobuoy" message is now spelled correctly

Bug report: BOL Type 65-76 ASW torpedoes come back to kill sub (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1172126)

Caveat: I have been able to repeat this problem, but only when firing very, very short ranged BOL shots. For all intents and purposes, this problem is solved.

Insertion of Installations no long have components placed over the water.

Caveat: I have been able to repeat this problem, but only very occasionally. For all intents and purposes, this problem is solved.

Herman Hum

07 Aug 06, 03:10

According to the reports I personally submitted, I have re-tested these behaviours and it is in my estimation that the behaviours in these threads have not been changed in the Beta 3.7.1 Patch:
Bug Report: Mission ignores target list (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1174530)

Bug Report: ECM nullifies BOL weapons (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1175628)

Bug Report: Plane ignores Nav Zone (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1174339)

Bug Report: Formation air patrols cancelled by Edit A/C function (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1174325)

Bug Report: Nukes won't work without AALog activated (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1187963)

Bug Report: Sensors won't turn off Intermittent in MP play (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1189406)

Bug Report: AC Stuck on Plotted mission after landing (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1174350)

Bug Report: Planes disappear from base aircraft count (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1174366)

Bug Report: Units out of range can be destroyed when part of a group (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1174551)

Bug Report: Fly off the world and game crashes (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1174536)

Bug Report: Hidden units can be destroyed without detection (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1174548)

Bug Report: Range value < 1.0nm not recognized (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1172250)[/ul]

For the purposes of simplicity, the reports in reference are from the Matrix forum. These same reports, along with test files, remain posted on StrategyZoneOnline.

FreekS

07 Aug 06, 07:42

Great to see bugs being repaired!

I just received my TWO bought H3ANW discs, one for me and one for the winner of the Matchplay challenge (Franz Koentz).

I look forward to testing some scens designed for MP but not issued yet because of some of the bugs.

Freek

Tweety

07 Aug 06, 14:14

I don't think there would be any trouble at all if AGSI and/or Matrix would just have discontinued support (as, like you said, they have effectively done last year). The point that's really driving me up the walls right now is that they completely removed all support for the game Harpoon 3 - which is, after all, different from H3:ANW. And not only that - they have left it in such a state that I for one am not able to play the game I paid for. They don't even have the common decency to reply to my emails.
Perhaps they meant it as an incentive to buy ANW. Well... I was really looking forward to MP capability in Harpoon. I've actually tried to get my friends to buy the game so they'd be all trained up in the interface when the patch would come. Maybe I would even have paid a small fee for the update - usually, the price for an add-on to a game is about $15-20, I believe. The way they've pulled it off, I just might give them another chance when TNH comes - but it better be pretty spectacular. I just reinstalled my pretty ancient copy of H2 Admiral's Edition in a DOSbox and will stick to that. That, at least, was never left in an unplayable state.

And now I'll fume for a bit and go sulk in a corner. Hope some AGSI-people read this and feel properly ashamed - or, better yet, get their heads out of their GI and do something.

Tweety

jpkoester1

07 Aug 06, 14:18

which address did you use to contact AGSI?

Cheers,
JP

Tweety

07 Aug 06, 15:25

Support@advancedgaming.biz, which IIRC was linked somewhere in the depths of that page's FAQs...

Herman Hum

07 Aug 06, 15:26

And not only that - they have left it in such a state that I for one am not able to play the game I paid for.

<< snip >>

Maybe I would even have paid a small fee for the update - usually, the price for an add-on to a game is about $15-20, I believe.

<< snip >>
Most whole heartedly agree with you. There was nothing 'wrong' or buggy with the money we all dropped on H3. That $50 appears to be just fine. Nothing defective with it, at all. :cheeky:

Now, we are being asked to pay another $50 to have 'some' bugs from the original game fixed. I evaluate it the same as you. The MP capability is worth about $15 and might have been better left as an option for us to purchase. It would really show who wants it and who doesn't.

However, as was said before, we can sulk and stammer all we like. AGSI and Matrix have made their decision.

Forum messages may make us feel better, individually, but they are not likely to incite any change. :clown:

Herman Hum

07 Aug 06, 20:01

Looks like this one got left off the list of unresolved reports:

Guns do not fire all ammo when ordered to do so (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1172158)

Herman Hum

08 Aug 06, 02:22

Jamming detected underwater

Submerged units can detect ships emitting ECM.

Sample files here (http://www.xtreme-gamer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=563472#post563472).

jpkoester1

08 Aug 06, 14:54

Support@advancedgaming.biz, which IIRC was linked somewhere in the depths of that page's FAQs...

That's surprising as I am the one that monitors that inbox. Could you try resending the email, your original one might have accidentally ended up in the SPAM folder (that account receives an ungodly amount of it as it is posted on the web numerous times). I am sorry that you haven't received a response from me, but will try my best.

Cheers,
JP

Tweety

08 Aug 06, 15:27

The email just went out again. If it went into the spam - okay, I can hardly hold that against you or AGSI. Excreta occurs. I still don't see the point in dropping the 3.6.3 downloads from the site.
And you might want to check the configuration of the spamfilter. For the personal mailbox I'd think it's okay if a few 'whites' are dropped accidentally --- for a commercial one... um... :rolleyes:

Herman Hum

08 Aug 06, 20:00

ViCond polygons don't appear

Only the polygon for the first ViCond appears even when other ViConds are selected.

This image is taken from ODb scenario, Tremors.

Boats

08 Aug 06, 20:46

Byron,
I'll buy the explanation that AGSI didn't have the resources to promote, market, package, and distribute Harpoon. AGSI truly couldn't reach a good part of the potential consumer market for the games without Matrix Games.

However, I totally disagree that really good programmers have to cost a lot of money. Bret, Frank, and I showed just a few of the things that can be done with free programming talent (though AGSI did compensate us, much appreciated but not neccessary or demanded) in the development of HC2002 (Bret, Frank) and beyond (Bret, Frank, myself, Fletcher). This doesn't mention the countless hours you spent making it possible and pushing it along, nor the uncountable hours of the database guys and testers (go Bruce!, endless patience and effort). A popular, reliable, and lively product does not require lots of coding and support dollars when the staff is treated with respect and in the case of HC, with some wicked amount of freedom to tread wherever we wanted, resulting in the many 'impossible' features that were added, as well as the more mundane spelling fixes.

The offer is still on the table to continue HC development at no cost, and there are a couple of more really neat capabilities just waiting in the wings if such an offer is ever taken up by AGSI/Matrix.

Tony, you and I both know that after H3, the next step, provided H3 prospers, is TNH. That's policy. HC Commanders edition is the last HC version. Some years down the road, we'll see the marriage of H3 and HC into TNH (or, for you other folks, the name we with tongue firmly placed in cheek The Next Harpoon). And THAT'S predicated on how well H3 does. And Don DID have to fork out of his own (limited assets people) pocket a full time coder to finish H3 off. What was valuable beyond belief, and was missing in all other versions of Harpoon save for HC 2002, was the input all the volunteers put into the work, to make it as realistic as possible within the restraints of code and money.

And no, I won't do it again. I missed a lot of time with my wife and family, time I can't get back. Life is short, and I intend to keep my focus on what's important in life.

Byron

MikMyk

08 Aug 06, 22:07

Tony, you and I both know that after H3, the next step, provided H3 prospers, is TNH. That's policy. HC Commanders edition is the last HC version. Some years down the road, we'll see the marriage of H3 and HC into TNH (or, for you other folks, the name we with tongue firmly placed in cheek The Next Harpoon). And THAT'S predicated on how well H3 does. And Don DID have to fork out of his own (limited assets people) pocket a full time coder to finish H3 off. What was valuable beyond belief, and was missing in all other versions of Harpoon save for HC 2002, was the input all the volunteers put into the work, to make it as realistic as possible within the restraints of code and money.

And no, I won't do it again. I missed a lot of time with my wife and family, time I can't get back. Life is short, and I intend to keep my focus on what's important in life.

Byron

Here Here Byron! Glad to get back to the real world myself and my what a ride it was. Up and downs but for the most part very glad to have worked with all involved (you too Tony). Don Gilman is a great guy and the coders were all class acts. I look forward to what TNH will bring in the future. Till then I will enjoy the games ! Move us forward:D

Herman Hum

08 Aug 06, 23:35

Looks like a new bug that came along with new 3.7.1 features.

Multi-Player Chat Window appears in solitaire game

After victory has been awarded to a player in solitaire mode, if the player elects to continue, a Multi-Player Chat Window opens when he selects "Yes".

Saved game file for the PlayersDB here (http://www.xtreme-gamer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=564332#post564332).

CV32

09 Aug 06, 10:25

Byron ... I totally disagree that really good programmers have to cost a lot of money. Bret, Frank, and I showed just a few of the things that can be done with free programming talent ... This doesn't mention the countless hours you spent making it possible and pushing it along, nor the uncountable hours of the database guys and testers (go Bruce!, endless patience and effort). A popular, reliable, and lively product does not require lots of coding and support dollars when the staff is treated with respect and in the case of HC, with some wicked amount of freedom to tread wherever we wanted, resulting in the many 'impossible' features that were added, as well as the more mundane spelling fixes.

Well put, Tony. The Harpoon versions that are now available exist only because of the sweat of those who were willing to go that extra mile, like Bruce. A better manager could not be found than in that fine gentleman. So much is owed to the "hands on" guys like yourself, Bruce, Bret, and others.

The offer is still on the table to continue HC development at no cost, and there are a couple of more really neat capabilities just waiting in the wings if such an offer is ever taken up by AGSI/Matrix.

This is the point that others seem to be missing. So much more could be done with HC, and easily. Oh well, no shame in being out of the loop on these possibilities; its safer that way, I suppose. :laugh: The rest of us will have to dream of what might have been. We all know TNH is AGSI's holy grail. Hope it can meet the challenge. :D

MikMyk

15 Aug 06, 13:57

Well put, Tony. The Harpoon versions that are now available exist only because of the sweat of those who were willing to go that extra mile, like Bruce. A better manager could not be found than in that fine gentleman. So much is owed to the "hands on" guys like yourself, Bruce, Bret, and others.

Everybody around deserve the credit. Teabagging one of the former managers in hopes of pissing Byron off is kinda par for the course though;) Byron, Bruce, everybody did an excellent job. Probably time to move on.

This is the point that others seem to be missing. So much more could be done with HC, and easily. Oh well, no shame in being out of the loop on these possibilities; its safer that way, I suppose. :laugh: The rest of us will have to dream of what might have been. We all know TNH is AGSI's holy grail. Hope it can meet the challenge. :D

IIRC that was what was pitched that last time. Its 2006 and a new game to replace both designs make sense. Move on.

CV32

16 Aug 06, 08:36

Everybody around deserve the credit. Teabagging one of the former managers in hopes of pissing Byron off is kinda par for the course though;) Byron, Bruce, everybody did an excellent job. Probably time to move on.

Only someone like you would find insult in a compliment given to someone else, Myky. :rolleyes:

IIRC that was what was pitched that last time. Its 2006 and a new game to replace both designs make sense. Move on.

You obviously have no idea what has been discussed in terms of further improvements, so the usual suggestion that you give is to avoid commenting, no ? ;)

Herman Hum

16 Aug 06, 17:05

You obviously have no idea what has been discussed in terms of further improvements, so the usual suggestion that you give is to avoid commenting, no ? ;)
You have got to be kidding me.... :laugh:

And the absence of proof has stopped folks from posting other statements as fact in this forum?

I think that they were born in the wrong century. Some folks would have been just perfectly suited to run around and shout, "The world is Flat! The world is Flat!" :clown:

Tweety

16 Aug 06, 17:55

Some folks would have been just perfectly suited to run around and shout, "The world is Flat! The world is Flat!"

I'd opt for doughnut-shaped.

Herman Hum

16 Aug 06, 18:11

I'd opt for doughnut-shaped.
Mmmmm.... doughnuts ....... mmmmmmm

Herman Hum

20 Aug 06, 16:24

New AGSI announcement (http://forum.advancedgaming.biz/viewtopic.php?p=3461#3461)

Looks like ANY patch is going to be delayed for WEEKS. [:(]

With the discovery of:

Bug Report: CTD when torpedo fired (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1230528)

Bug Report: Game ends abruptly (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1229624)

I think that ANW is virtually unplayable as either Multi-player and Solitaire since:

Bug Report: Mission ignores target list (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1174530)

virtually nullifies solitaire play.

It is only my personal opinion, but I recommend that folks NOT install the Beta 3.7.1 patch if they want to try multi-player. At least 3.7.0 allows bare minimal MP play. :(