Tall hedges in cmak

[Poor Old Spike]

I'm a CMAK noob, only began playing it a few weeks ago and see there are fascinating things called "tall hedges" in it which require new tactics.
I just created a June 44 cmak "Normandy bocage" map (below) to use in a future QB, chock-full of tall hedges.
I ran tests to check out t-hedges and came up with the following facts, have I got it right or is there anything I've overlooked or need to know?

1 - They block LOS unless an enemy is skulking about 10 metres on the other side of it,then you can see him.
But if he's further away, the only way you can see him is if you get close up to the t-hedge yourself (within about 5 metres of it) so you can peek over.

2 -Infantry actually in the t-hedge get no concealment from it, the enemy can spot them as easily as if they were in open ground.

3 - Only full-tracked vehs can cross a t-hedge

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/CMbocage1.jpg

[Palantir]

In CMBO only Allied tanks can cross tall hedges, I can't remember if that changed in AK or not?

[timu24]

Just a thought. Weren't the tall hedges to divide farmers fields? Maybe you should add some more farmland? It looks cool. :smoke:
Tim

[KG_Jag]

Kerry, as I recall, the brocage of CMBO (to which I believe you are referring) is different from CMAK's tall hedges.

[Poor Old Spike]

Aargh thanks Palantir, I just tried to run 25 assorted German tanks, halftracks and wheels through a tall hedge but NONE would go through, they simply re-plotted their movement to go looking for a gap !
Then to doublecheck, I switched them all for an equivalent load of Brit and American tanks, halftracks and wheels,the full-tracks went through the tall-hedge fine, but the halftracks and wheels wouldn't..
Conclusion - Allied Armour obviously has the Cullin hedgerow device.
The Germans are therefore at a tactical disadvantage not being able to get through the bocage, should be quite a challenge to be the German player in a tall-hedge-heavy map..
PS - In my created bocage map I've put a few "gates" (fence icons) in t-hedges to give Jerry some gaps to get through, real hedges had them so I suppose its realistic ;)
And thanks Timu, I'll fill a few fields with soft ground to simulate boggy ploughed fields, plus a few vineyards (orchards), and some brush (growing crops)..
KGJag, I suppose tall hedges simulate a reasonably good "bocage", they're all we've got anyway ;)

M5 FITTED WITH CULLIN HEDGEROW DEVICE -
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/CMcullin.jpg

[timu24]

I have a question. (It seems I have a lot of those :p) How did you get the general map of France and England in your overall view? Did you get a uber version of CMAK? :shock:

Here is a are some cool pictures of the Normandy region during the allied invasion. There are some ariel maps. :D http://www.ceris-normandie.com/archivesnormandie/PhotosHD/

Hope you like them,
Tim

[Poor Old Spike]

Cool stuff Timu :)
The euro map is a mod, I can't remember which mod site I got it from but I'll send you it in an email attachment if sending other peoples mods is allowed?

[Iron Mike USMC]

Just a thought. Weren't the tall hedges to divide farmers fields? Maybe you should add some more farmland? It looks cool. :smoke:
Tim

The Bocage hedgerows were a result of Norman/French tradition of dividing lands between the sons. In England, to prevent the diminishing property that would result, was to give the land to the oldest sons. The result of that was the number of sons who went into the clergy and the military, as well as becoming merchants, and other types of businessmen.

The height and depth of the bocage was the result of centuries of working the lands. To make the bocage more accurate, the hedges should be a higher elevation than the fields surrounded. Also, it was common for roads to follow between two fields, and therefore be elevated between two hedges. Depending on the season, consider that farmers rotated crops. That can be done within one field, or amongst several. So, have two-thirds of a farmer's fields with crops, the third fallow.

Consider that many land owners forsook farming for other endeavors, so some fields could easily be overgrown, or even re-forested. Also, every field should have at least one access point, usually at the corners, and at road intersections.

[British Tommy]

Good post Mike! :)
Well worth keeping in mind when building a Normandy map.

Old Spiker!:D
Now there's a talent I didn't know you had! Nice map mate :)

[Redwolf]

BTW, you can pick up the book by the guy who came up with this.

Death Traps: The Survival of an American Armored Division in World War II (Mass Market Paperback)
by Belton Y. Cooper

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0891418148.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0891418148/sr=1-1/qid=1154540640/ref=sr_1_1/102-8774416-2900142?ie=UTF8&s=books)

A great read for anyone messing with this.

[timu24]

Thanks for the explanation Mike. :)

That looks like a cool book Redwolf. :D
Tim

[John Osborne]

Are there any CMAK maps made to show bocage in the normandy battles? Would like to see because working on a Panzer Lehr battle around St-Lo.

John

[Poor Old Spike]

Good article here with maps, photos, plus plenty of tactical diagrams like the one below -
http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/doubler/doubler.asp
Busting the Bocage:
American Combined
Arms Operations
in France
6 June--31 July 1944

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/CMbocdef1.jpg

[timu24]

Nice find POS. :D More reading material. lol

Hey POS do you have that link to the CMAK mod? I am interested in making a ETO map. You can either PM it to me or email me.
Thanks,
Tim

[John Osborne]

Nice find POS. :D More reading material. lol

Hey POS do you have that link to the CMAK mod? I am interested in making a ETO map. You can either PM it to me or email me.
Thanks,
Tim
Guys, could I also get the link as well. I'm working on a scenario that Panzer Lehr fought around St-Lo.

Thanks,
John

[Poor Old Spike]

Hey doods I can't see a way for me to attach the ETO mod to IM's or site-mails, so how do I get it to you?

[British Tommy]

You can always email it or send him a link where he can download it himself:)

[John Osborne]

Hey doods I can't see a way for me to attach the ETO mod to IM's or site-mails, so how do I get it to you?
I just shoot you a message to send it to me by email. Thanks POS.

[Redwolf]

Are there any CMAK maps made to show bocage in the normandy battles? Would like to see because working on a Panzer Lehr battle around St-Lo.


CMAK does not have the "bocage" terrain tile that CMBO had.

[Poor Old Spike]

I've just updated my Tall Hedges intelligence after a new test revealed that no guns can enter or cross them. (Although they can see through if they're up close)
Mortars and HMG's CAN enter and cross.
Infantry are seriously slowed when entering/ crossing.

Here's the updated piece incorporating the new info -

TALL HEDGES

1 - They block LOS unless an enemy is skulking about 10 metres on the other side of it,then you can see him.
But if he's further away, the only way you can see him is if you get close up to the t-hedge yourself (within about 5 metres of it) so you can peek over.

2 -Infantry actually in the t-hedge get no concealment from it, the enemy can spot them as easily as if they were in open ground.

3 - Only full-tracked ALLIED vehs can cross a t-hedge, Germans CAN'T..

4 - Guns can't enter or cross a t-hedge, but they can see through it if up close within 5 m of it

5 - Mortars and HMG's CAN enter and cross t-hedges

6 -Infantry are seriously slowed down when entering/ crossing.

[Iron Mike USMC]

I was looking for some aerial photos and maps, to try my hand at recreating the bocage on a CMAK map. I came across some info in the Encyclopædia Britannica online, http://www.britannica.com/dday/art-40593. It is a decent Quicktime movie of a Sherman going through a hedgerow, with and without the Rhinocerous attachment.

There are a few other images that are decent basic starting points for other research.

[Colonel Talvela]

spike, not all allied full tracked vehicles can go through tall hedges.