Let's go clubbing

[Poor Old Spike]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/CMclubbing1.jpg



http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/CMclubbing2.jpg



http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/CMclubbing3.jpg



http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/CMclubbing4.jpg

[Bertram]

Could this be 205 getting his handed to him???????

[timu24]

I wonder what the ride would be like in the panzer. :p I would probably would bail just because of the jolty ride. lol
Tim

[Poor Old Spike]

Further to my stunning "Clubbing" screenshots, it might be a good idea to discuss a few tactical aspects of the action for noobs to learn from..

1 - Notice how my 6 x Shermans are tight together in a "sixpack", because that's the only way to operate tanks in CM, as tight, cohesive groups of 3 or more tanks each.
The biggest mistake people make in CM is to operate their tanks in dribs and drabs one or two at a time, and they get gobbled up.
Think simple maths. To defeat a sixpack, the enemy must confront them with a sixpack of his own consisting of equivalent tanks (say Pz IV-longs) to have at least a 50-50 chance of wiping them out.
Biggest pack I ever had was 15 x T-34's in one game, but that's an extreme example, as usually several smaller groups of 3/ 4 /5/ 6 tanks are easier to handle without tripping over each other.
Important - by all means operate a few tanks individually as "lone snipers" sneaking around the flanks etc but even then a pair would be better..

2 - Let's analyse the maths aspect further - In a one tank against one tank situation its 50-50 who'll live or die, because let's say the hit chance is 33%. That means each tank only has a 1 in 3 chance of hitting with its first shot, its basically a lottery. But suppose one guy has 2 tanks, the odds go up dramatically in his favour to better than 50-50 that one of them will hit the enemy with its first shot. And if he has 3 tanks, its a 99% chance that one of them will get the enemy tank in the first exchange of fire..
Remember, play the odds like that by pitting a higher number of tanks against the enemy tank(s) and you'll usually come out on top.

3 - Ubertanks - the "wolfpack" maths still usually works against a heavy monster even if your tanks are inferior and can't penetrate it, but try to get up close.
For example my Shermans peppered the Jaddpanther at close range and the best they could manage was "partial penetrations", but that's good enough to cause damage and crew casualties and make the crew start to get jittery and think about abandoning if they take any more partials and/or gun hits or immobing hits.
(In the event it was my "lone sniper" M10 that got the JPanth by penetrating him in the side)..

4 - In the clubbing game, my opponent bought about 6 halftracks, I don't know why, because they're useless in frontline battles and I can't understand why people waste their cash on them, I've killed at least 5 of his so far..
In a 3000pt M.E. my typical force is always something like 12 x veteran medium tanks, 6 x veteran infantry platoons and a mixed bag of about a dozen assorted snipers/ HMG's/ light flak gun/ tankhunt teams/ AT-rifles/ light mortars/ shreks etc.
Sometimes I buy a plane and artillery barrage, sometimes not..

BELOW -An 8-pack of Shermans. (Later I detached 2 to go reinforce a pack elsewhere)
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/CMtn2.jpg


BELOW -Later in the game my grip on the flags is still vice-like. The enemy captured another flag out of shot but I didn't seriously contest it because 2 flags out of 3'll do for me. "He who defends everything defends nothing" - Rommel
Notice below how he had a good road to the flags but he never used it..
"The engine of a tank is as much a weapon as its gun" -Guderian
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/CMtn2b.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/aaaCMPOSWPC.jpg

[timu24]

I agree and disagree with point one. :p

I agree that tanks should work in teams to provide effective fire. However if you get them too concentrated and one of the lead tanks is hit and catches on fire, your tanks will lose their line of sight. Other than that I think it is good advice. :)
Tim

[Poor Old Spike]

Timu quote - I agree that tanks should work in teams to provide effective fire. However if you get them too concentrated and one of the lead tanks is hit and catches on fire, your tanks will lose their line of sight
--------------------------------------------------------



Yes mate there are several drawbacks from operating tanks tight, including the one you mention, that's why I deployed my pack of Shermans in two columns side-by-side, so that if that if either of the leaders burns, the other column will still be able to return fire down the road..
If it was a wider road I'd have deployed 3 wide.
And if it was a wide hilltop or ridge I'd have deployed them in a tight line along it, shoulder to shoulder..
Other drawbacks of a tight bunch are that one bomb or heavy arty shell landing in the middle of them could kill/ disable half or more of them, its happened to me occasionally..
But I always accept the risks and always play tight because the advantages outweigh the disadvantages by far..
"Never fear to fight tight, let the fear be your enemies" - POS

[KGPanzerschrecK]

I mean no disrespect to you POS, but the way you place your Tanks & Tommies, ive noticed this as a common theme in almost all of your screen shots, the bunching thats is, your just asking to be raped by some Artillery. Has that ever happened to you?

[Poor Old Spike]

KGSchreck quote - the bunching thats is, your just asking to be raped by some Artillery. Has that ever happened to you?
---------------------------------------------


No mate because if I see and hear a solitary heavy-calibre (105mm or higher) spotting round impacting nearby I slam into gear and take off off before the main barrage arrives next turn :)
But if its lesser calibre I usually ride out the storm, it depends how badly I want to hold the position..
Incidentally in most of my screenshots the magnification is 3 or 4 to give an easier-to-see pic and it makes the tanks look more tight than they really are. At "reality" mag they're about a tanks length and width apart at least..
Oh and a tight bunch sometimes gets hurt by a fighter-bomber, it happens to me now and again but I ride it out. However if there are more than one enemy planes persistently dropping eggs and firing whooshy rockets I'll usually shake out into a looser dispersed bunch in the interests of survival, then tighten up again when he runs out of ammo..

[2054172]

But I did not use the road due to the fact that the flags were on the reverse slope from me. And I used the HT's to try and get the infantry to the front quicker.NOOB:p

All in all, I do not believe that the tight tank pattern was doctrine in the real war was it?:smoke:

Also POS great game I don't mind loosing to someone of your gaming ability:o ... think you got a few years on me:whlchr: . I still think your stuck on your self a bit to much:vsign: . Love :love: the return rate and would have you another go again.:freak:

[Poor Old Spike]

205 quote -I did not use the road due to the fact that the flags were on the reverse slope from me
POS reply- So what?


205 quote - And I used the HT's to try and get the infantry to the front quicker.
POS reply - I never - but never - waste cash on htracks, I just pile my inf aboard tanks, hit "Go" and they jump off and grab the flagpoles on turn 2 or 3..
The rest of the infantry arrive panting on foot a few turns later..


205 quote - I do not believe that the tight tank pattern was doctrine in the real war.
POS reply - Is this real war?


205 quote - I still think your stuck on your self a bit to much
POS reply - Yes, so were Patton and Monty and Liberace

Anyway you can get your revenge in a re-match after this one

[2054172]

205 quote -I did not use the road due to the fact that the flags were on the reverse slope from me
POS reply- So what?


205 quote - And I used the HT's to try and get the infantry to the front quicker.
POS reply - I never - but never - waste cash on htracks, I just pile my inf aboard tanks, hit "Go" and they jump off and grab the flagpoles on turn 2 or 3..
The rest of the infantry arrive panting on foot a few turns later..
205 quote - I do not believe that the tight tank pattern was doctrine in the real war.
POS reply - Is this real war?
205 quote - I still think your stuck on your self a bit to much
POS reply - Yes, so were Patton and Monty and Liberace
Anyway you can get your revenge in a re-match after this one

Well old chum your on as soon as this one is done. Yes and they all found out that pride comes before the fall.;) :smoke:

[Lurker]

Hey 2054172, how did you get your JP in that position? TDs like JPs are best kept at a distance where they can shrug off most US/Brit rounds. I learned the hard way never to get my TDs in too close where they often get in their own way.

[Poor Old Spike]

205 quote - Well old chum your on as soon as this one is done. Yes and they all found out that pride comes before the fall
---------------------------------------------


As far as I can tell mate, you only have one tank, that Jagdpanther which I clobbered. I think you need more than one tank to win a war ;)
Incidentally, yes two of the flags favour me because they're on my side of slopes, thats just your bad luck, I've got the same problem against Red Devil and Taktik and am having to advance over the crest into a hail of fire on their side of the hill but that's the way the cookie crumbles, the good and bad luck evens out eventually and one third of maps favour you, another third favour your opponent, and the final third favour nobody in particular..

[TacCovert4]

Spike, I agree with your doctrine, but would try to have a little bit more dispertion than 6 inches. Most of my battles are desert maps, where your tanks can't hide because of the dust churned up by their movement. Placing tanks into tight wolfpacks while running through dead ground allows me to hide my true numbers until the point of impact. But when the crap is about to hit the fan, I do try to manuever my tankers into line with about 50-150 feet of space, to protect them against equally concentrated AT weapons, and arty or airstrikes. But on roads, I do the same thing, the 2 by 2.

As for halftracks:

When your enemy probably won't have overwhelming numbers of tanks, and infantry is a more viable concern, halftracks are great. Rush infantry to the front, covered by your own tanks, drop them off, then retreat about 150 meters to the rear to avoid infantry borne AT weapons. Sometimes I'll use the same halftrack to do move 2 or three units to the front. Once your infantry is in the fight, the HT becomes an armored machine gun that can move forward with your troops to provide cover, fires, and moral support.

[Poor Old Spike]

Tac Covert quote - Spike, I agree with your doctrine, but would try to have a little bit more dispertion than 6 inches. Most of my battles are desert maps, where your tanks can't hide because of the dust churned up by their movement. Placing tanks into tight wolfpacks while running through dead ground allows me to hide my true numbers until the point of impact. But when the crap is about to hit the fan, I do try to manuever my tankers into line with about 50-150 feet of space, to protect them against equally concentrated AT weapons, and arty or airstrikes. But on roads, I do the same thing, the 2 by 2.

POS response - Ah, but the dusty desert is a whole new ball game so I bow to your greater experience because I don't play in the desert. I tried it a few times but didn't like it because the dust gets in the way too much, and also most maps are barren and featureless, resulting in boring longrange shootouts.
I prefer the chessboard of a heavily-terrained Russia/ Italy map ;)

Tac Covert goes on - As for halftracks:
When your enemy probably won't have overwhelming numbers of tanks, and infantry is a more viable concern, halftracks are great...

POS response - Yes in inf-heavy games halftracks are good mobile machine-guns until the enemies AT-rifles carve them up ;)

[Colonel Talvela]

As far as I can tell mate, you only have one tank, that Jagdpanther which I clobbered. I think you need more than one tank to win a war ;)


Not really.

[Poor Old Spike]

On D-Day the British stormed ashore with a full range of specialised tanks, - Flails, Carpetlayers, Ditchfillers,Ramp carriers, Bridgelayers, Swimmers etc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobart's_Funnies
and the Brits offered some to the Americans before D-Day.
"We'll take all you can give us" said Ike, but he was overuled by Gen Bradley who said it'd take too long to train US crews to handle them, so all he took were a few Sherman DD swimmers, nearly all of which sank on D-Day through misuse.
So the Yanks had to hit Omaha Beach without any tanks at all..

[Colonel Talvela]

actually i was speaking to CM

[KGPanzerschrecK]

so all he took were a few Sherman DD swimmers, nearly all of which sank on D-Day through misuse.
So the Yanks had to hit Omaha Beach without any tanks at all..

What exactly do you mean by misuse?

[Poor Old Spike]

KGSchreck quote - What exactly do you mean by misuse?
-----------------------------------------------------



The brass misused the DD Shermans by ordering the launch even though the heavy seas, tides and currents off Omaha made it very risky..
There was a Brit TV docu about it last year called "D-Day The Untold Story"
To sum up, 29 DD Shermans were launched off Omaha but 27 sank, only 2 got ashore.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/archaeology/excavations_techniques/marine_dday_underwater_04.shtml
Excerpt from the website -
The tanks launched at approximately 6,000 yards as intended, regardless of sea conditions.
The tanks launched and turned into the current to head for their landing area. This is the most significant factor in their sinking, as it would expose the long side of the tank to a 'beam sea', meaning that the force of the waves would strike the weakest, most flexible, portion of the floatation skirt, causing it to buckle and ultimately fail..
The two tanks that made it to shore had put their 'stern' to the waves to mitigate the impact of the sea, and reduce the chance of swamping. Interviews with survivors revealed that the commanders of the two DD-Tanks that made it to shore had considerable small-boat experience on rivers and at sea, and would have known the danger of turning 'beam-on' to the seas.

[KGPanzerschrecK]

Ok i just wanted to make sure you got your info from the right source. You wouldnt belive the BS ive heard from misinformed people about that one incident. People have claimed it was the crews faults and not where they were droped off at combined with the distance traveled, the current and the tides working against them as they had to drive back to where they were supposed to be.