Questions on Making ATF Vehicles

[John Osborne]

I would like to use this thread for asking questions and posting examples. I have just used the Tile Piece Utility using the lav-25 chassis and turret. And it worked great :D

Deltapooh do you have a save palette colors for the vehicles?

Also instead of inventing the wheel again :D

What I think that I will do is get a copy of the M1A2 chassis or the T-72 tank and make the changes to show the chassis of a Leopard 1 tank. Do the same with the turret. Is this the best way of doing it?

I’m going to tackle the Leopard 1 and 2 along with the Marder. I should have something to show my progress tomorrow, I hope :nuts:

[Deltapooh]

I use a small set of saved patterns I sampled from the ATF vehicles. I basically use the select tool and adjust brightness option to do all my work. There might be a more effective method, but I have yet to find it. It gives me more control over colors than the drawing tool. If you have Photoshop 7.01. If you want I can send you the set of Patterns I use.

The basic colors are as follows (RGB)

Desert 143, 125, 53
Camo 63, 65, 0

Enemy Primary 13, 14, 0
Camo 51, 51, 102

I also use black. Brightness is adjusted by + or - 25, 50, 75 to better define details.

Modifying the vehicles in ATF is how I started out. Now I use them to help determine dimensions. I then scale a top-down view of the vehicle I want to add to the appropriate size, using the unmask sharpen tool. This allows me to define details.

However, this is not always necessary. As you correctly assumed, vehicles can appear quite similar to one another from the top. In some cases, they are distinguishable only by one or two small features.

I look forward to seeing your work. I'm condifent your vehicles will look great. :D

[John Osborne]

Yes, please send to me the patterns that you use.

I use Photoshop 5.0 and Paintshop Pro 6.0. I use Paintshop more then Photoshop though. After I down about three cups of coffee and play a TacOps netgame. I will tackle my first attempt at making a Leopard 1 tank.

I do have another question, its on the Schutzenpanzer Marder-1A3. It has a turret that houses the automatic cannon and a turret that has the antitank weapon Milan.

How can that be done if there is two turrets? Or just work on just one, the main weapon?

One last question for now :nuts: and that is, Can there be a fratricide incident between two different vehicles on the same side? ie between, lets say, German vehicle and American vehicle in ATF?

[Deltapooh]

I'm not certain the patterns will work in Photoshop 5.x. They were made in 7.01. Anyhow, you can find them below.

I do have another question, its on the Schutzenpanzer Marder-1A3. It has a turret that houses the automatic cannon and a turret that has the antitank weapon Milan.

How can that be done if there is two turrets? Or just work on just one, the main weapon?

The answer should be yes. Add the first turret attribute to the vehicle. Then in the edit page for that turret, click on add next to the attribute window, and select the turret attribute again.

No one has tried this though, so it might create problems.

One last question for now :nuts: and that is, Can there be a fratricide incident between two different vehicles on the same side? ie between, lets say, German vehicle and American vehicle in ATF?

The answer is yes I believe. If you order a friendly vehicle to suppress an unknown vehicle, it should fire on it, even if it's neutral. However, I'm not sure whether or not it will kill the vehicle because the pk is set to 0.

On the other hand, you could increase pk numbers if you set the scenario to involve a brief interaction with neutral vehicles. Then the player would have to employ fire control measures such as field of fire, and hold fire to prevent fratricide.

It's been a long time since I've killed one of my own vehicles. I believe it was the result of using artillery too close to friendly force positions. :o

[Pat Proctor]

To answer you questions:

1. Two Turrets. You COULD do it. But, unless both are concentric (i.e. turn on the same axis), I would not. In fact, I would not anyway. Turrets mostly affect view orientation. I would only build one turret (the primary "view direction", such as the orientation the tank commander will have) and make the roll the other turret's size and weapons into the chassis itself.

2. You can not KILL a friendly or neutral vehicle with direct fire. You CAN suppress a neutral vehicle with direct fire. You CAN kill a friendly or neutral vehicle with indirect fire.

[John Osborne]

You can not KILL a friendly or neutral vehicle with direct fire. You CAN suppress a neutral vehicle with direct fire. You CAN kill a friendly or neutral vehicle with indirect fire.

Is that because of the ATF engine?

It sure would be something if in the heat of battle when you have NATO units by your side in the thick of battle and you spot what you think is an enemy T90 and you fire and it turns out that you just wax one of the friendly vehicle.

Also Deltapooh, I'm assuming again :nuts: That your not doing any German vehicles but only doing American vehicles? Is that correct? Is there anybody else doing vehicles?

Is there a need to do other countrys vehicles?

I'm taking upon my self to do the German vehicles. here is a list on the vehicles:

Leopard 1/2,
Marder-1,
Jaguar tank destroyer,
Wiesel-1,
Condor APC,
Fuchs,
Spahpanzer Luchs,
PzH 2000 SP,155mm,

I hope by this weekend I will have the Leopard 1 done and will post the results :D

[kbluck]

I do have another question, its on the Schutzenpanzer Marder-1A3. It has a turret that houses the automatic cannon and a turret that has the antitank weapon Milan.

A little clarification on terminology.

All Marders have only one turret. Some Marders have a Milan ATGM launcher mounted on a pintle to the right of the commander's hatch. In game terms, the 20mm cannon and 7.62mm machine gun are coaxial to the turret facing, while the ATGM is mounted on the turret but is not coaxial.

There is a fuzzy line dividing the definitions of turret, cupola, and gunshield. Turrets and cupolas are revolving armored housings containing at least one weapon. It's usually considered a turret if it is relatively large and mounts a primary piece of weaponry for the platform and usually fully protects any personnel who operate the weapons, while a cupola is generally smaller, houses only secondary weapons, and usually does not fully enclose any occupant. A gunshield only protects against fire from one direction, usually the front. You can find exceptions for all of these definitions, however.

In game terms, turrets and cupolas are indistinguishable, but it is usually not profitable to define real-life cupolas as turrets unless the vehicle has no turret at all; for example, the M113 APC essentially has a particularly small cupola for the commander mounting the .50 cal MG. I would go ahead and define that as the vehicle's "turret", since the commander is the primary spotter for the vehicle. I wouldn't bother for the M60 tank's rather generous cupola mounted on top of the turret; the commander is generally going to be looking the same direction as the turret anyway.

In the end, feel free to ignore the technical definitions and do whatever produces the most pleasing game result. For example, while I would not define the Marder's Milan as a turret in the ATF DB, I would set up the HMMWV-mounted M220 TOW launcher as a turret, since the TOW launcher is that vehicle's primary weapon as well as it's primary vision device. On the Marder, by contrast, the Milan is strictly a secondary weapon, literally a tacked-on afterthought, and the platform has better vision devices inside the real turret.

One sticky issue for the Marder is the rear-mounted machine gun. That would be hull-mounted and not coaxial, but I'm still not sure how to go about restricting a weapon to a rear-firing arc that crosses the 3200-mil line.

--- Kevin

[John Osborne]

One sticky issue for the Marder is the rear-mounted machine gun. That would be hull-mounted and not coaxial, but I'm still not sure how to go about restricting a weapon to a rear-firing arc that crosses the 3200-mil line.--- Kevin

How Kevin,

After I asked the question and looked at the Jane's book on Tanks and Armored Vehicles and turn to the Marder 1A3. That was what I ment to ask was the auxilliary tower weapon that is located at the rear of the APC :crosseye: I see that the MILAN is attach to the main turret just like the Bradleys TOWs ATGM are. However some of the Marders have them and some of them don't.

So should there be a tower weapon, MG 7.62mm as well as the main turret?

Thanks

[John Osborne]

Deltapooh, I couldn't open the patterns that you posted in Photoshop nor Paintshop Pro. Could you just send to me the RGB code for the patterns?

Thanks,

[kbluck]

I see that the MILAN is attach to the main turret just like the Bradleys TOWs ATGM are. However some of the Marders have them and some of them don't.

They're not really very similar, actually. The M2's TOW launcher is coaxial and integrated with the vehicle's main sighting system, so the gunner selects it with a switch and controls the missile from his normal station inside the turret. To traverse the TOW, the entire turret needs to be slewed. The Marder's launcher is essentially a standard dismount Milan bolted to the commander's hatch pintle ring. To fire, the commander needs to open his hatch, stand up with head and arms exposed, traverse the launcher by hand, and track the missile with the Milan's sight unit. He can fire the Milan in a completely different direction than the turret is facing, so it is not coaxial.

So should there be a tower weapon, MG 7.62mm as well as the main turret?

The MG should certainly be included. It shouldn't be a turret in game terms, just a non-coaxial weapon on the hull. However, I am uncertain how to restrict it to a rear-firing arc where the arc crosses the 3200-mil line. Should you make the left limit positive and the right limit negative? I haven't experimented with it yet. Technically, this MG should only work when there are dismounts loaded in the back since they're the ones controlling it, but oh well.

--- Kevin

[Deltapooh]

The basic colors are as follows (RGB)

Desert 143, 125, 53
Camo 63, 65, 0

Enemy Primary 13, 14, 0
Camo 51, 51, 102

Glass: 198, 198, 198

You might want to diddle with the colors. I settled on the Desert/Camo color to help the vehicles blend in both desert woodland settings. You can obtain color samples by "info" palette in Photoshop. You can select colors from vehicles in ATF and save them as patterns.