Combat Rounds

[General Staff]

I'm seeing a number of players come to grief over this, where they get only one round and therefore cannot consolidate their positions (dig in, blow bridges etc...) before turn end.

Firstly if you fire Coastal Arty with their 0MPs at Naval Units anytime before your last round, your turn will almost certainly end. Likewise, digging in arty so it has 0MPs and then trying to Direct Fire it.

Also, I'm seeing some players try and crack eggs with a sledgehammer. You don't need the entire weight of the 21st Panzer Division to force a few glider-borne paras off a bridge, unless it's a spectator sport and you've invited all your friends in the Division to see how it's done. Besides a lot of 21 Pz is desperately needed elsewhere.

It is hard to judge what you need to take a hex or achieve a mission. Over time you get a feel for this. Also as you come to understand the combat rounds system you realize it's better to use Limited Attacks at Minimize Losses most of the time. And with a broken down piece of a unit to minimize casualties. This has a number of benefits:

a) It will only use one round.
b) The detailed Combat Report will detail enemy composition, allowing you to adjust for the second round. This is crucial, a little like flying a plane- make a small correction, view results, adjust, continue.
c) When used in combination with Direct Arty, these tactics, especially against infantry or softer targets, are usually the best way to go. Over time and several rounds of this, the arty will undig units and force them into the open. Each round will sap 10% of enemy supply. If you're down to your last rounds and really need the hex launch an all-out assault at the end of your turn.

2 suggestions to test in hotseat mode- read the Kasserine 43 Tutorial with these aspects (rounds and arty use) specifically in mind. Practice your ideas in Arracourt 44- it's got all the pieces: arty, infantry and it's small. This is also good to see how rounds work because most units have good MP allowances.

Hope this helps.

[Heldenkaiser]

Also, I'm seeing some players try and crack eggs with a sledgehammer. You don't need the entire weight of the 21st Panzer Division to force a few glider-borne paras off a bridge, unless it's a spectator sport and you've invited all your friends in the Division to see how it's done.

:D :o :rolleyes:

[Veers]

Ok, GS didn't tuch on the ROounds Used/Combats Planned dialog box. Anyone know what it is? WHat it does?

Well, it's a handy little tool, the best new tool introduced with TOAW III.
Now, I have a line of units, adjacent to the enemy, and none of them have moved or retreated and I tell them to attack. Well, I then scroll my mouse over the 'bolted panel' below all the buttons. Tada, it tells me I have planned 00%, or 10% depending (don't about it, same thing if it is 00% or 10%). So, that's great, but I feel that isn't going to be enough to win the day, but, hey I have the 22nd Pz Regt. behind me, so I grab them, move them up and set them up to attack. I scroll over the 'bolted panel' and, oh no! I have planned 50% combat, when I have 100% of my turn left. How did I do that? Well, I brought up the Panzers, usign half their movement points, therefore the fight will start 5 tactical rounds(out of 10) into my turn. If it succeeds and does not go into extra rounds(a thing we can't determine, but you will get a feel for later) I will still use 50% of my turn and be SOL.

So, I left-click on one of my 22nd Pz Regt's Battalions and then right-click on the hex I am attacking, then I click on 'Plan Attack'. Wham, I have a new window opened. The 'Attack Planning' Window. So I can see that it says I have all the units atatcking. Well, then I look at the top and several gold squares are there(5 of them, indicating the fight will start at combat round 5). I shake my head and think, "That's no good." So, I'm thinking the Panzers are causing that (of course I'm right) so I go to them anc click them, one by one until all the Panzers are off. Tada, only one square shows, meanign the fight will start at the beginning of my turn. As long as it doesn't go into extra innings(good idea would be to use limited attack, minimise losses, as GS sugested) I will have only used one out of nine combat rounds and I'll have 9 left to play with.

Obviously, that is an easy example, for you guys, you could be setting up several attacks. When you are done planning your attacks, scroll over and see how much of your turn your planned combats are used. If it's more than 10% or 20%. Go back through your attacks, see which one is causing that, cancel that atatck and then role the dice. Chances are you'll have 80-90% of your turn left.

Any questions (even ones you think might be dumb, like 'Where is this bolted panel you speak of, master?') ask 'em.

[General Staff]

One tip:

In a scenario like this where you are not doing much attacking I tend to use a good old calculator or- for folks who grew up before them weaned on times tables- often in my head.

If you know you've got 80% of your turn left and you've got a unit with 33MP allowance, you know it has to have 26 or 27MPs remaining out of its original 33 for it to be used in an attack without wasting rounds.

I did put in a suggestion at Matrix to add a %age movement remaining # to the 'M' toggle switch (currently attack/defence factors and MPs remaining) which would allow players to see these #s at a glance.

[Heldenkaiser]

Does simply moving a unit - without adding it to any combat - contribute in any way to taking away from my turn percentage left? Thanks. :rolleyes:

[Telumar]

Does simply moving a unit - without adding it to any combat - contribute in any way to taking away from my turn percentage left? Thanks. :rolleyes:

Nein, it doesn't

[General Staff]

Does simply moving a unit - without adding it to any combat - contribute in any way to taking away from my turn percentage left? Thanks. :rolleyes:
Just to emphasize this. You could have one unit adjacent to an enemy unit with its full movement allowance left. You plan to attack and will go in with 100% of your turn remaining. You could move every other one of your units their full movement allowances so they all have 0 MPs remaining and your single attack would still go in at 100% turn remaining. If it takes one round and you go in again it goes in at 90%....

[Heldenkaiser]

Thank you Gents. :)

[Heldenkaiser]

Can I ask for another explanation? I don't quite seem to be able to grasp how artillery works in this combat rounds system.

If I add dug-in artillery in direct support of a combat--
a. it becomes mobile?
b. it uses up a percentage of its MPs?
c. does the amount depend on whether it uses ML, LL or IL?
d. it is not available again on subsequent combat rounds?
e. it can be dug in again after participating in the combat?

This is still very confusing to me. :rolleyes:

[Veers]

Can I ask for another explanation? I don't quite seem to be able to grasp how artillery works in this combat rounds system.

If I add dug-in artillery in direct support of a combat--
a. it becomes mobile?
b. it uses up a percentage of its MPs?
c. does the amount depend on whether it uses ML, LL or IL?
d. it is not available again on subsequent combat rounds?
e. it can be dug in again after participating in the combat?

This is still very confusing to me. :rolleyes:
a.Yes.
b. Whether the Arty is being used or not, it will still 'expend' X% of its MP where X is equal to how many rounds the combat used up.
c. The amount can depend on these factors. A unit that is set on minimize losses is more likely to break off of combat sooner, using less rounds. A units set on Ignore Losses will likely stay in the combat longer, using more rounds. Keep in mind the Maximum Rounds Per Battle for this scenario, not all scenarios, is set to 3, so you can use a max of three rounds per combat. This does not mean, however, that you can attack with a guy with 1 MP out of 33 and still expect to have any of your turn left.
d. This depends on if you dug the arty in this turn of last. If you dug it in this turn and then used it to directly support an attack, tough luck. It is no longer able to move and, as I think of it, it would have had no MP and used up your turn (This I am not 100% sure of, as it apears there is a bug? allowing this?). If you dug it in last turn, and used it to directly support and assault, it would expend X MP and still be available to support other attacks/dig in.
e. Read d.

I hope this clears some of it up. If it doesn't feel free to ask for clarification on any points.

[General Staff]

Veers is dead right. I'd only add:

c. If in Direct Support mode, it uses 1, 2 or 3 rounds depending on loss setting if used by itself- i.e. no ground attack at all. And subject to MRPB rating.
d. Veers I think really means round here, not turn. But no arty will support anything on mobile. To get support it can be on TR, LR or dug in. Of course on TR and LR it might move on your opponent's turn, sometimes in ways you wouldn't want to see. Really don't dig in if you want Direct Arty Support for the 100% Support until you're done attacking, or bite the bullet and stick with 50% Support in Indirect mode knowing it should help later and in your opponent's turn.

It's hard and took me a while to get it. I tried explaining this in my Kasserine 43 article and would refer folks there.

[Veers]

Veers is dead right. I'd only add:

c. If in Direct Support mode, it uses 1, 2 or 3 rounds depending on loss setting if used by itself- i.e. no ground attack at all. And subject to MRPB rating.
d. Veers I think really means round here, not turn. But no arty will support anything on mobile. To get support it can be on TR, LR or dug in. Of course on TR and LR it might move on your opponent's turn, sometimes in ways you wouldn't want to see. Really don't dig in if you want Direct Arty Support for the 100% Support until you're done attacking, or bite the bullet and stick with 50% Support in Indirect mode knowing it should help later and in your opponent's turn.

It's hard and took me a while to get it. I tried explaining this in my Kasserine 43 article and would refer folks there.
Goos points and a good artivle. I know, I read it.

[Heldenkaiser]

Goos points and a good artivle. I know, I read it.

Ditto, ditto. :)

Thank you, Gentlemen. :smoke:

[Heldenkaiser]

In my first turn as the Allies in my new game with John, I think I finally cracked the combat rounds mystery. I managed, I believe 7-8, maybe could have had 9 (I am coming back to this below), with a simple rule - don't allow ANY golden squares in the attack planning window (and of course, use only ML and no direct fire by support units). That's it - every attack should only show grey squares, which means they don't use additional time beyond that to which the turn has already advanced. Any golden square is a wasted 10% of the turn. Quite simple actually, but took me until now to figure out. :rolleyes:

This way, with multiple combat rounds, repeated LA/ML can really eat up enemy units piece by piece, until suddenly they vaporize. In my first game, my opponent didn't get the Merderet bridges for several turns. With repeated LA/ML I got them in T1.

What made me wonder in my turn is this .... I didn't actually count the combat rounds, but I am almost certain is that I got the 90%, 80%, 70% messages right down to 20% ... however, unless I am dreaming I believe I saw at least the 50% and the 20% message *twice*. In other words, I may actually have had 9 or 10 combat rounds. I just didn't count, but I remember I was surprised two times to see the same percentage again. Is it possible, or am I seeing things? :surprise:

[Telumar]

What made me wonder in my turn is this .... I didn't actually count the combat rounds, but I am almost certain is that I got the 90%, 80%, 70% messages right down to 20% ... however, unless I am dreaming I believe I saw at least the 50% and the 20% message *twice*. In other words, I may actually have had 9 or 10 combat rounds. I just didn't count, but I remember I was surprised two times to see the same percentage again. Is it possible, or am I seeing things? :surprise:

See here for an answer: http://www.xtreme-gamer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=572464&postcount=3

[Heldenkaiser]

A lot of things going on in this game that I am far from really having grasped. :rolleyes:

[Heldenkaiser]

1) I cannot always repeat the same performance, i.e. using just 10% of the turn with just LA/ML. Usually I can get 7 to 9 rounds, but in my last turn I just managed 60%, 30%, 20%, without doing anything differently. I am practically certain I didn't mess it up with an unintended LL or IL attack, because I check every single combat with the Attack Planner to make sure it doesn't add golden squares. So there must be something else ... do my opponent's loss tolerance settings matter, if I use only ML? More importantly, do the loss tolerance settings of my own supporting artillery matter, if I *don't* use it for direct fire? Because I usually have arty, HQs and such on LL.

2) Is there any difference between LA and normal attack, other than that with LA the attacking unit won't advance into the defending hex if it becomes vacated? IOW, will a unit on normal attack, but ML, use only 10% of the turn all the same, or will it keep attacking to take the hex? I think this should be precluded by the ML setting, but I would like to have a confirmation. :rolleyes:

Thanks! :)

[General Staff]

1) I cannot always repeat the same performance, i.e. using just 10% of the turn with just LA/ML. Usually I can get 7 to 9 rounds, but in my last turn I just managed 60%, 30%, 20%, without doing anything differently. I am practically certain I didn't mess it up with an unintended LL or IL attack, because I check every single combat with the Attack Planner to make sure it doesn't add golden squares. So there must be something else ... do my opponent's loss tolerance settings matter, if I use only ML? More importantly, do the loss tolerance settings of my own supporting artillery matter, if I *don't* use it for direct fire? Because I usually have arty, HQs and such on LL.

2) Is there any difference between LA and normal attack, other than that with LA the attacking unit won't advance into the defending hex if it becomes vacated? IOW, will a unit on normal attack, but ML, use only 10% of the turn all the same, or will it keep attacking to take the hex? I think this should be precluded by the ML setting, but I would like to have a confirmation. :rolleyes:

Thanks! :)
1) Check on the effects of shock in the manual, which you have for the first couple of turns as Allies- it tends to allow you more rounds, or more precisely less time used per round. Loss settings for arty indirectly or in direct support of a ground attack don't matter- they only matter when arty is firing alone, in which case ML=1, LL=2, IL=3 rounds.

2) 1/2 attack factor, 1/2 losses and no advance. ML usually but not always will mean 1 round, depending on what's attacking and what's defending, though I'd check manual for precision or post at Matrix for a maybe more definitive answer.

Hope this helps.

[Heldenkaiser]

I also found that part about 1/2-1/2 in LA in the manual, meanwhile. Sorry for sometimes asking dumb questions. :shy: