German Strategy

[General Staff]

Moved from Axis Team Roll Call Thread

I'm going to concentrate on the German reinforcements esp. armor/artillery - I don't think we can throw them back into the sea- or do we try? :smoke:
Just starting to mull a few general things over though game hasn't arrived yet. On Axis reinforcements, always a good idea and see where they can get to with enough movement points (you only need 1 left) to dig in. Good idea to look at Allied reinforcements too, maybe even print out or make a note of them all to refer too. I'd suggest play a few games hotseat to also see what Allies are capable of versus JAMiAM's 'baseline' turn though that I think was a pretty lucky turn.

Also a good idea to think of this from Allied perspective- what would you go for in their position? Which objectives would you look to take to secure a game victory? You need to read the scenario briefing carefully to understand what you've got to take or keep to win or draw (or God forbid lose).

The new supply point in Cherbourg makes a difference here I think. As JAMiAM pointed out when adding it, it makes the game more historical since the Germans held out here for quite some time to withhold the port from the Allies for use in landing troops and supplies.

Before this was added a good Allied strategy was to bomb the rail bridges at 27,38 say (i.e. as far south as possible- check the %ages for success one at a time moving up from here and put weather on because cloud affects odds) and 41,31 (this also has the benefit that the Germans can't rail reinforcements into Carentan until they fix the bridge, and every engineering unit on this duty is not going to be available to help dig fortifications). So the Carentan peninsula is cut off from rail supply though it will still get some by road. Then the US would try to race across the peninsula to totally cut off supplies, reinforcements and replacements- to somewhere like Portbail (14,28) via St. Saveur (22,23)- this also helped a lot in getting you out of those awful hedgerows. Then strangle and crush as you race for Cherbourg. A feasible objective.

But now with a supply point in Cherbourg as Allies I'd tend to ignore this approach. Forget Cherbourg with its new supply point and go for the other objectives and just screen the peninsula ASAP to prevent units getting out to help in the defence of these other objectives. Try to blow the road and rail bridges at 9,17, 15,20 and 19,20. That should slow any Germans trying to get out and if you see this you'll know that's what Allies are probably up to. But I'll have to check this out when I get the game.

I agree with Telumar on driving Allies into the sea. Totally impractical and you'll almost certainly lose with all that heavy artillery out at sea. Once you're out of the range of those guns things get a little easier.

[General Staff]

2WIN is a very tactical game. The Allied strategy is fairly historical and obvious- the Germans just have to try and delay it. A few pointers, though you might find some moot points here if you're up against a very good Allied first turn:

1) 1 of the few, if only, items on your side is time. Only 12 or 13 turns. So delay is crucial.
2) Try and keep Carentan as long as possible. Try and retake Pegasus Bridge if practical and also hold as long as possible to keep CW behind the Orne River.
3) Urban and bocage hexes are best, marsh a little less so, preferably behind rivers. Think what's best against tanks.
4) Try and keep your rail net open from supply sources to help with your supply situation and to move reinforcements in quickly.
5) Cherbourg. Let's see where they go with this, but with it now a supply point it's stronger than it used to be and it also was a stretch to take. They'll likely all play from the same plan so let's see how this develops. As Allies I'd tend for it to drop down on my priority list and make more efforts south. If that's the case you maybe can pull some units out of the peninsula to help elsewhere.
6) Hang on to the hexes that increase Allied supply as long as possible. 1 or 2 % may not look much, but over 12 turns and many units it adds up.
7) East of Caen, use the Dives River and the woods slightly west between it and Pegasus Bridge as you try to flush out the paras. That goes whether you've retaken the bridge or not. Further north and north-west of Caen try and form a line on the ridges. Break down units (see tactics) and try to be constructing a second line as you defend the first.
8) Towards Arromanches/Creuilly use river lines and the ridges/hills.
9) From Arromanches on to Isigny, use bocage/urban.
10) Utah. If you can blow bridge at 39,28 immediately. Keep the one near Isigny for east-west traffic until in imminent danger then blow. Likewise 37,31. Blow bridges at Carentan if you can. Defend north on the Douve River.
Blow what you can over the Merderet River and try and defend it. Blow 28,26. Elsewhere here, try and form a line and dig into urban or hedgerows. Counterattacks here would depend upon dispositions and local conditions, probably only against Paras near St Saveur and then only if there was a good opportunity- attacking in Bocage is dangerous. Keep St Saveur as long as possible.
11) North of Utah. Try and form a line in Bocage and Urban. Maybe Quineville-Montebourg and then try and get a second line started in the hills behind.
12) Cherbourg. As above depends whether they're going for it or a feint. Use bocage, urban, rivers, hills, marsh.
13) Try and keep road junctions at least in your ZOC to make them pay more in MPs to use.
14) Try and keep them in the bocage as long as possible. Once out they move much faster.
15) Keep the Foret de Cerigny as long as possible. Aside from VPs for you if you can hold it (doubtful) it controls roads to St Lo and Torigni, 2 Allied objectives.
16) Fight very hard for Bayeux, preferably by holding the riddges to NE and bocage N. It's a natural corridor out, not to mnetion a major transport hub for you and your reinforcements.
17) Caen. Try and keep the rail bridge open so supplies and reinforcements can get through. Again like Bayeux only more important, fight very hard for this, preferably on ridge lines north. If you didn't recapture Pegasus Bridge, he'll probably come out you here between the Orne-Dives River gap. You might need some SS thugs here.
18) Casualties count towards victory, so always look for overstacking with a red target density indicator. Or orange. Preferably infantry, not dug in and in the open. Use direct arty with a broken down unit on limited attack minimize losses mode.
19) Careful with rounds and how they work. Make sure anything participating in an attack is using the same percent of its turn to do so or has a good reason for variance. Any Qs on this post in tactics- it's probably the hardest concept to grasp in TOAW.
20) Again, don't forget, a turn's delay for the Allies is c10% of their time to complete. Delay, delay, delay.

Good Luck! Hals und Beimbrach!

[dkatz]

9) Careful with rounds and how they work. Make sure anything participating in an attack is using the same percent of its turn to do so or has a good reason for variance. Any Qs on this post in tactics- it's probably the hardest concept to grasp in TOAW.

I would like an insight to exactly how this works and how best to manage it and how those little lights work in the plan an attack box.....

[General Staff]

9) Careful with rounds and how they work. Make sure anything participating in an attack is using the same percent of its turn to do so or has a good reason for variance. Any Qs on this post in tactics- it's probably the hardest concept to grasp in TOAW.

I would like an insight to exactly how this works and how best to manage it and how those little lights work in the plan an attack box.....
Have you read the articles here, particularly the one by Steve Knowlton which has good info IIRC on rounds and certainly supply:
http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42681

Also Bob Cross' article: http://www.warfarehq.com/articles/toaw_articles/toaw_combat_phases.shtml , though it may need updating for the combat dialogue.

A couple of other thoughts: Section 13 of the manual covers this. Also the Kasserine 43 tutorial gives you some insight.

A quick example: If you have 2 infantry units each with 10 MPs and you want them to attack an enemy unit. To get into position IU1 uses 5 MPs, IU 2 uses 3 MPs and the attacks are set up. Your attack is going to use up at least 50% of your turn, because the unit that moved the most (5 MPs) to get into position has used 50% of its movement allowance (5/10) which equates to 50 percent of a turn. Arty adds a twist depending on whether it's used in Direct Fire mode (in which case it works as the units above) or in TR or LR or D, E, or F mode without moving. Indirect fire carries no penalties as above.

[Hank2]

Does this mean:

if you've moved a unit with 10MPs and it uses 5MPs then you establish an attack with these units; it uses up half your turn; ... that's the given
... then can you move other units up to but not more than 1/2 their MPs and set up attacks; you will still have 1/2 your turn left after the resolution phase ??

... Or if the above conditions are in play ... and you subsequently need to move some more units that expend 80% of their MP's then set up their attacks, you'll have 20% of your turn left after resolution ??

Sorry for the discombobulated questions but this is one thing about TOAW I don't have a good grip on yet ... and I've read some stuff on this subject.

thanks
Hank

[General Staff]

Does this mean:

if you've moved a unit with 10MPs and it uses 5MPs then you establish an attack with these units; it uses up half your turn; ... that's the given
... then can you move other units up to but not more than 1/2 their MPs and set up attacks; you will still have 1/2 your turn left after the resolution phase ??

... Or if the above conditions are in play ... and you subsequently need to move some more units that expend 80% of their MP's then set up their attacks, you'll have 20% of your turn left after resolution ??
Yes and yes. And both tops depending how many rounds combat takes. If it takes 2 rounds (each using 10% of your turn) in the 1st example you'll be left with 30% and in the 2nd your turn will end.

So the trick is get everyone in position. Then set up and execute those attacks that are going to use up half your turn. Execute. Then wait until you've 80% of your turn expended before setting up the unit that moved 8/10 MPs to attack.

Think of it as a 10 inch ruler with a slider bar on top (anyone remember slide rules?). You can move all your units all their movement allowances if you wish at the immediate start of your turn and in case where you just want to move and dig in this can be good practice since it's only combat rounds we're talking of here. As you set up each attack the slider bar moves across to represent the amount of MPs you've used versus that unit's total MP allowance. So a unit set up for attack with 2 MPs used of 10 will move your slider bar to the 2 inch mark. A unit set up for attack with 5 MPs used of 10 will move your slider bar to the 5 inch mark.

But once you click the resolve button you go in at the highest slider mark- 5 inches and 1/2 your turn is shot. What you need to do is set up your 2/10 attacks and the slider only goes to 2 inches- only 20% of your turn gone. Then round by round set up those going in with 30% MPs expended, 40% and on upwards. Bear in mind the MRPB rating of the scenario- that's maximum number of rounds per battle. Depending on scenario, some battles can last more rounds than expected and you can find your 20% attacks taking 3 rounds leaving you with (2+3)/10 of your turn gone- or you're down to 50% of your turn left. So if you know a scenario has an MRPB rating of 3, you might want to set up attacks ranging from 20% MPs to 50% MPs expended. Or just 20% hoping you'll get out at 1 round- if it works you can then launch your 30% attacks, if not well you'll be going in at 40% or 50% turn expended.

Hope this helps. Keep asking. And the more specific your questions the easier to answer and the sooner I think you'll get an understanding of this. Then we can add in artillery support and shock effects to further complicate things.;)

[General Staff]

Also see: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1191391

[Hank2]

Thanks!! ...

... and unfortunately I remember slide rules and I used to have several of them ... telling my age here. ... my wife sold them at garage sales without my permission ... :-( ... $@%$ &$#@

[Heldenkaiser]

My problem with this "getting the maximum number of rounds out of your turn" is this--I absolutely understand the concept; in theory. Only when I play my turn, I hardly ever seem to have the choice of using only those units who will burn the same amount of my turn. Often an attack simply requires units that have already moved quite a distance lest I'll attack with hopeless odds ... it works in the beginning--some opening attacks that leave me with 80% or so--, but then when my units really start moving and attacking for real, everyone seems to add 5-6 blocks to the ruler and the second half of my turn is usually wasted in a single round of combat ... :rolleyes:

[General Staff]

My problem with this "getting the maximum number of rounds out of your turn" is this--I absolutely understand the concept; in theory. Only when I play my turn, I hardly ever seem to have the choice of using only those units who will burn the same amount of my turn.
Have you tried running step-by-step through the Kasserine 43 tutorial? This speaks to this issue, in the sense of some units having to wait for others to get there before attacking, and different attacks starting off at different times (i.e. rounds). If you have, post back, and I'll see what else I can do.

[Heinz57]

The tutorials and war college posts will help on getting a better feel for how to increase rounds of attacks. Review them a bit more, but in easier terms - don't attack with every unit that can attack. At first attack only with units having 80+ percent of their movement. This should allow a second round of attacks the majority of the time. In the second round, attack only with units having about 50% of their turn remaining. If you get a third round, feel free to attack with any units having movement remaining.

As you go along, you will get a better feel for how this works and be able to get 3 or more rounds of combat more frequently. First concentrate on getting two and take note of what you did differently, then try to get three.

[Veers]

The tutorials and war college posts will help on getting a better feel for how to increase rounds of attacks. Review them a bit more, but in easier terms - don't attack with every unit that can attack. At first attack only with units having 80+ percent of their movement. This should allow a second round of attacks the majority of the time. In the second round, attack only with units having about 50% of their turn remaining. If you get a third round, feel free to attack with any units having movement remaining.

As you go along, you will get a better feel for how this works and be able to get 3 or more rounds of combat more frequently. First concentrate on getting two and take note of what you did differently, then try to get three.
Very good way to go about it for the complete newbies. kudos for a good explanation, Dabbs.

[Heldenkaiser]

Have you tried running step-by-step through the Kasserine 43 tutorial?

No, I did the Korea and the hypothetical tutorial, then jumped into a PBEM game. But I am still planning to do the other two tutorials.

But, as I said, I think I understand the concept, I just never seem to have enough units with a high proportion of their movement remaining to get decent odds in the combats that just have to take place. :rolleyes:

[General Staff]

But, as I said, I think I understand the concept, I just never seem to have enough units with a high proportion of their movement remaining to get decent odds in the combats that just have to take place. :rolleyes:
It's a Catch-22. Either go in with the heavier casualties immediately or wait until you get better odds later. A little like real warfare.

One other option, especially if you have arty in range. Try a limited attack at minimize losses with a broken down piece of a unit, using the arty in Direct Fire mode on ignore losses to wear it down while you wait for the other units. Make sure the arty's MP expenditure as a % of its whole is the same as that of the unit attacking or it will take you down time-wise too.

[Hank2]

The tutorials and war college posts will help on getting a better feel for how to increase rounds of attacks. Review them a bit more, but in easier terms - don't attack with every unit that can attack. At first attack only with units having 80+ percent of their movement. This should allow a second round of attacks the majority of the time. In the second round, attack only with units having about 50% of their turn remaining. If you get a third round, feel free to attack with any units having movement remaining.

As you go along, you will get a better feel for how this works and be able to get 3 or more rounds of combat more frequently. First concentrate on getting two and take note of what you did differently, then try to get three.

Exxccellent!! ... I played around with this last night and I think the light went on ... even though nobody was home at the time. :nuts:

I use the attack planning dialog box and you can see how units with low MP's effect the phases for that turn - very nice now that I know what to look for.
I seem to recall somebody saying they don't use the Attack Planning dialog. Is this a tool for the newbies to use and the experienced players don't? I can't see how it wouldn't help anybody while planning attacks.

I know I'll keep using it.

thanks and keep up the good work ... by the way, I got my first move from Mangus2000 so I'll be making my move tonight most likely.
Any final words of advice before I start?

Hank

[General Staff]

Exxccellent!! ... I played around with this last night and I think the light went on ... even though nobody was home at the time. :nuts:

I use the attack planning dialog box and you can see how units with low MP's effect the phases for that turn - very nice now that I know what to look for.
I seem to recall somebody saying they don't use the Attack Planning dialog. Is this a tool for the newbies to use and the experienced players don't? I can't see how it wouldn't help anybody while planning attacks.

I know I'll keep using it.

thanks and keep up the good work ... by the way, I got my first move from Mangus2000 so I'll be making my move tonight most likely.
Any final words of advice before I start?

Hank
If you post the PBL file as an attachment (Zipped) I'm sure some of us would love to get a heads up on what the other team are going to try.

Otherwise keep Carentan as long as possible and retake Pegasus Bridge if practical. Look for targets of opportunity (infantry, density indicator on, in open, not dug in is ideal baseline and work from there) to hit with broken down units on Limited Attack- Minimize Losses with Direct Arty Fire supporting.

[Hank2]

Can I email it to you and have you post it up for others to review?

I've never attached anything to my posts here. I'd be afraid I miight do it wrong and then I would be stood up in front of a firing squad for incompetence and accidentally letting sensitive materials fall into the hands of the enemy. ... a serious offense it would be

I'll check back for your reply and proceed accordingly.

[Heinz57]

The Attack Planning Dialong - isn't just for newbies, ha. It is of considerable value in very large scenarios like FiTE, Drang Noch Osten and others. It's entirely possible for 100 or more attacks to be conducted in one round...sometimes transpiring after 4-5 hours of moving units. So the Planner is very useful to make sure that you haven't messed up somewhere along the way or inadvertantly assigned something to direct support with less movement points... Of course trying to find which one...well, that is a separate matter.

As you get experienced with the system, your start-up analysis of your forces will give you a pretty good idea of how closely you need to watch your formation cooperation levels. That's the biggest killer on turn-burn presuming everything else is at it should be. You get a good feel for what you can do and generally what you can expect. There's almost always some fanatical NKVD battalion or engineer that puts up a rugged defense, so things don't always go as planned.

If nothing else, you learn the value of fractions really fast. Let's see...60% of the turn left, my recon unit starts with 30 MP and now has 16 MP...it's not quite 60% and it's more than 50%...the planner is showing it is being treated as 60%...but to be safe, I'll put it on minimize losses (a 10% of turn attack) and hope for the best.

It takes a bit of time, but more and more you will use the planner less and less.

As for strategy for your first turn - maybe give us a quick overview of what your opponent accomplished - # of hexes advanced from the beach on Omaha, Gold, Juno and Sword...the situation near Pegasus Bridge and how he used the 82nd/101st Airborne?

[fei_hung]

As for strategy for your first turn - maybe give us a quick overview of what your opponent accomplished - # of hexes advanced from the beach on Omaha, Gold, Juno and Sword...the situation near Pegasus Bridge and how he used the 82nd/101st Airborne?

Do I attached the PBL file after I have done my move or before ?

Cheers

[General Staff]

Can I email it to you and have you post it up for others to review?

I've never attached anything to my posts here. I'd be afraid I miight do it wrong and then I would be stood up in front of a firing squad for incompetence and accidentally letting sensitive materials fall into the hands of the enemy. ... a serious offense it would be

I'll check back for your reply and proceed accordingly.
When you click either 'Quote' or 'Post Reply' at the top of the text window towards the right you'll see a paperclip symbol. Click on this and you can then click browse to look through your hard drive to find the file, then click upload. Wait until you see done in the bottom left status bar of the window. Then close the window. That's all there is too it, other than you MUST ZIP the file first.

If you can't or don't know how to ZIP just send me an e-mail and I'll reply with my e-mail address for you to send me the file. Then I'll post it for you.

[General Staff]

Do I attached the PBL file after I have done my move or before?
You need to ZIP it to attach it as the forum only takes certain file types. Not PBL. And before you've made your moves.

Also it's good practice to save a copy of each turn both before you move and when you've completed your turn. These save as SAL files are are great for post-match review and writing AARs, not to mention eternal monuments to your greatest triumphs (and worst disasters). And sending to other players to get advice/review.

Hope this helps.

[Hank2]

I hope I did that right.

It should be attached for all Axis members to see. This is the first players first move (Mangus2000). So I have done nothing to it yet.

I'm assuming anyone who wants to look at this will have to put in the "secret" axis password indicated in the "gearing up" thread.

later
hank

[Hank2]

Hope I did that right. Seems so.

I'd hate to find out later the Allies know all our secrets.

later
Hank

[General Staff]

I seem to recall somebody saying they don't use the Attack Planning dialog. Is this a tool for the newbies to use and the experienced players don't? I can't see how it wouldn't help anybody while planning attacks.
I calculate manually. The only time I use the APD is when I've assigned all my arty to attacks and I want to make sure there's a fair distribution of support assets, especially if there's a lot of them. I used to find it made me make stupid mistakes. So now I generally move everything I can at start, then set up Round 1+ attacks, then Round 2+ etc...

But certainly when I first started I used it all the time, and I'd recommend this. Then I moved to using it AND manually checking until I was finally at the TOAW age of around 1 or 2 weened off it.

I believe it's been significantly improved in TOAWIII and I'll now probably take another look.

[Heinz57]

Yep, worked fine. How would you assess the situation, first? Being neutral, I can't advise at this point - but facilitate discussion - and encourage other new players of TOAW on your team to look at your turn, too.

[fei_hung]

I suggest that each player start their own thread on their game and attached the PBL/SAL file turn by turn ie

starting a new thread - Mangus2000 vs Hank2

Turn 1 - Allied

Attached the PBL ( before making your moves )

Discussion / Review /Advice

Turn 1 - Axis

Attached the SAL ( After making your moves )

For results / review

then turn 2 and so on

Cheers

[General Staff]

I suggest that each player start their own thread on their game and attached the PBL/SAL file turn by turn.
Yes, seconded. Great idea.

[General Staff]

Hank2 and folks. I set your game up in its own thread with comments. I don't want to 'run' people's games for them, but will answer specific Qs and hand out advice, subject to the proviso that I am not and cannot be held responsible for the consequences.

I will specifically look at turns for instances where I can illustrate particular techniques as I've done here. Plus some general strategy tips though in this case just confined to the CW beaches.

[Hank2]

Is it possible for player-1 to win this scenario on his first move?

It appears in a couple of games if the 1st player advances and controls certain objectives that the 2nd player has no chance of recovering.

Is this a possibility.

hank

oh I forgot to mention: I hate cleaning gutters ... honey do ... yes dear!

[General Staff]

Is it possible for player-1 to win this scenario on his first move?

No, absolutely not. MP Allowances alone would make it impossible.

[Heinz57]

Games are very rarely won on the basis of one turn, one error or stroke of luck - but as the result of series of these things. Starting out in a hard situation can bring you to make better use of your assets, pay closer attention to his movements and development of your strategy. You know the Allied objectives, but the Allies don't know what you will defend with, how, or the degree to which you will press counteroffensives. What matters is the Victory Points at the end of the game.