Half-Track Tests

[mangus2000]

Just wondering what peoples favourite HTs are. In my game against The Hooded One i chose to try and storm the flags with HTs using both M5s and SPWs(its a mirror match). THe M5s seem to have faired a bit better than the SPWs and they also have 50cal MGs but they just don't look as good as the SPW:smoke:
Are the M5s generally more durable than the SPW?

[Neilm85uk]

As you know from bitter experience I favour the German HT's but only when fitted with the 75mm gun :rifle:

[KGPanzerschrecK]

If you are talking just about the Troop ferrying versions, M5 vrs. 250/1, i have to give the nod to M5 in firepower and the nod the the 250/1 in survivability. At least as far as my experience with them goes. MG-42's can make mincemeat outta M5's very quickly. I have found that the sloped armour on the 250/1 holds up to .30 cal HMG fire fairly well. .50 cal HMG is a different story though.

[Poor Old Spike]

TEST REPORT
Amazingly the M5's 50 cal couldn't hurt the 251 because of its excellent armour, whereas the 251's lighter MG cut the paper-thin M5's to pieces. Also, the M5 gunner is completely exposed, whereas the 251 gunner has a neat little gunshield.
One of the M5's caught fire, proving MG fire does have the capability of doing that against light armour..

[KGPanzerschrecK]

Interesting tests, but rarely in CM with you have them all lined up like ducks in a shooing gallery facing each other. Try the same test with all of them facing away from each other. Then try it with one sides flank exposed to the other. Also the MG's in question mentioned before in the posts above were/did not have to be specifically mounted in other Halftracks or at least thats what i meant, i dont know about the others. Ambushing a Haltrack under 100 or even better yet 50 meters with a hidden Infantry version of a .50 cal is the death of a 251/1.

The problem with the American M5 in WWII was that its armor was just on the verge of being effective. German MG bullets could punch through one side of the armor but didnt have the steam to go out the other side. So what you had was a Sausage Grinder. The bullets would riccochet around inside til they hit something solid to stop them like equipment or humans. I have ready several greusome accounts about this phenomenom in a few books over the years and ever heard it mentioned on the history channel a few times by ETO and PTO Vets.

[Poor Old Spike]

All my tests posted on forums serve simply as basic reference points, nothing more, as there are so many variables that it'd be impossible to test out every permutation before doomsday.
All we can therefore conclude from the halftrack test is that even the mighty 50cal can't really hurt a 251 frontally at 400 metres, whereas the lighter MG of the 251 can hurt an M5 real bad..

[Lurker]

The only thing I like better about the m5 is it's ammo load.

[mangus2000]

I'm suprised that the 50cal can't get through the 250 myself, quite shocked if fact:surprise: :surprise: . the 50cal is usually a bit of a monster as far as i've been concerned!

[Lurker]

It depends on the range. 50cal flank shots on HTs and ACs tears them up pretty well, but I think a frontal shot on sloped armor needs to be fairly close.

[Poor Old Spike]

ANOTHER M5's v 251's TEST (no need for another pic) - This time the test began with the 251's all presenting their rears to the M5's,still at 400m range, and again the 251's completely dominated, killing 5x M5's by the end of the turn with no losses to themselves!
It took the 251's a good 30 secs to pivot in place to bring their MG's to bear, but as soon as they opened up, the M5's began going down like ninepins..
CONCLUSION - Although the rear and side armour of the 251's is only 8mm (same as the M5), it's very well sloped to the point of making the vehicle virtually impenetrable in CM to MG fire, unlike the vertical slabs of the boxy M5.

PS AND YET ANOTHER TEST - Range only 25 metres this time, with the M5's pouring fire into the 251's rear again.
Result 2x 251's killed, no M5 losses.
Interestingly the 251's never fired at all, they simply ran forward to put distance between them and the M5's, obviously their crews feared the pointblank 50cals ..
Also, the M5's all reversed to open the range, no doubt they didn't want to risk the 251's pivoting and letting them have it..
CONCLUSION -50 cals can kill 251's with pointblank rear shots

[Lurker]

Interesting tests POS. Good thing not everyone is lazy like me. :halo:
In CMBO I recall 251s and ACs going down like dominoes to .50's

[KGPanzerschrecK]

I have no doubt what so ever that your tests turned out like that POS. But the fact remains the same that in "In game" conditions i havent had the same experiences. .50 cals cut up German HT's and AC's by my experience. I guess old John Browning's guns dont like being operated by our British cousins across the pond, LOL. :nuts: :D


LURKER SAID - The only thing I like better about the m5 is it's ammo load.

Yeah man, you gotta love 250 rounds of .50 caliber Death! :smoke:

[Poor Old Spike]

Yes CM is full of unfathomable little mysteries..
In the last test against the 251's rears at pointblank, all 10 of the M5's reversed while firing, so obviously even the crews knew their 50cals weren't so hot..
I'll look into it further and try some ground-based 50cals etc..
At the moment my provisional conclusion is that the M5's gunner is nervous because of his exposed position while manning the gun, causing loss of accuracy due to trembling hands.
But his German counterpart has a snug little gunshield to snuggle down behind and deliver accurate fire..

[Lurker]

Some of the M-series have two MGs, one 50 and one 30. Maybe they're firing the 30 for some reason? I've seen AGs with HC refuse to fire it at enemy tanks; instead firing HE until they went under. (stupid crews! :D ).

[Poor Old Spike]

Yes I suppose unpredictable behaviour makes the pixelmen a little more human and in need of a psychiatrist like the rest of us, so I suppose we should be glad CM is so realistic in that respect..
The test M5's only had one MG, a 50-cal, check the stats in my pretty pics..
Incidentally the 50-cal is in the topmost of 4 slots in the stats bar along the bottom of the M5 pic, whereas the 251's MG is in the 3rd slot down, so maybe the top slot is the "exposed AA position" slot which could explain the gunners nervousness.
GUNNER - "Doctor, I experience terrible trembling fear when I'm manning the exposed 50-cal"
SHRINK - "That's understandable, you're perfectly sane. That'll be 500 dollars, pay my receptionist on the way out,goodbye, NEXT"..

[KGPanzerschrecK]

Just out of curiosity, im going to try some of your tests with American M3's. :)

[KGPanzerschrecK]

LOL, same results. Pretty much what i expected. I thought maybe they might of stuck a different gun on the Tommies version, you never know. It was worth the try. Ill give the M3A1 a test now.

[KGPanzerschrecK]

This is a whole new ballgame. If you want to mess with German HT's, go with M3A1's.

http://kg.frozenwebhost.com/Panzerschreck/HT%20Test.jpg

About 10 seconds after the opening bell the Americans lost 4 tracks to the German's i figured here we go again. Then the Krauts started going down one by one. A couple paniced off of the map and when the game Auto-Ceasefired, The American's had one perfect track, and one shocked, vrs. one shocked German track.

The M3A1 has a Cupola for the gunner and im sure that makes a difference. I know it has an extra .30 cal MG but it is mounted facing the rear IRL and i dont know if thats reflected in the game or not.

All in all a huge difference between the two American vehicles.

[Poor Old Spike]

Congratulations KGschreck you've solved the case :)
Yes the armoured cupola shield makes all the difference, protecting the 50-cal gunner and encouraging him to deliver accurate lethal fire, I just ran another 10 vs 10 frontal armour face-off 400-metre test, but this time I switched the shield-less M5's for shielded M5A1's and they killed 9x 251's over 4 turns, for only 1x M5A1 loss!
(The last 251 reversed off the map, as did 2x M5A1's)
Conclusion - the shielded models M3A1 and M5A1 are the only way to go.
What a difference an 'A' makes..

[Lurker]

Good stuff to know when picking. :)

[Poor Old Spike]

I notice some of my stunning tac screenshots have disappeared from this forum and am trying to work out why, its not Gamesquads fault, I posted most of them about a year or so ago, so I can only assume that when I did some spring-cleaning in my host account I accidentally deleted them by mistake because I forgot they were here duh, sorry about that..
The only crumb of comfort I can give is to say that they've disappeared from some other CM club forums too, i'll be more careful in future..

[Redwolf]

The strength of the American halftracks is due to a bug, or rather engine limitation.

The halftrack with both .30cal and .50cal MGs just gets 250 points worth of ammo, simulating both, but it ends up giving the vehicle so much ammo that it can shoot all game, with .50cal effect. Compared to what the tanks carry this is a humongous amount and nowhere close to realistic . To carry that much .50cal ammo in real life you'd have to fill up the whole vehicle, not to mention the gun would melt 5 times over.

[TacCovert4]

I doubt the barrel would melt, those things are notoriously durable. Not to mention that the ROF for MGs in CM is roughly equivalent to the rapid rate of fire, not the cyclic. The barrel would be hot as crap after 30 minutes of sustained rapid rate firing, but I think it would hold up.

[KG_AirborneBob]

Here's a row of M-5A's headed to clear out a hamlet.....

[Lurker]

Here's a row of M-5A's headed to clear out a hamlet.....Where is a 20mm when you need one! ;)

[Poor Old Spike]

GUN-ARMED HALFTRACKS

This series of pics shows every armoured halftrack in Cmbb and Cmak that totes a weapon above and beyond the standard one or two machine guns. (I shall cover soft-skinned halftracks and truck-mounted guns etc in due course)

Passengers -The only armed halftrack in the entire game that can carry anything is the German 251/10 (37L/45), it can carry a halfsquad or any inf HQ unit, or a single support weapon such as MG/ schreck/sniper etc, or it can tow a light/medium gun (but it can't carry passgrs if towing)

GERMAN
251/22 75mm L/46
251/9 Stummel 75mm L/24
250/8 75mm L/24
251/10 37mm L/45
250/10 37 L/45
250/11 20mm Tungsten
250/9 20mm L/55
251/17 20mm L/55 AA
251/2 81mm Mort
250/7 81mm Mort
251/16 Flamethrower
251/21 Quad MG AA

(All the German halftracks below are included in Cmbb AND Cmak except for the 251/21 QuadAA and 251/22 75L/46 which Battlefront didn't include in Cmak)
(The 2x Mortar carriers can only fire in frontal cone, the whole veh pivots if you assign an impact point outside the cone)
(Battlefront have done the wrong gun graphics for the 251/17, 251/21 and 251/22)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub3/A.png
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub3/B1-2.png

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub3/C.png

[Poor Old Spike]

RUSSIAN

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub3/D1.png
--------------------------------------------


ALLIED
Reminder - none of them can carry passengers (not even a sniper), nor can they tow anything

T19 105mm L/23
M3 76mm L/35
T30 75mm L/16
M15 37mm L/54 AA
M21 81mm Mort
M4 and M4A1 81mm Mort
M16 Quad HMG AA

(The M4 and M4A1 Mortar Carriers can only fire in rear cone, the whole veh pivots if you assign an impact point outside the cone, but the M21 Mort Carrier fires in a forward cone)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub3/Y2.png

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub3/Z2.png

[Poor Old Spike]

TEST REPORT
Amazingly the M5's 50 cal couldn't hurt the 251 because of its excellent armour, whereas the 251's lighter MG cut the paper-thin M5's to pieces. Also, the M5 gunner is completely exposed, whereas the 251 gunner has a neat little gunshield.
One of the M5's caught fire, proving MG fire does have the capability of doing that against light armour..

EDIT- My original test screenshot seems to have vanished, I think I accidentally deleted it, duh..
Here's one from an actual game on the theme of MG's v halftracks, it shows how some MG's can make mincemeat of some halftracks-
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/Competitons/MG-v-halfts.gif