Various Tac posts

[Palantir]

This is the place to post any tactical ideas, suggestions, questions or knowledge you have pertaining to CM.
Soon to have it's own subforum (I hope)
If you know of any older "articles" copy & paste (with due credit) them here as well.
:salute:

[mangus2000]

Gonna kick off with some old tropics that i will just quote from, naming the contributer for posterity:D

Lets start with Flamethrowers:bigfire:

KG_Cloghuan
I think the flamethrower team works best in a direct support role working with an infantry platoon. Once an enemy infantry unit is fixed, the flamethrower can be used to assure a route. This supportive role gives a higher percentage chance of the flame team to survive a bit longer. I also think their effectiveness is maximized in concealed positions such as woods and confined urban settings.

KGPanzerShreck
i try to use these dangerous little fellows on the defense whenever possible. in buildings and wooded terrain. nothing beats a well concealed ambush with a LMG, a platoon of infantry and a couple of flamethrowers. when executed properly its truely a beautiful thing to behold. also a flame team or 2 stategicaly placed to ambush tanks along likely avenues of advance, especially for you russian players who have a terrible need for anti-tank weapons at the squad level. a few well placed flame teams can really wreak havoc on all those opened topped german AFV's & 1/2 tracks, but spend the extra points and buy veteran and crack and even elite teams if you can spare the points, you'll see a huge difference in preformance.

AirbornBob:
I employ a tactic of moving infantry/and or Carriers through a defensive line....then mop up with the flame as a follow on force...quite effective to see the defenders start to run away...smokin!!

[mangus2000]

Palantir:
To get an accurate "lock on" by the Mortar via the HQ.

1.Have the commanding HQ "target" the exact spot you want the mortars to hit.
2.This can be an area or unit target. (of course range may be a factor)
3.Then bring up all the "targeting" lines.
4.Once they are up find the HQ's line and then just plot the Mortars targeting line right down to the HQ's target.
5.Once the Mortars line "sticks" CANCEL the HQ's tageting line to keep it "unspotted."
6.Remember not to move or HIDE the HQ during the turn or you will lose the required LOS.
7.This can be done for multipile Mortars & targets, as many targets as the HQ has a good LOS to.

Sometimes the Mortar will not fire or will not fire all the rounds he can, but it is rare. Seems to be fair though.

HQ's- if you have one HQ guy with a rifle you can get some long range targeting in , but if he only as a pistol left his targeting range is extremely short!

Also- if the spotting HQ "ducks" or goes to ground during the turn you may lose the required LOS as well.

This works in all 3 games.

[mangus2000]

Wolfleader:

When advancing your tanks forward, even the German heavy cats, always make sure they're escorted by at least a squad of infantry who can reconoiter ahead and deal with troops with handheld AT weapons like bazookas and Panzerfausts lurking in buildings or in wooded areas. Additionally, infantry tend to see the world around them much better than a tank commander in a tank, particularly if that tank is buttoned up, so you can use them as the tank's eyes and ears to spot any hidden or lurking enemy unit for your tank to deal with. Additionally, enemy infantry and machinegunners will usually fire on these exposed infantry revealing their position for your tank to blast into oblivion.

When playing lightly armoured tanks like the allied tanks and the German PzIV, always be on the lookout for hills from which you can shoot at the enemy from the hull down position. A good tactic is to go hull down then send a sniper or infantry squad to reconoiter ahead and point out enemy units for your tanks to pick off.

Avoid going on overwatch on hilltops if you can, even with the heavy German cats (Tigers, Panthers King Tigers). Their armour can protect them from multiple hits by weaker allied guns but you still risk being immobilized, having your gun damaged or having your crew panic and bail out. With the heavily armoured tanks, only go on overwatch when it is absolutely necessary and when you know you won't end up being peppered with shots from lots of lurking armour and AT guns.

[mangus2000]

Fionn:

Shoot & Scoot vs Hull-down.

Shoot& Scoot:
Advantage: Enemy has limited time to get shots off at you.
Disadvantage: You usually get only 1 shot off at the enemy. The enemy usually gets at least ONE more shot off at you then you get off at him.

When to use it: Should only be used by high-experience crews where their odds of a first round hit are reasonable. Should be used by thin-skinned vehicles.

So: in German terms Marders, Nashorns etc should use this method. Since they're cheap you can increase their experience markedly ( which gives them a good chance of 1st shot kills) at far less cost than increasing the experience of a Mark IV or III.

How does it work... Marder is in full-defilade when enemy enters a pre-designated engagement area. Marder moves into hull-down position takes 1 long-range shot before the enemy even notices it is there. Marder moves back into cover as enemy return fire whistles overhead. Rinse and repeat. You minimise the chance of less experienced enemy units hitting you since they never get a chance to bracket you with repeated misses and since your units have high experience and high-velocity guns your 1st round hit probability is high.


Hull-down.. usually in a sort of overwatch position. Should only, IMO, be used by units with good turret front armour. If they don't have good turret front armour then they're going to die at the first hit.

So overwatching hull-down should only be practiced by units which have the armour to survive multiple frontal hits.


When the main battle is joined obviously all units most join the fray. This is the time to bring the 50mm frontal-armour Pz IVs into the fray.


I would stress, though, that it is important to engage by platoon. Even a single enemy tank should be engaged by a full platoon. If there are 3 enemy tanks then you need to engage with at least 2 platoons etc etc. Always seek to overmatch the enemy whenever possible.
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[TacCovert4]

When building a force, decide early what type of battle plan you WILL follow:

1) Decide whether your tanks will win through armor versus shell or by manuever. If AvS, buy several tanks that you feel confident will take multiple hits before brewing up. If these tanks don't pack the firepower, buy some tanks that do, and plan on using your heavies as your vanguard. If going for manuever, quick tanks with high rates of fire mean much more than armor. Fast turret rotation is a must, multiple turrets are very helpful (AK).

2) Always buy footborne AT weapons. Although you might have unstoppable tanks, they're big targets and draw fire wonderfully. a few Shreks or Zooks work wonders in a small and relatively cheap package.

[TacCovert4]

Tanks make wonderful personell carriers. Some will even hold full squads. If they do, do. If they don't, mount mortars or AT rockets. Nothing is more embarrassing than to see your armor hit the enemy at >100 meters and 3+ zooks open up with your tanks.

On that same note, do not let mounted troops on tanks come under heavy fire. The troops will abandon ship, and most of the time get pinned down, and they will never do it in an opportune spot. Always dismount before you expect even light contact.

[kawaiku]

I have several questions about tactics. First off what is overwatch and how and what times do you use it? And how do you carry out an combined arms assault using Mobile Infantry, Infantry Support vehicles, and the Half-Tracks against fixed positions or a Town? I haven't figured it out and need some tips on how to use combined arms and overwatch. All of your help is appreciated.

[mangus2000]

I have several questions about tactics. First off what is overwatch and how and what times do you use it? And how do you carry out an combined arms assault using Mobile Infantry, Infantry Support vehicles, and the Half-Tracks against fixed positions or a Town? I haven't figured it out and need some tips on how to use combined arms and overwatch. All of your help is appreciated.
Overwatch is when you have a unit on top of a hill or in a hollow in the ground with good views on certain parts of the map or even the whole map, IIRC it is also called Enfilade or Defilade depending on the position.
With Armour its best to have them quite far back on a hill so the Turret is in a hull down position.

With regards to the HalfTracks, I'm am at this moment rushing mine towards some woods in my games with The Hooded One. I've tried to keep a Mortar Barrage going on the position to keep enemy heads down plus the fire power of 4 or 5 HT is quite good on soft skin infantry. Hood says they will all be destroyed but if they serve their purpose then i will be happy. I will report on my findings later.

[mangus2000]

Nemesis Lead:

These maxims were written by one of my CM mentors...... I use this approach in CM:


Small arms, at range (no close combat):

-900 total “firepower” points of direct fire will rout a fresh squad in 30 seconds or less.
-350 total “firepower” points of direct fire will rout a fresh squad in 2 turns or less.
-250 total “firepower” points of direct fire will pin a fresh squad solid in 1 turn or less.

-900 total “firepower” points of indirect fire (area target hidden unit) will rout a fresh squad in 2 turns or less.
-450 total “firepower” points of indirect fire (area target hidden unit) will pin a fresh squad solid in 2 turns or less.

High Explosives:

-50mm mortars will pin in 1 turn, will break/rout in 2 full turns (about 30 shots).

-81-82mm mortar will pin with 1-3 direct hits, pin solid with 3-6 direct hits, and rout anywhere from 3-12 direct hits

-blast value = 4, like the 20mmL55 gun, will pin in 20 seconds, rout in 1 turn (if HE fire is close enough to be accurate)

-blast value = 45-50 will pin with 1-3 direct hits, rout in 2-6 direct hits

-blast value= 50 + will pin and/or rout in 1-2 direct hits

Other:

-canister within 60 meters will rout in one shot
-flame will rout with one direct hit
-demo will break or rout with one direct hit
-grenade bundle will pin or break with one direct hit

Info based on regular experience German riflemen attacking regular Russian SMG troops in Summer Woods (11-15% exposure), in foxholes, with no bonuses.

Numbers are rough guidelines only and do not account for fanatics, HE direct fire inaccuracy, bonuses, etc.
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[Poor Old Spike]

Hey I like this tac discussion section and will contribute some stunning posts of my own, but the sooner its made into a sub-forum the better, then it can have different threads on different subjects within it, rather than all jumbled up like now.
At the moment we can only post replies in it and not create new topics..

[mangus2000]

If youve got the shot, Take it:laugh: :laugh:

[Poor Old Spike]

Another thing - I definitely don't like somebody putting the line "I've been flamed x 100" under my avatar even though its true I've lost 100 out of 400 ladder games, but it sends out the wrong impression to noobs, let me explain -
I'm constantly urging CM players to have more confidence in their abilities and to think tough to the point of arrogance because thats a good winning mindset to adopt.
For example when beginning a game with people they often say to me wimpy stuff like "you'll win of course...I always have bad luck...I'm ready to die.. I got no chance... I rarely win... etc" and I have to tell them thats LOSER TALK and they're ALREADY HALF-BEAT with a defeatist mindset like that.
So now if they see the line "I've been flamed x 100" they're going to think "Hey, Spikes always telling us to stop putting ourselves down, but he's doing the same thing to himself in that line, so if he can put himself down we can follow suit and put ourselves down too!"
See, they think I wrote it, and that sends out the wrong message.
I tried deleting it in my profile but there's no option to get rid of it grrrrr....

PS - Psychologist Gertrude Schmeidler did a famous series of "goats and sheep" paranormal experiments many years ago in which she proved - conclusively - that a negative mindset can actually bring bad luck on yourself. Other scientists have duplicated her tests over the years and are still scratching their heads trying to explain it because it defies the known laws of logic and chance.
The aspect that baffles them is that whereas the positive thinkers in test groups tended to have above average luck, someone with a negative mindset doesn't just have an average random set of test results like you'd expect,but tended to have a BELOW AVERAGE set, as if his neg vibes are digging him into a hole..
Oh and if you're wondering, my own luck in CM has always been about average and I'll settle for that, and will only start worrying if it ever goes below average..
http://www.parapsych.org/members/g_schmeidler.html

[Poor Old Spike]

Turn 1 plotting always involves a lot of work, this is a typical example from a CMAK June 44 Italy (Normandy) QB Meeting Engagement game I'm currently playing against the WPC ladder leader.
As usual this is aimed at noobs, so my apologies to old hands, but anybody please feel free to comment or criticise or add to anything I say, thats what discussions are for ;)
As usual I've given my infantry run - repeat RUN - orders to get to the flags first, and more inf are tankriding, but I've already issued them disembark orders so they'll hop off with zero delay when the tanks end their movement.
(A couple of MG's are walking not running because they go exhausted too quickly if forced to run)
Its dense wooded terrain, so I've ordered my tanks to go on FAST right up to the flags, (no sense holding them back where they won't see anything)
In short,I want to saturate the woods as quickly as possible with infantry squads backed up by tanks breathing down their necks so I can give the enemy a warm welcome when he appears in the woods.
Note the zig-zag paths of the tanks, its time-consuming to plot but its the only way to thread them round clumps of trees..
PS - The plots aren't set in stone, I shall no doubt fine-tune many end waypoints in a few turns (via the excellent key 6 top-down view) by dragging them an inch or two this way or that for inch-perfect precision.
Noob tip - remember you can drag waypoints around to new positions within limits, rather than waste time cancelling and re-plotting. (And you can also change waypoints speeds too at the same time)
(Oh, and incidentally this pic is only half the battlefield, its a biggish 3000-point game, there are more flags and a heap of units miles away on the left flank, can't squeeze the whole caboodle into one picture very easily)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/CMfirstmovs1.jpg

[Palantir]

I definitely don't like somebody putting the line "I've been flamed x 100" under my avatar...

That's one of the "universal" tags put on players who have 100 but not 200 posts. Just 15 more & it will disappear and then you'll be a "Casual Poster."

If you care to make a comment about it please do so in the "Site Suggestions Feedback" forum / Updated Forum Look." The "big guys" check that out.

As far as the subforum- It was requested, but with summer it might take some time to get implimented.

[Poor Old Spike]

One of the biggest mistakes people make in CM is forgetting the simple basic maths they were taught at kindergarten..
This compendium of 4 screenshots from my recent games says it all, namely always get better odds than your opponent in tank duels and you'll usually come out on top every time.
If you're going up against 1 tank, hit him with at least 2 or more of your own, the more the better..
In these examples I've hit enemy tanks at odds of 3 and 4 to 1.
He couldn't beat the odds, he was toasted..

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/CMmathx4.jpg



Hey even SWAT copy my tactics..
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/swatstackup.jpg

[TacCovert4]

Pick a point on your line for your major push, and use it. "A decent plan, diligently executed, is better than doing nothing waiting for the perfect plan.

Replay battles after they are fought. If you can, get your enemy's password. You will learn much about what mistakes you and your enemy made during the battle, and both of you will improve from the hindsight.

Deception Deception Deception Deception. In the desert at 500 yards and out of direct LOS, a Tiger tank and a Jeep both make a dust cloud. And that is all your enemy really has to go on. Make him split his forces by creating diversions of moving light vehicles, and pack your heavies tightly to minimize the dust cloud. It is perfectly possible to make a PZIII platoon put off the same dust as 2 PZIIIs, as long as they are close enough. At the last moment, break up the tight formation to prevent easy kills and to confuse the enemy as to your numbers. You can also do this with a diversionary force, (White's Scout cars are a personal favorite for speed and firepower against infantry), charging in a formation just loose enough to unmask that there are a bunch of them, but wide and deep enough to prevent individual dust clouds from forming. Then flare and retreat at fast move, breaking off just before your own troops are in AT weapons range. In other words, use a mangudai force to draw your enemy into his own destruction.

Never have your entire force moving, unless you are pursuing obviously broken remnants of his entire force, or it is turns 1-3 (depends on map size). Utilize bounding overwatch to provide security for your movements. Also there is the side benefit that an unobservant enemy will misestimate your force locations and capabilities if he doesn't pay attention to dust clouds (CMAK) and their origins and stopping points.

[Lurker]

I have several questions about tactics. First off what is overwatch and how and what times do you use it? And how do you carry out an combined arms assault using Mobile Infantry, Infantry Support vehicles, and the Half-Tracks against fixed positions or a Town? I haven't figured it out and need some tips on how to use combined arms and overwatch. All of your help is appreciated.Here's my 2 cents :hush: .
Hilltop overwatch: I find it best not to park a tank or two hull down as overwatch units. For one thing a smart opponent upon seeing them will not present you with targets, and they will also become targets themselves if they sit there like fat turtles hoping something good will happen. IMO it's better to use a cheap disposable inf type unit (green or reg HS, section leader, tank hunter unit, etc) to move into the position that you're planning on bringing your tank to in order to see what can be seen. Move him up and hide him and if there are good armored targets then you may think about bringing your tanks hunting or shoot and scoot forward. If not then you didn't give away your armor position and you can reposition that unit to another overwatch point that may be better. You also have to consider the posture of the enemy tank(s): is it broadside; is it distracted with other matters; is it sitting there waiting for you to appear; how far away is it and is it hull down; what will your chances be; does it seem they may move closer and be in better range if you wait; is it being troublesome and needs to be eliminated right away, and do you have superior numbers (2:1, 3:1, etc)? Many variables before moving hull down into attack/overwatch, including the ability of your armor to sustain punishment.
Overwatch is also great for HQ units spotting for local mtr teams or mtr carriers, and great if you can stealthily move an ATG into concealed overwatch. Better still if that ATG has a nearby +stealth, +attack HQ unit.

Mobile CA vs fixed pos or town: That's not an easy one in that there are so many more variables to consider. What are the logistics like; good cover, too open, good support overwatch for you? Does he have ATGs or armor? Is he dug in if not in a town?
If your support includes light armor like ACs and HTs that are open topped then basically keep them under wraps so that there isn't a wide scope that has LOS access to them. Try keeping the window to the target as narrow as possible so as little as possible can return fire. Watch for schrecks; very nasty and good range. Don't park near a woods edge or in scattered trees if it's open topped, because an airburst from a mtr shell or OBA can KO or force your crew to abandon the vehicle. There will be times when you will have to park near or in trees (no other choice), and that is when the narrow window will pay off if he doesn't have local mtrs that can see your vehicle. Even then, consider that he will bring them and a spotter into position quickly to relieve his units. So do your dirty work quickly and move out of the area before the shells start landing.
Don't be afraid to use smoke if available to move from cover to cover if the opening looks dangerous. If you have to move across a dangerous looking space and you don't know about ATGs then you may have to use your least important AC/HT as bait to flush out his gun. Be prepared with your own mtrs to hit back if you find one.
The only way to take a fixed position is with superior over all firepower at the point of attack.

As with chess, I always like to play the position and not the player, so I always assume my opponent will have hidden guns/units in all of the best possible locations and then I maneuver accordingly. Of course if you know he has combined arms and the game isn't too large then there always the possibility to count points if you know what you've killed and what he's likely to have left. That may be a bit cheesy to some but it's within the game if CA is insisted upon. :halo:

And don't be impatient (if you have time that is :) ).

I hope that helps.

[Palantir]

Overwatch is also great for HQ units spotting for local mtr teams or mtr carriers...
Do you have any proof that a HQ gives any LOS help/advantage to a mtr carrier? :crosseye:
From what I understand they don't.

[mangus2000]

Do you have any proof that a HQ gives any LOS help/advantage to a mtr carrier? :crosseye:
From what I understand they don't.
HQs can spot for any on board Mtr team, Carrier or not.
How long you been playing this game Kerry?:cheeky: :cheeky: :cheeky:

[Boff]

From memory the ability for HQs to spot for Mortar Carriers is in CMBB & CMAK only, you can't do it in CMBO.

[Lurker]

From memory the ability for HQs to spot for Mortar Carriers is in CMBB & CMAK only, you can't do it in CMBO.Sadly this is true. :cry: Just think, with a few tweaks BO would rule again.

[Palantir]

HQs can spot for any on board Mtr team, Carrier or not.

You know, now that I think about it my HQ-LOS tests were with SP-arty units not mtr carriers. It didn't work with them so I must have figured it didn't work with any SP units.
But there you go, you learn something new everyday. :halo:

[Redwolf]

OK, what's "CA"?

[Lurker]

OK, what's "CA"?Combined Arms, or Covered Arc. In this case combined arms. It probably would have helped just to have said 'combined arms' initially but I thought I'd take the lazy way out. :)

[Redwolf]

Isn't it enough that people use WTM TLAs?

[Lurker]

Isn't it enough that people use WTM TLAs?OK, you got me. What are those? :confused: :hmmm:

[Palantir]

We will be getting a "Tactical Talk" Sub-forum soon! :)

[KGPanzerschrecK]

As with chess, I always like to play the position and not the player, so I always assume my opponent will have hidden guns/units in all of the best possible locations and then I maneuver accordingly. Of course if you know he has combined arms and the game isn't too large then there always the possibility to count points if you know what you've killed and what he's likely to have left. That may be a bit cheesy to some but it's within the game if CA is insisted upon.

Unrestricted force mix is the way to go IMHO. No way to count points that way. No gameyness. There could be a Pakfront over there or a Company of Tanks or a Battalion of Infantry or a mix of all three. You never know and thats the great thing about unrestricted. You have to be prepared for anything, or better yet, make your opponent worry and be prepared for you. You have to be a very good commander, and after all, isnt that what this game is all about? Being a good commander, not counting points? :)

[TacCovert4]

The only bad thing I will say about unrestricted is if you are going for realism. Unrestricted let's you cherry pick and tailor your force to exactly what you want to do. But I love it for that.

Random, IMHO is the worst, as sometimes the enemy gets combined arms and you get pure infantry, with no ability to buy armor more potent than ACs. Really, Really, Really annoying.

[Poor Old Spike]

As I've mentioned before, an "Unrestricted" parameter set is the only way to go, its by far the most popular with the majority of players in the 3 other clubs I've been in over the past 3 years.
It's FUN picking a force to do the job, you can be at the purchase screen for an hour or so juggling your force mix, then send the file and think "right bub, chew on that little lot!"..
Here are a set of very popular battle-proven CMBB standard params that I and many others like, but of course we sometimes agree to a tweak here and there regarding month and year, terrain, weather,amount of purchase pts etc..

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/Parameters.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/Parameters2.jpg

[Lurker]

I agree most definitely with unrestricted. For one thing, as to realism, how many of us know what would be realistic WWII combined arms forces? I don't off hand, and I don't have the inclination to do an in depth study when I want to pick for a battle. :cheeky: CA also assumes the designers are spot on with their arbitrary numerical values. Another issue with CA, in medium and below battles, is the possibility of point counting. That is far more unrealistic IMO then cherry picking.

[Poor Old Spike]

Yes, CA setups can give distorted forces. For example I agreed to play a CA with a dood a couple of years ago,and he won.
If I remember correctly I could only afford about 4 x PzIV's because of the restrictions on armour, whereas he could afford about 6 x T-34's because they were cheaper, and I'd therefore "lost" 2 x AFV's before the game had even begun, think "uphill struggle"..

[KGPanzerschrecK]

Yes, CA setups can give distorted forces. For example I agreed to play a CA with a dood a couple of years ago,and he won. "

Heavens to Betsy! We cant have of that now can we? LOL. :p :smoke: :laugh:


If I remember correctly I could only afford about 4 x PzIV's because of the restrictions on armour, whereas he could afford about 6 x T-34's because they were cheaper, and I'd therefore "lost" 2 x AFV's before the game had even begun, think "uphill struggle"..

You should of opted for Stug's instead. :smoke: :)

[Poor Old Spike]

When anybody tries to force an inf-heavy CA game on me, my first thought is - "He's afraid of tanks" ;)
I like tanks, after all they were invented to make war more fun..
Here are my metal babies assaulting Hill 182 in an ongoing pbem ("Panzer Marsch" scenario)
My opponent Enigma isn't afraid of tanks..
I plan to give every one of them area-fire orders soon to saturate the treeline along the ridge with H.E.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/hill182.jpg

[mangus2000]

Dealing with SMG Squads.

Nemesis Lead:

Although I like them, Russian SMG troops are not the boogeyman everyone thinks they are. They have little ammo and are only effective below 100m (although they are super effective at 80m and below). They have lousy anti-tank capability. They are cheap, but their companies come with no organic heavy weapons (HMGs, mortars, AT weapons, etc.).

Simply put, you need to do 4 things:

1) Be wary of "reverse slope" type situations (e.g., SMG troops in the back of buildings, SMG troops in the rear of a clump of trees, SMG troops just over the top of a hill) and flank reverse slopes whenever possible. Try to get LOS behind that clump of trees or building with an HMG. Mow down the SMG troops as they try to run after springing their ambush. Slow and methodical beats SMG troops. Fast and furious play will doom you.

2) Send cheap scouts in to find the SMG troops but keep the main body of your infantry back beyond 100 meters. You want to engage in firefights at 100m plus. At this range, you will win the firefight as the SMG troops run out of ammo quickly--your riflemen and MGs won't.

3) Most importantly, use HE against them. This is your primary killer. You can standoff safely and pound them. Armor, artillery, on-map mortars, etc..

4) Armored cars with MGs are great for killing SMG infantry. They can hit without fear of being hit back (by the SMGs) except for those Molotov cocktails which are lousy.

[Nemesis Lead]

As I've mentioned before, an "Unrestricted" parameter set is the only way to go

It is all personal preference but I am far more likely to play CA for 3 reasons:

1) Players playing unrestricted games can win by just bringing a totally unbalanced force that their opponent is not prepared for. CM is literally reduced to "rock, paper, scissors" with the winner essentially winning during the setup. With Combined Arms (CA) this is less likely to happen (although it still can!).

2) It is historically not accurate. Tanks, for example, rarely attacked without other supporting arms.

3) All the ubertanks and super heavy artillery become affordable in very small unrestricted games. Sometimes the game becomes--"can you kill the King Tiger" or "can you survive the 300mm Rocket Bombardment on a small map."

The bottom line--games are more fun when combined arms skill decides the winner. They are less fun when games "are won during the setup" by fielding unbalanced forces.

[KGPanzerschrecK]

It is all personal preference but I am far more likely to play CA for 3 reasons:

1) Players playing unrestricted games can win by just bringing a totally unbalanced force that their opponent is not prepared for. CM is literally reduced to "rock, paper, scissors" with the winner essentially winning during the setup. With Combined Arms (CA) this is less likely to happen (although it still can!).

2) It is historically not accurate. Tanks, for example, rarely attacked without other supporting arms.

3) All the ubertanks and super heavy artillery become affordable in very small unrestricted games. Sometimes the game becomes--"can you kill the King Tiger" or "can you survive the 300mm Rocket Bombardment on a small map."

The bottom line--games are more fun when combined arms skill decides the winner. They are less fun when games "are won during the setup" by fielding unbalanced forces.

Your right, it is a matter of personal preferance, but if someone does something you find gamey or not cool, just add them to your wont play again list, or better yet, teach them a lesson they wont soon forget.

I have found that almost everyone who i have ever played that is worth their salt that plays unrestricted picks a well balanced force to begin with anyhow. They just dont like be confined to a certain number of points if they decide they need a little extra help in one area or another.

As for the clowns who pick an all Tank force, any decent player would gladly take that force apart with Guns and Infantry as it blindly tries to move on Vl's. And any fool who drops a 300mm Incindiary Rocket barrage on a small map will kill just as many of his own troops as he will of the enemies troops.

[Poor Old Spike]

NEMESIS LEAD QUOTE - Players playing unrestricted games can win by just bringing a totally unbalanced force that their opponent is not prepared for. CM is literally reduced to "rock, paper, scissors" with the winner essentially winning during the setup..
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Yes :)
That's why Unrestricted is such fun, trying to guess and outguess what your opponent will be buying :)
For example in a current game my opponent has bought NO armour at all, he's simply flooded the map with infantry and schrecks and has butchered my T-34-heavy force and is on course for a Major victory..
C'est la guerre, I can hack it :)

[Poor Old Spike]

NEMESIS QUOTE - The bottom line--games are more fun when combined arms skill decides the winner
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As I've said, you're definitely in a minority for thinking that mate, as players in my 3 other clubs definitely prefer unrestricted, maybe SZO is a CA-cult club?
CA games are bland and boring and somewhat effeminate because the restrictions on armour purchase mean both sides will only have about half a dozen tanks and 50 million infantry, therefore no great tank battles and no armoured wolfpacks aggressively stalking the map looking for trouble.
Sit down for a game of chess with somebody and tell him he's got to replace most of his glamour-pieces with pawns, and you'll soon be out on your butt.
Yet thats what CA-cultists try to tell me and others with their insistence on throwing out most tanks in favour of lots of infantry.
It's downright gamey to try to tell anybody what he can or can't buy,so
I simply say to my opponents "Buy whatever you please", life's so much simpler that way ;)

[Palantir]

I like CA games, and your chess analogy is wrong: that is a Combined Arms board. Every piece has a Distinct job to do.

Having an all Queen & 2 pawns game would be unrestricted chess.

[KGPanzerschrecK]

I agree Kerry, Chess is about as Combined Arms as it gets.

[Poor Old Spike]

Chess has an excellent proportion of glamour-pieces and pawns, but a CA game has too many infantry and not enough tanks.
Inf-heavy games are like wading through glue because the inf spend half the time crawling for cover when shot at (yawn).
By contrast, the only way to stop a tank is to kill or immob it, think "slaying the beast", thus we're back to the fun and excitement thing again, it appeals to my caveman hunting instincts I suppose.
King Kong steak anyone?

[Lurker]

I have found that almost everyone who i have ever played that is worth their salt that plays unrestricted picks a well balanced force to begin with anyhow. They just dont like be confined to a certain number of points if they decide they need a little extra help in one area or another. I found the same thing with unrestricted. I usually pick a version of combined arms even when playing unrestricted, but I just don't like arbitrary values forced on me with category points.

As to one being more fun then the other, it's all a matter of taste.

1) Players playing unrestricted games can win by just bringing a totally unbalanced force that their opponent is not prepared for. CM is literally reduced to "rock, paper, scissors" with the winner essentially winning during the setup. With Combined Arms (CA) this is less likely to happen (although it still can!). Not necessarily. If one is completely unprepared then perhaps it's a short comming in his own selections. How often did a wwii battle involve perfect CA on both sides? In a small CA battle one can count points and often predict what his opponent has left and where. This could be as much an aid to winning as being 'out-picked'.

When defending I expect that the RL defender would typically NOT have a CA force, but one that is defender heavy with fortifications, MGs, and guns.

[Poor Old Spike]

LURKER QUOTE - In a small CA battle one can count points and often predict what his opponent has left and where.
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Hey mate I was just going to say that too :)
Another thing - With only a small permitted CA armour force of say half a dozen tanks, players tend to be ultra-careful and pussyfoot around with them because to lose just 3 means half your armour has gone up the spout, hence the game becomes dull.
But to lose 3 out of an unrestricted force of say 10 tanks doesn't hurt quite so much because a bigger force can absorb losses and keep on rolling, hence a player is more inclined to be daring with them and we get a more exciting game.
Anyway on top of everything, the term "Combined Arms" is open to wide interpretation.
For example my standard force mix in an unresticted 2000-pt Meeting is about 10 tanks, 6 infantry platoons and a smattering of MGs, mortars and snipers.
Seems pretty much a "CA" force to me ;)

[mangus2000]

I think it's time for a "who counts points Poll":laugh:

[Lurker]

I would think everyone's done it to some degree. Haven't you ever done a rough estimate of what you've eliminated and what you've spotted so to try and calculate about how much could be left? I like 5 and 10k unrestricted MEs. Imagine how much easier it is when it's a small to 1500 pt CA A/D. :)