Some results on transport capacity

[jlbetin]

Hi
on the following thread, http://www.warfarehq.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4272

to answer to one of us I did some calculations
go to the thread to get the full story.

Here are the results

1st and more important
----------------------
Whatever the infantry unit you choose its transport weight value is the same. All the calculations I made, were equals as well for irregular riffle, Assault AT+ Squad as for reco Riffle/Assault Team
Team and Squad have no "weight" differences. Amazing No?

2nd Result
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Jeeps scouts or other units are not set for unit transportation
for an infantry unit ( following preceding rsult) you need at least 23 jeeps or scouts transporter, the exact rate is 0,04 unit per transporter

3rd Result
---------
considering a map with 10km/hex 1/2 day turn.
I saw 2 kind of transport units.
The ones with a transportation capacity of 2,3 units per transporter ( as halftracks), the ones with a transportation capacity of 2,57 units per transporter as all types of trucks and most of modern IFV.

Der Wanderer

[jlbetin]

To continue on this.
I just played with BioEd and add the Transportation check box to the Jeep and then the Transportation rate moved to 2.57 unit per jeep

QED

Der WanderFinder

[jlbetin]

I continue to play with figures :D


For map with 2,5 km/hex 6 hours/turn to map with 50km/hex full week turn & for units with higher transportation rate as trucks

The Transport rate value fluctuate between 2.57 units/transporter up to 2,71, with a peak at 2.79 for 20km/hex and full day turn.


Der WanderTrendAnalyst

[JMS]

2 things:

1) There is the movement bias multiplier to control rates of movement of each force. Don't forget this useful feature.

2) I think Norm based the squad around 10-12 men, and changed the amount of stuff they could carry. A heavy AT+ RS will be 10 guys with 2 LMGs and some Carl Gustavs.

[jlbetin]

2 things:

1) There is the movement bias multiplier to control rates of movement of each force. Don't forget this useful feature..
Yes but what I spoke of is the number of units transported per vehicles whatever the movement value is


2) I think Norm based the squad around 10-12 men, and changed the amount of stuff they could carry. A heavy AT+ RS will be 10 guys with 2 LMGs and some Carl Gustavs.
From TOAW COW Equipment list

A squad is the basic low level unit in infantry, cavalry & support outfits. The exact size varies with nationality and period, but it is usually in the range of 8 to 12 men. Squad anti-tank and anti-personnel strengths are determined by sums of constant values assigned to certain common weapon systems.


Assault AT + Squad , Heavy RPG, Squad Assault Rifle, RPG, Squad Grenade, LMG
Recon Rifle Team , LMG, (Squad Rifle, Squad Grenade)/2
Recon Assault Team LMG, (Squad Assault Rifle, Squad Grenade, LMG)/2


So assault AT+ Squad 8 to 12 soldiers
a team is Squad/2 so 4 to 6 soldiers

Der Wanderer

[JeremyMacDonald]

2nd Result
----------
Jeeps scouts or other units are not set for unit transportation
for an infantry unit ( following preceding rsult) you need at least 23 jeeps or scouts transporter, the exact rate is 0,04 unit per transporter

Are you sure your not just raising the average speed of the unit? You can make units faster simply by adding more fast moving equipment to the unit even if it has no transport capability since TOAW uses some kind of average speed algorythm to decide how many movement points a unit has.

In other words:

A unit made of only jeeps is fast.

A unit made of only walking infantry is slow.

A unit made of 50% jeeps and 50% walking infantry is moderate. Its has some kind of average speed of the fast jeeps and slow infantry.

Maybe to make the point more clear...its not neccisary to use jeeps to speed up unist speed. You could use little self propelled flack guns or something. So long as the unit itself is quick it will speed up a unit full of slogging infantry because some kind of average* speed is what counts.

*Its not a true mean...but some other form of averaging algorythm.

[JAMiAM]

Except in the cases where there is equipment that "requires transport". If the unit has no transports then the movement rate drops to one.

[jlbetin]

Are you sure your not just raising the average speed of the unit? You can make units faster simply by adding more fast moving equipment to the unit even if it has no transport capability since TOAW uses some kind of average speed algorythm to decide how many movement points a unit has.
I hope that the following will convince you:

I took I half track it gives by instance 15 moves, I install then 1000 halftrack, the moves value stay on 15. So adding same unit change nothing -> Trivial sorry

Next try,
I took 1 squad, the move value is 3, I add the halftrack the move value is directly 15, I add an other halftrack, value don't move ad libitum.
Now I have 1 halftrack, I add 1 squad, no change on move value, an other one no change a third one the the value disminish a little. If my hypothesis is correct an halftrack can carry 2,5 units so 2 units goes to the vehicle the 3rd one is by foot and lower the global speed

Now as a good geologist, I took my brain and make it works. Good experiments likes great values and works with it. I took 1000 squad it gives a move value of 3, I add 1000 HTrack move value go to 15, and step by step I search the threshold where move value change -> see upper results

Now I work with Jeep, which are not transport units, but they have a way to carry things, like tanks could carry units ( this was a red army tactic in WW2, that german followed.). As JMS said it each unit as a weight that moving untis could hold

Then I took 100 squad and try to find the treshold were the move value reach the Jeep move value -> 2700 more or less and a mean of 0,04 unit per Jeep.
I don't make the calculation, but it could be done the same for tanks

QED


Der WanderExperimenter

[jlbetin]

Now continue on having fun

I took 1000 T34/76 move value 10, I add one riffle squad value immediatly drop to 9, so tanks don't carry troops :D

I took then M113 reconnaissance vehicule move value 10

I define 100 riffle squad, it needs 764 M113 to rise the value of 10
so a M113 reco could carry 0,13 units


Der Wanderer

[jlbetin]

In other words:

A unit made of only jeeps is fast.

A unit made of only walking infantry is slow.

A unit made of 50% jeeps and 50% walking infantry is moderate. Its has some kind of average speed of the fast jeeps and slow infantry.

Maybe to make the point more clear...its not neccisary to use jeeps to speed up unist speed. You could use little self propelled flack guns or something. So long as the unit itself is quick it will speed up a unit full of slogging infantry because some kind of average* speed is what counts.

*Its not a true mean...but some other form of averaging algorythm.Sorry Jeremy but you are on the wrong road :D

Try the following create one unit put in it 1000 tanks, move value is 10
add one riffle squad the value decrease immediatly to 9
Take 1000 jeep put 1 riffle the move value don't decrease at ALL
because tank don't carry troops here,

but Jeep could carry part of an infantry unit 0,04 unit per vehicle.
see M113 calculation made upon this quote.

And see too the question which originated my work on the thread open by meade05 http://www.warfarehq.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4272

Then you are right there are average calculation for defining speed, but to add jeep to speed up a unit is not the goal the goal is to use jeep to carry units and Jeep don't do it as I would.
As I write it before, I used BioEd to checking the box transportation on P3, then the Jeep transport rate rise to 2.54 units /vehicle
which is non sense for a jeep


Der WanderDefinite

[jlbetin]

Hi,
I spent some time to discuss about all that stuff with people of TDG.
After advice of one of their member, I did many recalculations with many map scale change, and it shows that move value is established on average of move value of all units. I apologizise, I was so deep in my 1st idea that I don't seen what was so obvious.

So to conclude, only units with transport capacity can transport units.

For me I saw 2 type of transport unit rate

- squads and light weapons -> more or less 2.5 units per transport
- heavy weapons more or less 1.8 units per transport.

Der Wanderer