View Full Version : Revised Two Weeks in Normandy
I'd suggest a slightly revised version of this scenario to used in the game, that takes care of the three slight blemishes in an otherwise spectacular scenario.
If you'd like, I should be able to make it available within 48 hours.
Essentially, it will set the Max Rounds Per Battle to 3, and remove eligibility for reconstitution for the ground units of both sides, so that all the replacements go straight back into on-map units, instead of being sucked up into units that will appear on turn 28 of a 12 turn max game.:surprise:
The former change will allow folks to utilize one of the major new features of TOAW III, while the latter will take care of a problem with the scenario that has existed since it was broken away from the longer Four Weeks in Normandy, that Brett designed.
(Late Edit) Oh, and one other little thing. I'd put a supply point in Cherbourg, to do away with the annoying habit of the German units retreating into the oncoming Allied forces, since all the other supply points are on the southern map edge. This way, the forces in the Cotentin peninsula will retreat toward Cherbourg, as they did historically.
General Staff
27 Jun 06, 11:34
You must mean 49.3333 hours. And I thought Kentucky lads were fairly easy-going. Of more immediate concern, can you or will you or do you want to participate? ;)
We could sure use the help.
I'd suggest a slightly revised version of this scenario to used in the game, that takes care of the two slight blemishes in an otherwise spectacular scenario.
If you'd like, I should be able to make it available within 48 hours.
Essentially, it will set the Max Rounds Per Battle to 3, and remove eligibility for reconstitution for the ground units of both sides, so that all the replacements go straight back into on-map units, instead of being sucked up into units that will appear on turn 28 of a 12 turn max game.:surprise:
The former change will allow folks to utilize one of the major new features of TOAW III, while the latter will take care of a problem with the scenario that has existed since it was broken away from the longer Four Weeks in Normandy, that Brett designed.
Hey JAMIAM, yes - the scenario revision would be appropriate and good to use on both counts. Thank you very much!
Hey JAMIAM, yes - the scenario revision would be appropriate and good to use on both counts. Thank you very much!
I've emailed Brett to either get his blessing, or for him to do the work personally. I noticed from his forum profile that he hasn't been on the site for nearly three years, so I don't know if the email account on file is still valid. If I don't receive a reply, within 48 hours, then I'll go ahead and release the file. Otherwise, I would prefer to bring him onboard to make the changes, since it is his scenario.
It'd be great to get him back into actively scenario designing...
Please find attached, the scenario file for your evaluation and use. The edits are notated in the scenario briefing and the scenario file has been renamed as "Two Weeks in Normandy 44 - T3NPW"
I haven't yet received a reply from Brett, so I'm going on the assumption that he is either temporarily indisposed, or disinterested in personally revising it at this time.
Please let me know if you find any problems with the file.
Please find attached, the scenario file for your evaluation and use. The edits are notated in the scenario briefing and the scenario file has been renamed as "Two Weeks in Normandy 44 - T3NPW"
I haven't yet received a reply from Brett, so I'm going on the assumption that he is either temporarily indisposed, or disinterested in personally revising it at this time.
Please let me know if you find any problems with the file.
Thanks James - a good pick up on the Axis supply point for Cherbourg. I appreciate your assistance on this!
A quick note - Almost done with the simplified OOB for both sides and the extended OOB for the Allies - should wrap that up tomorrow, but might have some time to get fancied up a bit and include those files with the zip.
Can see you are keeping busy these days! :crosseye:
Take it easy!
Mark
General Staff
01 Jul 06, 05:03
(Late Edit) Oh, and one other little thing. I'd put a supply point in Cherbourg, to do away with the annoying habit of the German units retreating into the oncoming Allied forces, since all the other supply points are on the southern map edge. This way, the forces in the Cotentin peninsula will retreat toward Cherbourg, as they did historically.
Wondering on impact of this. It used to suggest to Allies they cut off the peninsula ASAP with no supply point and Germans to pedal those bicycles like maniacs to get out in time. Let's see.
Glad I'm up as an Axis advisor- it gives us an advantage and let's see how we can use it. And thanks.
Glad I'm up as an Axis advisor- it gives us an advantage and let's see how we can use it. And thanks.
That's okay. All of the Allied team members will be using this opening turn for their games...:devious:
Oops...nevermind. This was from a game where the MRPB was set to three, but I hadn't yet made the other changes. Oh well. It can still serve as a reminder of what's possible to accomplish on Turn One with the Allies, and what kind of disaster can face the Germans from the start.
Impressive. I'm glad you're not playing for the Allies. :)
That's okay. All of the Allied team members will be using this opening turn for their games...:devious:
We should build a first-turn DB, I have some DNO opening turns that make your all warm and fuzzy inside while watching them :devious: :PIMP:
viridomaros
05 Jul 06, 08:47
just tried the scenario
works well though a couple of questions:
- i have lost quite a few planes as allied, has the anti aircraft fire from groundtroops been improved in toaw III? the planes were all on combat support and i even lost some high altitude planes. Most of my losses occured against ground troops which didn't have any aa guns inside its equipement.
- the german could bomb my ships like 3 times with his coastal forts. Is it due to the max round per battle being set at 3?
that's all for now
just tried the scenario
works well though a couple of questions:
- i have lost quite a few planes as allied, has the anti aircraft fire from groundtroops been improved in toaw III? the planes were all on combat support and i even lost some high altitude planes. Most of my losses occured against ground troops which didn't have any aa guns inside its equipement.
- the german could bomb my ships like 3 times with his coastal forts. Is it due to the max round per battle being set at 3?
that's all for now
yes and yes :D
just tried the scenario
works well though a couple of questions:
- i have lost quite a few planes as allied, has the anti aircraft fire from groundtroops been improved in toaw III? the planes were all on combat support and i even lost some high altitude planes. Most of my losses occured against ground troops which didn't have any aa guns inside its equipement.
- the german could bomb my ships like 3 times with his coastal forts. Is it due to the max round per battle being set at 3?
that's all for now
Yeah, AA fire has actually been put too high in TOAW III, but they are working on dropping it to more realistic levels in the the near future.
That's okay. All of the Allied team members will be using this opening turn for their games...:devious:
Oops...nevermind. This was from a game where the MRPB was set to three, but I hadn't yet made the other changes. Oh well. It can still serve as a reminder of what's possible to accomplish on Turn One with the Allies, and what kind of disaster can face the Germans from the start.
I was going to open this up and post a screen shot for those that don't yet have TOAW III, but I didn't want to give any intel away, so maybe you could post a screen-shot (if you aren't worried about intel leaking out) or post a screen-shot with whatever intel you don't want getting out erased...
I was going to open this up and post a screen shot for those that don't yet have TOAW III, but I didn't want to give any intel away, so maybe you could post a screen-shot (if you aren't worried about intel leaking out) or post a screen-shot with whatever intel you don't want getting out erased...
I'm not worried about it. Go ahead and post it. Anyone who is interested could just as easily download the files, open them and watch the replay from the German side. Or, they can see the end of turn file from the Allied side.
Yeah, AA fire has actually been put too high in TOAW III, but they are working on dropping it to more realistic levels in the the near future.
We'll be releasing another "beta" patch in the next few days. I would suggest that all players download and play with that one, when it is released.
We'll be releasing another "beta" patch in the next few days. I would suggest that all players download and play with that one, when it is released.
Excellent.
Now, the first, and most obvious thing you'll notice s the complete lack of German units. Jam not only destroyed the units defending the beaches, but he has pushed back any that remain to a place where retaking the Allied supply points will be nearly impossible for the German player.
Perhaps the second thing is the bridges he's secured. All of the green arrows point to bridge over a super river that he has captured. Now super rivers certainly aren't impossible to get over with Engineers, but capturing an intact bridge makes life a lot easier, and makes an Allied advance that much quicker.
The most important bridge he captured, arguably, was Pegasus Bridge. He's now got a supply route to the UK 6th Ariborne divisionon the other side of the Orne River. He's also sent a Battalion of the 27th Arm Bde to assist the UK 6th Airborne.
You'll notice that he has the 192nd PzGren Regt., of the 21st Panzer Division, in a pretty pickle, faced with destruction against the Orne river, nearly surrounded.
Further, you'll notice that almost all of his Canadian and British troops in and east of Caen are dug in. This is important because the 21st Panzer is lurking around Caen and a counter-attack form this tough german unit can be expected.
On the other side of the coin, you'll see that off of Utah beach he's captured two crossings over the Merderet River, allowing for good supply to his 82nd Ariborne Division.
You'll also notice the crossings made by the 101st Airborne. The two north of Carentan will significantly assist his advance, as he'll be able to up his supply by capturing Carentan quicker.
Maybe Jam could add to this...His strategy, and goals...timetable, etc.
It's a rather large image, so I've provided a link to go see it, rather than pasting it in as I would for an AAR...
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/1483/twoweeksinnormandy1944mrpb33on.jpg
General Staff
05 Jul 06, 20:43
Maybe Jam could add to this...His strategy, and goals...timetable, etc.
Holy s...s...smokes. I've seen this done at the western end before but never like this around Caen. Though it's been a while. Thanks for the map- I'd forgotten how truly terrifying opening a German turn 1 can be.
As Germans the first thing I'd say is the only thing you really have on your side is time. 12 turns of a rollercoaster to hang on by your fingernails and try to keep the Allies away from your major VP locations (read the briefing carefully for the impact also of the asterisked locations like St Lo, Cherbourg etc...). Forget about hurling the Allies back into the sea.
As to opponent strategy, believe me, it's to win, by taking the VP locations necessary and as quickly as possible. I'm not sure he's going to enlighten us any further other than this PsyOps operation to try to frighten us by telegraphing more intentions other than bounding inland ASAP. And right now he's probably working on incorporating items in the new patch to disadvantage us like a reduction in AA effectiveness. ;)
One other item. We'll eventually maybe need 2 threads (Axis and Allies) as we had for Wintergewitter 42 with access only by players on that side.
One other item. We'll eventually maybe need 2 threads (Axis and Allies) as we had for Wintergewitter 42 with access only by players on that side.
That is in the works.
Security access is likely to be applied in the next couple days, (I asked CyberRanger to apply it July 8 or afterwards).
When looking at the Axis OOB reinforcement schedule, it is easy to conclude why the British and Canadians historically were moving so slow and why the Americans were able to bust out so easily.
Of course. As the Germans, the main idea is to keep them form heading east, towards your homeland. Hence they had a very strong east side.
I remember in one PBEM of 2innorm i re-took Pegasus bridge with a Panzer battalion of the 21st Panzer that held out for the duration of the game. But that was mere luck.
Though Jamiam's 'Ghengkhis Khan' opening is very impressive.
Dicke Bertha
06 Jul 06, 12:08
Dang. The Germans are ... gone. Nothing, no nuclei to rebuild new lines around. The British and Canadians must have been able to split the map and thus the Germans in two, in one or two more turns. Game over..
Wir kapitulieren nie! ;) Don't give up hope too soon. Due to the new reorganisation rules the allied forces may partially be unable to move further inland immediatly. This could be our chance. Could.
Dang. The Germans are ... gone. Nothing, no nuclei to rebuild new lines around. The British and Canadians must have been able to split the map and thus the Germans in two, in one or two more turns. Game over..
That is probably a correct assumption.
General Staff
06 Jul 06, 12:18
Dang. The Germans are ... gone. Nothing, no nuclei to rebuild new lines around. The British and Canadians must have been able to split the map and thus the Germans in two, in one or two more turns. Game over..
I saw JAMiAM's 'first strike' but can anyone put up a map for those who don't have TOAWIII yet for the Germans going into their turn 1 after something like this?
Problem is with 'Fog of War' on it's impossible to see exact state of German line.
I saw JAMiAM's 'first strike' but can anyone put up a map for those who don't have TOAWIII yet for the Germans going into their turn 1 after something like this?
Problem is with 'Fog of War' on it's impossible to see exact state of German line.
Second that.
Dicke Bertha
06 Jul 06, 12:30
Working from memory, I don't recall much German stationed inland between Caen and St Lo, and reinforcements for the Germans trickle in the first few turns... could be wrong of course. Allied recon level is also high (?) so...
I can just put up a ascreener of the German turn...
General Staff
06 Jul 06, 12:43
The good news- I think?- for everyone is that this is one of the most played scenarios (you can read popular too) and generally regarded as one of the most balanced. So maybe an excellent opportunity for any number of players to take TOAWIII out for a test drive. Also short, so you can get put out of your misery quickly if necessary (12 Turns).
So even if the Axis get stomped to dust, it will help the general direction of TOAWIII in that respect going forward. As you can see, I'm already desperately looking for ways out...;)
We'll hold them back as best we can, oh fearless leader. :p
John Osborne
06 Jul 06, 13:07
As you can see, I'm already desperately looking for ways out...;)
What do you mean "Looking for a way out". We're going to stump them, grind them, push them back into the sea :laugh: Well thats the thought at first :nuts:
John
A lot does depend on the Allied first turn...posting my T1 for Two Weeks in Allied. Had a slow start in a few areas for not getting some over-runs, but would guess something like this is probably more typical.
With Axis T1, the bulk of armored reserves are not present - just 21st Panzer, but when they start arriving - they do so steadily 12th SS Panzer, Panzer Lehr (T2+); a number of flak units with 88's that can bolster infantry; Tigers from I SS PzK; 17th SS PzG; a buttload of rocket artillery and 2nd Panzer, along with more infantry. In a lot of cases, they are coming in near Caen or south of Carentan, so they won't have far to go to the front and will be reasonably fresh.
So, the Axis should not get too discouraged - 4 strong armored formations, more SS PzG's, the FJ's with rocket artillery and 88's...
Granted, the Allies have a lot of EVERYTHING...including some weaknesses.
Getting recon units onto the hilltops is good for intelligence - a tip for both sides.
John Osborne
06 Jul 06, 15:44
As I'm talking about blowing up bridges in TOAW III on another thread. What is the house rules for that and is there any house rules that we or I may have missed during the discussion on using 2ndWiN scenario?
John
As I'm talking about blowing up bridges in TOAW III on another thread. What is the house rules for that and is there any house rules that we or I may have missed during the discussion on using 2ndWiN scenario?
John
No there is no house rule in this scenario. It is more the exception that there are house rules regarding bridge blowing. There's only one scenario i know for sure about a house rule regarding bridge blowing, A bridge too far 44 by Erik Nygaard, maybe also in Plan Martin. But these honour rules only affect land units.
General Staff
06 Jul 06, 16:14
As I'm talking about blowing up bridges in TOAW III on another thread. What is the house rules for that and is there any house rules that we or I may have missed during the discussion on using 2ndWiN scenario?
No. I think all bridges are game here. If it's not mentioned in the Scenario Briefing by the author and unless both parties agree on a house rule, that's always the case.
John Osborne
06 Jul 06, 16:25
If its not mention in the scenario, shouldn't there be house rules for this workshop or we're just learning the fine art of tactics. I don't want my counterpart get upset if I do something that he didn't know about :D You know I'm learning (let me reprise that) getting my butt kicked from my teacher "Siberian Heat"
John
General Staff
06 Jul 06, 16:58
If its not mention in the scenario, shouldn't there be house rules for this workshop or we're just learning the fine art of tactics. I don't want my counterpart get upset if I do something that he didn't know about :D You know I'm learning (let me reprise that) getting my butt kicked from my teacher "Siberian Heat".
Well, I think you're a very lucky man in that you've got IMO a brilliant opponent- c.f. http://www.warfarehq.com/index.php?page=after_action_reports/toaw_aar/two_weeks_bk_aar.shtml though he'll probably cry foul and disown it. Since I assume he's winning just ask and he's usually happy to help in my experience.
In the tournament I think the rules are just Advanced Game rules (Fog of War etc...), bearing in mind whatever is in the scenario briefing by the designer. And there are a few things here like the asterisked VP locations that need consideration.
Otherwise once we get separate threads per side just ask if you're not sure and someone I'm sure will answer.
Hope this helps.
Dicke Bertha
06 Jul 06, 18:13
I can just put up a ascreener of the German turn...
Yes please!:smoke:
John Osborne
06 Jul 06, 21:05
I don't think he will mine :D
Should I keep asking questions or should I wait until my group is formed and then I can ask the questions to them in the proper thread on how to Play TOAW III during the Workshop? I'm with the Axis group.
John
I don't think he will mine :D
Should I keep asking questions or should I wait until my group is formed and then I can ask the questions to them in the proper thread on how to Play TOAW III during the Workshop? I'm with the Axis group.
John
No problem with that, John. Just ask, i think that more scenario specific questions will follow in the axis thread, ask anything you need to know, and once started you can also ask questions on specific tactics etc. (with screenies and so on..). OB West (General staff) and your fellow commanders will help you, don't be afraid.
Stefan
Dicke Bertha
08 Jul 06, 06:29
Has anyone tried Jam's modified scenario yet? Specifically I am interested in the max 3 rounds per turn feature, how does it work and play out?
General Staff
08 Jul 06, 07:40
Should I keep asking questions or should I wait until my group is formed and then I can ask the questions to them in the proper thread on how to Play TOAW III during the Workshop?
If it's specific to 2WIN and the tourney, I'd post there. If it's more general as to mechanics or strategy and tactics I'd post in the main forum, if only because other players not in the tourney can benefit from the Q and any replies.
Hope this helps.
I sincerly apologize for going away without posting the german screener...My bad. I went away to see family for a few days, and then saw Dicke asking for the screener and here it is.
http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=twoweeksinnormandy1944mrpb3ger.jpg
EDIT: As you can see, the only real resistance left at this point is the ?6th FJ Regt? around Carentan, and the 21st Panzer Division around Caen.
Dicke Bertha
10 Jul 06, 00:29
No probs! :) Thanks!
That is one open center...
No probs! :) Thanks!
That is one open center...
Yeah, and Cherbourg is doomed, and...well, yeah, the Germans are doomed.
Whats up with the air force? Uber elite? My troops rout when they see an allied plane?
Has anyone tried Jam's modified scenario yet? Specifically I am interested in the max 3 rounds per turn feature, how does it work and play out?
I can't seem to get more than one round playing either side.....
Joss
General Staff
10 Jul 06, 09:21
I can't seem to get more than one round playing either side...
Read up on combat rounds and how they work. It's basically a 10% system. If you're throwing a unit into an attack that's only got 1 of 10 MPs remaining when everyone else is going in to the same attack with 9 out of 10 MPs remaining, your turn will end (there are some exceptions- shock). It's a difficult concept to grasp at first.
Check http://www.warfarehq.com/index.php?page=articles/toaw_articles/toaw_combat_phases.shtml
It's TOAW but probably still valid. Steve Knowlton's article I think also discusses.
Hope it helps.
Make sure to download the revision of the scenario by JAMIAM - half-way down on the first page of this thread. It adjusts maximum rounds of battle per turn to three and that should also alleviate, to a certain extent, run-on attack turn-burn.
It is also very important to observe Formation Coordination Support Levels, will cover this at greater length separately. The battalions of each regiment will cooperate together with each other and divisional support elements (armor, artillery, engineers, recon, etc.) but will coordinate at a penalty when making attacks with battalions from other regiments. Penalties include reduced effectiveness and greater potential for turn-burn.
The Allied Air Force is at 40% proficiency (for all units, maybe a few minor exceptions).
Currently, units suffering "retreats" either from combat or interdiction, run a higher than typical risk of being routed or sent into reorg, which may be addressed in the near future, something I'm waiting to hear more about before getting into the full swing of things. This would happen in earlier versions, too - just in TOAW III, it seems somewhat more pronounced and I would suspect owing to unit quality checks.
In the Axis forum we will discuss countermeasures for interdiction.
BTW...can someone on the Axis team try to access the Allied Forum and vice versa - want to check to see if the restricted access has been implemented. No major hurry either way, except that some discussions can begin sooner if they are....
Dabbs,
I am Axis, and I just checked into the Axis sub-forum, and cannot check into the Allied sub-forum. Seems the secrecy has been implemented.
Dabbs,
I am Axis, and I just checked into the Axis sub-forum, and cannot check into the Allied sub-forum. Seems the secrecy has been implemented.
I don't even see a allied subforum! :surprise: Is this intended?
John Osborne
10 Jul 06, 11:09
What Sub-Forumed? I'm able to open both Axis and Allied threads. never mined not enough coffee this morning.
John
I don't even see a allied subforum! :surprise: Is this intended?
Yes, it's one of our Axis strategies. Knocking out our opponents' communications. :laugh:
John, I trust by the coffee statement that you found it. :)
John Osborne
10 Jul 06, 12:58
John, I trust by the coffee statement that you found it. :)
Yes I see it, I'm still recovering from the last battle with Siberian Heat. I'm getting ready for the next battle with SH, I'm glutting for punishment :OHNO:
John
Thank you very much Cyber Ranger for your support - you got it set up all fancy-like, looks great and we should be good to go.
For roll-call, each player should sign into their respective team forums. We'll give this a few days to make sure everyone's on board and work out contingencies where necessary.
Thanks Veers, Telumar and John for providing a check for me.
viridomaros
11 Jul 06, 06:56
Has anyone tried Jam's modified scenario yet? Specifically I am interested in the max 3 rounds per turn feature, how does it work and play out?
to clarify the situation, i made the same mistake myself. At first i thought the max number of rounds per turn was something to limit somewhat initiative to avoid players who master the game engine to take too much advantage of this.
but after having played the revised scenario and having read carefully what jamiam had written, it's in fact 3 rounds per battle which is very different than 3 rounds per turn. In practice it means you'll have at least 3 rounds per turn since any battle you're fighting won't last more than 3 rounds out of 10.
this means in 2winnorm the german can fire 3 times at the allied ships with their coastal batteries so eliminate those is now much more a priority than it was before. the allied can now safely attack the small german units holding the bridges on the Merderet river without having to fear to see your turn ending because of your paratroopers fighting for 8 rounds without being able to defeat the 4 german squads.
All in all a nice improvement
Dicke Bertha
11 Jul 06, 12:11
Hey thanks Pierre for the correction, that is indeed a very important distinction!
Anyway, I seem to remember reading about the designers being able to set the turn-burn-bias in any direction (?). I can think of some scenarios where it could actually be beneficial to reduce the number of rounds available... or have it vary during a scenario... or be event-driven, or supply driven, or... but that's another discussion, and possibly another TOAW edition.
Hey thanks Pierre for the correction, that is indeed a very important distinction!
Anyway, I seem to remember reading about the designers being able to set the turn-burn-bias in any direction (?). I can think of some scenarios where it could actually be beneficial to reduce the number of rounds available... or have it vary during a scenario... or be event-driven, or supply driven, or... but that's another discussion, and possibly another TOAW edition.Probably in a wishlist. As it stands now in TOAW III, the Maximum Rounds Per Battle feature (MRPB, yet another cool acronym :D) is set for both forces. I agree it'd be great to have the ability to differentiate its application between forces - as you said, maybe later down the road...
I have a very small request to make and it does not affect gameplay at all.
In future versions of the scenario, I would like to see the force name for the Germans changed.
Instead of "German Army" the force should be named "Wehrmacht."
Just nitpickin'
:)
viridomaros
31 Jul 06, 05:13
I have a very small request to make and it does not affect gameplay at all.
In future versions of the scenario, I would like to see the force name for the Germans changed.
Instead of "German Army" the force should be named "Wehrmacht."
Just nitpickin'
:)
not quite right, iirc there are falschirmjaegers units belonging to the lutwaffe.
not quite right, iirc there are falschirmjaegers units belonging to the lutwaffe. As far as I remember, die Luftwaffe (and hence the Fallschirmjäger) was part of the Wehrmacht (Armed Forces), as were das Heer (Army) and die Kriegsmarine (Navy).
What about Heeresgruppe B or OB West?
What about Heeresgruppe B or OB West?
While you're at it, why not properly rename all German units on the map? '456 Mot Arty Bn' does indeed look very un-German... :D
Two Weeks in Normandy wasn't developed by anyone participating, it was just selected as a good scenario for new players.
viridomaros
31 Jul 06, 11:59
As far as I remember, die Luftwaffe (and hence the Fallschirmjäger) was part of the Wehrmacht (Armed Forces), as were das Heer (Army) and die Kriegsmarine (Navy).
i'm guilty confused the heer and the wermacht :D
While you're at it, why not properly rename all German units on the map? '456 Mot Arty Bn' does indeed look very un-German... :D
Could be 465.Art Bn (mot). Maybe i'll do it once my game arrives, if there is request, though i never bothered about the english naming of the units. Also the Battalions should have roman letters, I/25.SS PzG for example.
Anyone up for translating the unit names into Korean in Norm's Korea 50-51?:laugh:
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