View Full Version : Who qualifies as a "Newbie?"
Questions for you all. :hmmm:
What in your opinion qualifies someone as a "Newbie / Inexperienced" player? :popc1:
How many games/years played vs. the A.I. before you are not a one?
How many games vs. a human opponent before you're not one?
How many ladder games (or any) can you play & still be one?
Does "your" win/loss record make any difference? :whlchr:
When did you feel you were no longer a "newbie?" :nofear:
How many games did it take?
And for anyone who thinks they are one- why? :sneak:
Guess what? :rolleyes:
Coming this summer: a newbie's/inexperienced player "event." :bite:
Pass the word! :broccoli:
Good questions Kerry. Some noobs are stronger than others, or stronger than some vets. And then you have neo-noobs; vets from elsewhere who are simply new here. :surprise:
I'll have to give these some consideration and get back to you.
Poor Old Spike
25 Jun 06, 23:19
There are no good or bad CM players, just experienced and inexperienced :)
The more you play, the more experience you get, I've played 57 ladder games so far this year plus another dozen fun games..
Gaining experience is a natural progression through phases -
1 -When I first began playing cmbb 3 years ago I was regularly whupped by the AI for a month or so
2 - Then I began regularly whupping the AI
3 - Then I kept cranking up the handicap level to give the AI more help and still regularly whupped it.
4 - Then I began fun pbem games against humans and won about half the time, but was soon winning most of the time
5 - Finally about 4 months after getting the game I decided to take the plunge into ladder play and joined Rugged Defense, but my first few games were a disaster because I was pussyfooting around too much, so I swore from then on I'd be the hunter not the hunted and I topped the ladder within 3 months.
6 - Later I joined the French Appui-Feu ladder and topped that too, then I joined the German WPC ladder and topped that as well..
Now (400 ladder games later) I've got my eye on Spanish and Polish ladders ;)
There are no good or bad CM players, just experienced and inexperienced :)
The more you play, the more experience you get, I've played 57 ladder games so far this year plus another dozen fun games..
Gaining experience is a natural progression through phases -
1 -When I first began playing cmbb 3 years ago I was regularly whupped by the AI for a month or so
2 - Then I began regularly whupping the AI
3 - Then I kept cranking up the handicap level to give the AI more help and still regularly whupped it.
4 - Then I began fun pbem games against humans and won about half the time, but was soon winning most of the time
5 - Finally about 4 months after getting the game I decided to take the plunge into ladder play and joined Rugged Defense, but my first few games were a disaster because I was pussyfooting around too much, so I swore from then on I'd be the hunter not the hunted and I topped the ladder within 3 months.
6 - Later I joined the French Appui-Feu ladder and topped that too, then I joined the German WPC ladder and topped that as well..
Now (400 ladder games later) I've got my eye on Spanish and Polish ladders ;)
Are you stuck on your self?:laugh: :smoke:
Nemesis Lead
26 Jun 06, 02:05
It is funny actually. I don't think "experience" correlates with "skill" as much as people think.
I think everyone differs greatly in terms of:
1) How seriously they take CM gaming and how much time they spend thinking during a game.
2) How fast they learn (especially from defeats).
3) How good an understanding of real life tactics and military history they have.
4) How good an understanding of the CM game they have.
Because of this, it is hard to define a newb by his experience level. I have seen guys with more than 100 multi-player games who are pretty doggone bad. I have also seen guys who have played 5 multi-player games who will give anyone a run for their money because they are fully engaged, learn from their mistakes, and have a good understanding of WW2 and real life tactics.
Having said all of this....I think that Kerry has to ignore everything I just said and draw some clear entrance criteria. If I were pressed, I would say a newb is someone with fewer than 35 TOTAL multi-player games. By total multi-player games, I mean SZO and non-SZO, ladder and non-ladder.
Strange.....I think I qualify for this tourney! Sign me up!:blab:
How about - anyone who classes themselves as a Newbie ?
...and results in the proposed Tourney would clearly show who is and isn't...lol.
Before even my first game v a human five years ago I would never have said I was newbie - and I know players with 100+ games who are defintely newbies - for example, buying Crusaders against Panzer IIIs in CMAK and getting whupped, or not knowing how important LOS is for arty strikes in BB and AK...and...and...
In their "heart" every single player knows whether they are a newbie or not :)
mangus2000
26 Jun 06, 05:49
I have been on this site for about a year reported around 16 games still consider myself a Newb.
It depends on how you develop with the game, i'm still learning new stuff all the time and still trying to test out different ideas to get my own style of play (does bad count as a style?)
With regards to having a Newb tourney, I think that the number of reported games should be used as the rule of thumb, you will just have to accept that there will be Neo Newbs and players from other sites taking part. It would be far to difficult to vet each and every applicant properly. Would 20 or less reported games be considered as Newb? I'm inclined to think so.
Rather then the term Newbie for this event you should go by the person's win % percentage. If you are trying to address the player lower on the ladder. In fact a tourney that pits people of like % against each other can give the low and middle and the high % fair and challeging games...... Kerry thta's just an idea.;) :smoke:
I am sure everyone that reads the next thing will agree with it in principle.:nervous: THE NEXT THING! Everyone feels like a newbie when you get you Arse handed to you by a better player and if you win against someone you feel more professional.( not like a newbie.):smoke:
The percentage is were people play on average... some get better as time goes IE: Full Monty and other get worst IE: Mangus.;) :smoke:
Nemesis Lead
26 Jun 06, 10:27
Would 20 or less reported games be considered as Newb? I'm inclined to think so.
I have only 20 games reported! Sign me up!:laugh:
Whatever multi-player game limit you set, it should include ALL the multiplayer games a person has played in ALL CMAK, CMBO, & CMBB. Hence, I think the honor system is the only way to go.
Rather then the term Newbie for this event you should go by the person's win % percentage. If you are trying to address the player lower on the ladder. In fact a tourney that pits people of like % against each other can give the low and middle and the high % fair and challeging games...... Kerry thta's just an idea.
Good point, but I think a newb tourney is different from a "low win % tourney." Some of the guys with low win percentages on this ladder are now quite good (they lost a lot at first and learned and now are vets). Also--a brand new player like Mt. Carmel Hill (3 wins, 0 losses) might get excluded from the tourney because his win percentage is 100%.
I have had CMBO and CMBB each for over a year or two. Still regularly get my butt handed to me by the AI, for which reason I have not made the plunge into PBEM. Not that I wouldn't prefer playing against a human, but I plainly suck.
My military experience with tactics has never progressed much further than stumbling around in the dark, and digging holes in seemingly random locations.:laugh:
So I still classify myself as a n00b. This game is to me like golf is to some guys. I suck at it, but enjoy playing regardless. Serously, I have a severe "available time" handicap which limits the amount of time to invest in my computer wargaming.
Poor Old Spike
26 Jun 06, 13:48
We all make mistakes during play, so a good definition of a noob is somebody who makes more than experienced players..
Here's a prize boo-boo I made yesterday -
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sucker.jpg
PS Tactical note - I haven't pushed my infantry to the front edge of the woods in case his T-34 and gosh knows what else decides to shell the woods, so I've left most dispersed back deep in the trees where they can barbecue in peace.
If Russki inf try to run into the woods my PzIII's will scythe them down, thats what I positioned them there for ;)
In the old days when Warfare HQ was still young. Rooster from CA was in charge of the CMBO (that's all there was then) tournaments. He actually had a specific standard with regard to who was eligible for the Warfare HQ CMBO newbie tournament. I recall it was a good standard, but I'll be darned if I recall what it was. In that ancient day, both KG Koz and I were fully qualified as CM newbies.
My view is that if you played only a limited number of games against another human, then you should qualify as a newbie for tournament purposes. It does not matter, if they were reported on this or any other ladder. The number of games you have played against the the AI also does not matter. Playing against another human is an entirely different ball of wax. That said, something in the range of 5 to 10 games max against another person in any and all of the CM games is the range where newbies might reasonably be found. In fact I lean to the low side of that range.
I would add that even if you believe that you suck, even against the AI, sign up for the tournament. You may surprise yourself. But more important, I guarantee that you will learn a great deal and become a better CM player because you anted up. You might even have more than a little fun!
Poor Old Spike
26 Jun 06, 14:07
KG JAG quote - I would add that even if you believe that you suck, even against the AI, sign up for the tournament. You may surprise yourself
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Good point, we find we automatically raise our game in ladders and tourneys.
In fact I usually play badly in non-ladder games because I can't motivate myself without that competitive edge..
KG JAG quote - I would add that even if you believe that you suck, even against the AI, sign up for the tournament. You may surprise yourself
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Good point, we find we automatically raise our game in ladders and tourneys.
In fact I usually play badly in non-ladder games because I can't motivate myself without that competitive edge..
POS, my point was that you play an entirely different CM game when you play against another human instead of the AI.
With regard to Tournaments--I agree (with few exceptions).
However, ladders can bring out the worst in many people, as has been discussed elsewhere on this and other forums. It doesn't have to be that way, but often is the case.
Poor Old Spike
26 Jun 06, 16:19
KG Jag quote - However, ladders can bring out the worst in many people, as has been discussed elsewhere on this and other forums
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NO NO NO NO NO :)
I've heard that argument before and I totally reject it based on my experience of 400 games in 3 different ladders :)
It might help if you explained what you mean by "the worst"?
I've only seen honour and decency in the ladders, nothing else.
For example call me soft-hearted but I regularly refuse to register a win if the guy I just beat was a noob, ask a couple of guys in this forum to confirm it ;)
In fact I sometimes even refuse to register if a QB map favoured me more than my opponent, even if they weren't noobs..
And I quit the Rugged Defense club completely when I was ladder leader there because I felt the rules system favoured me too much..
A true noob tourney might be based on WARS points. Say 4900 and below? A "new" vet could exclude himself if he felt he was too strong.
KG_RangerBooBoo
26 Jun 06, 18:47
I rather like the idea of looking at ladder rank rather then experience when putting a tourney together. You've got your Top 16 type tourney, why not a bottom 32 or some such.
A person's experience playing PBEM and TCP/IP may not be reflected on the SZO (or perhaps on any) ladder. For example all the KG guys play many games against one another that are in-house (we don't have a ladder) and are never reported on any ladder. In such cases many players may be technical newbies, meeting all ladder oriented requirements, but in fact are experienced veteran players.
That leaves "trust but verify" as the best method. Each person who wants to participate states how many CM games that he has played against other humans (anywhere, any place and at any time). That information is checked against the SZO ladder for (partial) accuracy.
KGPanzerschrecK
26 Jun 06, 22:05
Agreed Bill. I for one have never been apart of any CM ladders, until a few days ago when i just joined WARS, and i have never reported a single game in my life on any CM ladders. But on the other hand i have been playing CMBO, CMBB & CMAK for quite a while against my clanmates. While unlike a few people who go out of their way to boast about how wonderful they are at these games on this forum, im a bit on the modest side and ill let my opponents tell you what kind of player i am once i free up some slots and play some games with some of you guys. To be quite honest i really dont think im all that good of a player anyway so i dont think any of you have anything to worry about anyway. But i am not a newbie by any stretch of the imagination.
Also--a brand new player like Mt. Carmel Hill (3 wins, 0 losses) might get excluded from the tourney because his win percentage is 100%.
I understand your point but he is not new, he has played other places and if my memory serves me right a friend of yours. He plays the same type of games and most likely taught by you the master of A/D games.
My point is he plays at 100% because he is 100% type player. He may clean most of the other newbies.:smoke:
I rather like the idea of looking at ladder rank rather then experience when putting a tourney together. You've got your Top 16 type tourney, why not a bottom 32 or some such.
This also reflects what i have been saying, about the 5 type tourney.:nuts:
KG Jag quote - However, ladders can bring out the worst in many people, as has been discussed elsewhere on this and other forums
-----------------------------------------------------
NO NO NO NO NO :)
I've heard that argument before and I totally reject it based on my experience of 400 games in 3 different ladders :)
It might help if you explained what you mean by "the worst"?
I've only seen honour and decency in the ladders, nothing else.
For example call me soft-hearted but I regularly refuse to register a win if the guy I just beat was a noob, ask a couple of guys in this forum to confirm it ;)
In fact I sometimes even refuse to register if a QB map favoured me more than my opponent, even if they weren't noobs..
And I quit the Rugged Defense club completely when I was ladder leader there because I felt the rules system favoured me too much..
You are not all that bad after all.:laugh: Your really a softy down deep.
Before "Seeing the Elephant -a Newbie's Event" gets out of hand:
It will be a short deal consisting of 4 scenarios possibily played 2 at a time = only 2 rounds.
It has been specifically designed as a learning / teaching event for inexperienced players only. Tutors will be provided that the players can email for advice on game play / tactics (not how to play "this" scenario).
Experienced players may find them limited in scope (but still a challenge vs skill equals) as each one was designed to teach specific tactical skills.
It has been specifically designed as a learning / teaching event for inexperienced players only. Tutors will be provided that the players can email for advice on game play / tactics (not how to play "this" scenario).
Experienced players may find them limited in scope as each one was designed to teach specific tactical skills.
Great idea sign up mangus he needs all the help he can get.;) :smoke:
Nemesis Lead
26 Jun 06, 23:40
I understand your point but he is not new, he has played other places and if my memory serves me right a friend of yours. He plays the same type of games and most likely taught by you the master of A/D games.
My point is he plays at 100% because he is 100% type player. He may clean most of the other newbies.:smoke:
Wrong--Mt. Carmel Hill is BRAND new to CM. Those first 3 games were his first 3 CM multiplayer games (other than 2 non-rated TCP/IP games vs. me). He is a high school buddy of mine now living in Indiana. I mentioned CM to him and now he is hooked.
However, he has a military and wargaming background and is fully engaged (he calls me a few times a week to talk shop). Ergo, he has done well so far.
He plays A/Ds because I advised him that A/Ds are (in my opinion) the best QB games for building CM skill.
Please note that the Moderators/Organizers of this event will be the final authority on who is or is not allowed in the event.
Please note that the Moderators/Organizers of this event will be the final authority on who is or is not allowed in the event.
So are we just spitting in the wind here?;) :smoke:
So are we just spitting in the wind here?;)
Not at all! :halo:
I posed the question because I need to know what others think a newbie/inexperienced player is. I could have just picked arbitrary numbers & said this = a newbie: less than 10 ladder games, less than 35% winning record, less than 4 months playing CM, etc, etc.
However by getting feedback I can formulate a list from the consensus of what equals a newbie/inexperienced player for this event. However as mentioned above a player who is "new" but winning all their games probably wouldn't be called inexperienced especially by their opponents! (Thus the MOD's have final say in who plays etc.)
But first and foremost this event is for inexperienced players who would like some help with CM and want to take advantage of having an "available" & experienced player who has play-tested / played each scenario as a tutor. Plus they get to play against someone of equal skill. (Thus the need to know, "what is a newbie").
How "thrilling" would it be to play vs. a completely new CM player & then proudly proclaim to the entire forum, "I won a Total VICTORY!" if you're already beating experienced CM players? :( I guess your rep would take a few hits at the least... :blab:
But why anyone who is not inexperienced would want to be in the event is beyond me. Those who are and want some help/advice in some well designed scenarios to learn & test yourself in should consider it.
And that leads me to this: it's probably a given that most "new" CM players are not regulars at any CM forum yet, they're still battling with the A.I. So please pass the the word.
I may try and talk my son (the only 1 of 5 that has ever played CM) to join. So far all he's done is "put in the tanks so we can shoot each other to pieces in under 10 turns," stuff. :laugh: :clown: (Yea, you bet I beat his sorry little Tigers everywhere behind!!!) :devious: (See, see experienced vs. inexperienced!!!)
Although his last comments were, "you're STILL play-testing that same scenario after how many weeks?!" :( He did however recognize I was kicking my own offensive butt as the defenders. :crosseye:
You see I was wondering what you were thinking and there you have it. A little side comment by some one then you prattle on like an old lady.:laugh: :smoke:
The initial requirements for the "Seeing the Elephant" Event. (these are subject to change)
1. You consider yourself to be new to CM (CMBB will be the version played).
2. You consider yourself to be inexperienced at playing CM.
3. If inexperienced you'd like some “instruction” on how to play a better game.
4. You have played 5 or less “Ladder” games anywhere.
5. Your only opponent up to now has been the A.I.
As you can see these are not based just on "numbers" but how a player views their CM skill & ability. It's also the reason that Event Organizers have the final say on which "potential" participants are actually in the event.
I did have to select a cutoff point & of the bottom 20 on the ladder 5 or few games had been played, plus theres a gap above the 5 game point.
All 4 games will count for the SZO CM Ladder so "new" players can get the feel of a little "pressure" & play at the top of their game. It will also encourage them to take advantage of having a tutor if they have a tactical or game play question.
Such as: why won't my mortar rounds fall where I aim them?
Answers:
1. Your mortar must have LOS on the target.
2. To use the "indirect-fire" method you need to be in command range of a HQ unit that has LOS on the target & doesn't get pinned, routed or moves during the turn.
3. If the experience level is Conscript or Green then they are just a lousy crew.
If one looks at the "recent" bottom 20 on the ladder & the # of games played the average comes out to @40. Hard to call anyone with that many ladder games a newbie. But against a "new player" he would have a tremendous advantage in my opinion.
However, the idea of a "Bottom-Feeder" Tournament is a really good one, so that will come about probably this fall. (4 games: 2 matches in BB & 2 in AK)
The thread "Seeing the Elephant" announcing the event was posted so we can get an idea of how many "qualified" players are out there interested in this type of an event.
If it turns out few are interested it might just become the "Bottom-Feeders" Tourney!
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