$50 is it worth it? [Archive]

Herman Hum

20 Jun 06, 03:45

So far I have passed on Harpoon III and was thinking of buying this one, but it seems there are still a of lot of issues, and things like logistics, ground height, weapons height restrictions, ships sailing on land, and mines still don't work (never really did in Harpoon II Admrial's Edition).

I don't care about multi-player and wonder is the game worth the $50 price tag ?

If the price was $39.00 the same as TOAW III, I wouldn't have a problem, I don't like the trend of charging a new game price for older games with the same old issues. I saw a list of changes comming in version 3.8, but no one will say if it will be a free upgrade. :upset I don't want to pay full price and buy another version a year or so from now. :OHNO:
First off, allow me to just clarify the bugs you mentioned:

Aircraft logistics work. Underway Replenishment for ships does not.

Ships sail over land only for pre-existing scens. If this problem cropped up in a 3.6.3 scen, it would re-appear in the ANW engine. We've tried to re-create ships moving over land in ANW and have been unsuccessful, thus far. :)

The PlayersDB Mine model is just our attempt to simulate mine warfare. It isn't perfect, but we think that it does a good enough job to include it. We'd rather have [U]real mines.

What do you mean by, "ground height, weapons height restrictions"? What problems are you seeing?

I am of a similar viewpoint. The MP is virtually useless to me. Also, the other new features like VCR, H4 Database and (6) scenarios, New Database Editor(s), and a new scenario editor leave me feeling, "So what?". I didn't have a need for them in the first place!

The only thing of interest to me is the bug-squashing. And, while they have indeed squashed a great many, others persist.

Your query regarding the future cost of 3.8 has been asked by a few others, too. The answer is that it is too far in the future and it is a Matrix decision. I interpret that as, "Yes, there will be a fee."

Since you are making the leap all the way from H2AE to ANW, it is easier to say that the $50 is worth it, but I think that you will be paying additional 'upgrade' fees in the future, IMO. So, overall, I don't know if you will be happy with the cost. That $50 would be pretty steep for me, too. :cry:

pad152

20 Jun 06, 14:25

"Since you are making the leap all the way from H2AE to ANW, it is easier to say that the $50 is worth it"

Thats the issue, having tried the demo, I really don't see that much of a real difference between Harpoon II, Harpoon II AE, and Harpoon III! The major new features such as VCR and multiplayer I don't care about. What's else is there to justify the full new game price tag!

What do you mean by, "ground height, weapons height restrictions"? What problems are you seeing?

Land height (there isn't any) land mass don't block sensors or weapons.

Some weapons don't seem to have any restrictions to height.

Sunburn

20 Jun 06, 16:07

Land height (there isn't any) land mass don't block sensors or weapons.

Land elevations do exist and they do work, at least in 3.6.x. This is very evident in certain scens like WestPac's "Operation Big Bash", where you can use the Sakhalin mountain range to ambush enemy fighters.

Any chance you might be confusing it with HC, where the lands are indeed flat.

Boats

20 Jun 06, 16:40

Is it just me, or am I the only Harpoon player in the world who would have gladly paid $50 to get FREAKIN' MULT-PLAYER!. Get a life, guys, I paid $50 for Harpoon when it was still a DOS game!

Boats

Herman Hum

20 Jun 06, 17:01

"Since you are making the leap all the way from H2AE to ANW, it is easier to say that the $50 is worth it" (HH)

Thats the issue, having tried the demo, I really don't see that much of a real difference between Harpoon II, Harpoon II AE, and Harpoon III! The major new features such as VCR and multiplayer I don't care about. What's else is there to justify the full new game price tag!

Are you referring to the H3 demo? AFAIK, there is no demo available for ANW. If you managed to try out ANW, can you tell me where?

Here are the the issues that have been fixed from H3 to ANW: LINK (=pad152)

The question that you are missing is, "What are the changes between H2AE to H3?" That one, I cannot answer. However, I bet that the answer is likely very long, too. :) In fact, I never was able to run any of the three H2 editions I bought until I found out about DOSBox!

Perhaps someone else can shed some light on it. I can only answer part of the puzzle.

What do you mean by, "ground height, weapons height restrictions"? What problems are you seeing? (HH)

Land height (there isn't any) land mass don't block sensors or weapons.

Some weapons don't seem to have any restrictions to height.

Well, since I was the guy who reported that "Radar sees through mountains", I think that I am qualified to answer it. :)

I specifically tested for this problem and found that it is no longer present. (At least in my tests) The 3.6.3 test file showing this is still up and you can confirm my tests, if you like. I used it to see if the problem appeared in ANW and I don't think that it does.

The height restrictions for weapons is a database feature. The various database editors have different philosophies. This number can be changed and, AFAIK, it does work. For example, some editors want you to drop your GBU-12s from 6010m while others say that you can drop them as low as 610m.

If you are seeing a problem, can you be more specific about the database and the weapon in particular? I'd be happy to run it down with you.

TonyE

20 Jun 06, 18:06

$50 is it worth it?

I'm an old time Harpoon player, board game, the original PC version, all of the battlesets, Harpoon for Windows, Harpoon classic, Harpoon II, and then Harpoon II Admrial's Edition. I still have a box full of Harpoon games in my basement.

You have a dandy collection, similar to mine. I don't mean this in a hostile way but owning them all is part of the reason I'm willing to part with another $50. I may play much more HC than H3 but I still like to dig out H3 once a month or so and play part of a scenario. ANW for me is mostly for multiplayer, while you may not be after that feature, multiplayer in and of itself eliminates a lot of the annoying AI behavior and may rekindle your passion.

Herman Hum

20 Jun 06, 18:43

Is it just me, or am I the only Harpoon player in the world who would have gladly paid $50 to get FREAKIN' MULT-PLAYER!. Get a life, guys, I paid $50 for Harpoon when it was still a DOS game!

I guess that this means you've already dropped your $50 for ANW, then, eh?

So, how are you enjoying the experience?

Lots of folks are looking for advice. Enlighten us, please.

Taitennek

21 Jun 06, 06:03

I wish Martix/ANW would reprice this to $39.00 or wait until they have a version with more features, bug fixes, and some sort of graphics update to make the new game price tag seem more reasonable.

Right you are!!! $50,= is a lot of money for a game such as Harpoon.
Lots of Bugs (most important reason NOT to buy ANW/3.7).:nada:

Blackcloud6

21 Jun 06, 07:16

I see there are some third party WWII dtatbases and scenarios for Harpoon III. How are they? Are they cool? I'm primarily a WWII gamer and have yet to find a good WWII computer naval game.

Herman Hum

21 Jun 06, 15:44

I see there are some third party WWII dtatbases and scenarios for Harpoon III. How are they? Are they cool? I'm primarily a WWII gamer and have yet to find a good WWII computer naval game.
You can check out the WW2Db (http://www.harpoonhq.com/harpoon3/scenarios_wwii) created by Tom Herron. It is really intense and has impressed anyone who has looked at it.

You don't even need to have the game in order to examine it under the DB editor. Grab it H3RE Access 2000 Version (http://www.advancedgaming.biz/index.php?cevent=page.view&id=41&sub_id=0&widget_id=1).

Just be aware of the gunnery model currently being used. Firing Arcs (http://www.xtreme-gamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42091) are not restricted.

Boats

21 Jun 06, 16:47

Right you are!!! $50,= is a lot of money for a game such as Harpoon.
Lots of Bugs (most important reason NOT to buy ANW/3.7).:nada:

Franz, a lot of people said that HC2002 was overpriced at $20 per download, and at that time, this was only a very unbugged version of the game. We made the AI meaner, cut down the Phoenix range from 110 miles, things like that. Not a new feature in it at all. We heard the exact same comments, and the game sold quite well. HC2002 Gold, which now had a platform editor, and further bug killing, was more expensive, and it did pretty good too, at $35 for download, and $45 for CD.

I expect that a lot of people will purchase H3 ANW. And they will not begrudge the money they spent either. The same people complaining about the $50 are the same people who will without a bit of hesitation go out and spend the same amount of money on a PS 2 game. WTF, over?

If you don't like the game, fine. If you don't intend to spend the money for it, fine. But why shovel electrons profusely, hammering on it? I know you have your opinion, and you have the right to express it, but podna, I hate to tell you this, your opinion probably smells just as bad as mine;)

Boats

MikMyk

21 Jun 06, 18:10

Firing arcs are restricted but no sense fixing that until ships can't turn instantly. So really two bugs to overcome with this one.

Harpoon has exceeded what I consider 50 bucks worth of fun easily. Thats why I buy the games warts and all.

Herman Hum

21 Jun 06, 20:22

Firing arcs are restricted but no sense fixing that until ships can't turn instantly.
That is incorrect.

Here is a test file showing firing arcs being totally ignored. It is made with the Official DB from AGSI and with the ANW ScenEdit. If anyone wants to see the same problem repeated in Harpoon v3.6.3, I can make up a test scen for it right away, too.

Scully

21 Jun 06, 20:29

I plan on paying the $50...and Boats, it's because of the multiplayer. I get my butt handed to me by the AI...I can't imagine what's going to happen to me against a good human opponent.

MikMyk

21 Jun 06, 21:00

That is incorrect.

Here is a test file showing firing arcs being totally ignored. It is made with the Official DB from AGSI and with the ANW ScenEdit. If anyone wants to see the same problem repeated in Harpoon v3.6.3, I can make up a test scen for it right away, too.

Ooops Typo;) I did mention there are two bugs associated with this one though.
First one is the arcs, second one is the instant turns.

BTW I got this from the programmer of the game:laugh:

jpkoester1

22 Jun 06, 03:04

Just be aware of the gunnery model currently being used. Firing Arcs are not restricted.

I just also wanted to mention the reasons for this:

1. The current maneuver system of H3ANW does not support turn rates. This means that ships turn instantly. This in turn means that if we would restrict firing arcs ships would turn broadside for a fraction of a second and then immediately return to their path of intended motion. If firing arc restrictions were simply activated without any further code changes the behaviour would thus be the same it is now.
2. Because of point 1 the implementation of firing arcs would require the implementation of a manuever model in Harpoon 3 that supports variable turn rates.
3. When 2 was implemented we would require a large upgrade to the AI. If it drives a ship into a tight fjord how is it going to get out with the turn rates. How does the AI best maneuver to uncover it's guns and so on and on and on. (think formations, air combat, etc...)

The huge amount of work that would need to go into this has so far prevented us from doing it. There were simply bigger issues and feature requests that needed to be addressed first and could be tackled much more efficiently.

Cheers,
Jan-Paul Köster
AGSI Tech Support

Pirimeister

22 Jun 06, 08:19

That makes good sense. Thanks for the explanation JP!

SgtRock

23 Jun 06, 18:49

First off, allow me to just clarify the bugs you mentioned:

Aircraft logistics work. Underway Replenishment for ships does not.

Ships sail over land only for pre-existing scens. If this problem cropped up in a 3.6.3 scen, it would re-appear in the ANW engine. We've tried to re-create ships moving over land in ANW and have been unsuccessful, thus far. :)

The PlayersDB Mine model is just our attempt to simulate mine warfare. It isn't perfect, but we think that it does a good enough job to include it. We'd rather have [U]real mines.

What do you mean by, "ground height, weapons height restrictions"? What problems are you seeing?

I am of a similar viewpoint. The MP is virtually useless to me. Also, the other new features like VCR, H4 Database and (6) scenarios, New Database Editor(s), and a new scenario editor leave me feeling, "So what?". I didn't have a need for them in the first place!

The only thing of interest to me is the bug-squashing. And, while they have indeed squashed a great many, others persist.

Your query regarding the future cost of 3.8 has been asked by a few others, too. The answer is that it is too far in the future and it is a Matrix decision. I interpret that as, "Yes, there will be a fee."

Since you are making the leap all the way from H2AE to ANW, it is easier to say that the $50 is worth it, but I think that you will be paying additional 'upgrade' fees in the future, IMO. So, overall, I don't know if you will be happy with the cost. That $50 would be pretty steep for me, too. :cry:

Hi Herman

I have no problem with you not enjoying our game but please do not assume :( anything like we are going to charge a fee. Since you have PM me more once for other reasons I see no reason to guess on this.

To Everyone else we are planning major things for Harpoon3 ANW game and we thank everyone for there support. I understand this has been a long road for some but the game is truly getting the attention it needs and deserves from AGS. Don Gilman and company are fully commited to this project and until you hear otherwise. We expect to have another free update soon. More updates are coming soon and wil be free as well.

David Heath
Matrix Games

Herman Hum

23 Jun 06, 19:05

I have no problem with you not enjoying our game but please do not assume :( anything like we are going to charge a fee. Since you have PM me more once for other reasons I see no reason to guess on this.

You are correct regarding:

Your query regarding the future cost of 3.8 has been asked by a few others, too. The answer is that it is too far in the future and it is a Matrix decision. I interpret that as, "Yes, there will be a fee."

If it wasn't clear on the original message, I'll make it explicitly clear, now.

This is pure speculation on my part and I would never try to 'speak' for Matrix or anyone else.

I made that statement so that, in the absence of concrete data, folks could 'prepare for the worse'. After all, there are many, many of us who bought H3.6.3 with the expectation that many future upgrades [a.k.a. bug-squashing] would be free. I was one of them. I think that there was much surprise by these licensees to learn that we would be asked to pay for these current bug repairs.

Has a firm decision been reached, then? Will Matrix provide 3.8 and 3.9 as free upgrades?

Boats

23 Jun 06, 20:56

"We expect to have another free update soon. More updates are coming soon and wil be free as well. "

What part of "free" didn't you understand, or are you trying to do a bit of muckraking? And yes, before you pick the nit, if an update comes out, it will be a FREE VERSION.

Jeez, Herman, enough already.

Boats

Herman Hum

23 Jun 06, 21:19

From my understanding,

The Maintainence upgrades (v3.7.1 and v3.7.2) will be free.

However, the v3.8 and v3.9 are unknown qualities (as stated on the Matrix forum).

It would be great if Matrix could officially confirm or deny whether or not the v3.8 and v3.9 would entail additional fees.

SgtRock

23 Jun 06, 21:50

We will take each update as it comes. For the time being we are making free updates and if that should change we let everyone know.

David

Herman Hum

01 Jul 06, 16:28

This weekend (until July 3), HarpGamer.com has set up a server for ANW players to try out MP. This has been generously offered by the HG owners so that your own computer does not need to be taxed with both playing and hosting the game.

Take a look at HarpGamer (http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?showtopic=794&view=getnewpost)

You can also find opponents on the HarpGamer forum (http://www.harpgamer.com/HARP_chat.php).

Hope to see you there.

SZO file archives (http://www.xtreme-gamer.com/forums/downloads.php?do=cat&id=30) - Home of the Harpoon3 PlayersDB

http://img271.echo.cx/img271/7972/badger0ma.th.jpgFilesOfScenShare (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/FilesOfScenShare/) http://www.taitennek.nl/site-pics/website-logo.gif (http://www.taitennek.nl)

http://img108.exs.cx/img108/5898/hgbanner33xr.jpgHarpGamer.com (http://www.harpgamer.com) - Home of the HCDB.

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1730/harppageslogo2nu.jpg (http://www.harpoonpages.com/)

Blackcloud6

01 Jul 06, 16:35

HarpGamer.com has set up a server for ANW players to try out MP.

Tried this yesterday palying a quick scenario with someone I just met on the harpgamer chat. Real neat and fun. Recommend it.

Herman Hum

01 Jul 06, 22:12

Tried this yesterday palying a quick scenario with someone I just met on the harpgamer chat. Real neat and fun. Recommend it.
I definitely concur. I managed to meet Blackcloud, Destruya, Reckall, and Taitennek on the server and we managed to get some games in even though I am only on a dial-up connection and operating with 384mB RAM instead of the High-Speed connection and 512mB RAM recommended by AGSI.

It ran slowly even on the small scens, but it did run and it does show the challenges of a human opponent instead of the computer. Tony said that he'll try to keep it up this weekend. Unfortunately, if the server goes down, you have to contact him to re-set it. The best time appears to be tomorrow or Monday afternoons [EST] to find someone. A few of the newer players intend to get together at that time. Of course, you can always arrange a time with someone and just show up to use it, too. :D

danrh

01 Jul 06, 23:53

Good to see folks getting into MP. Don't forget that if you are having problems with the dedicated server and Tony is out of comms for some reason then a player can host as well as play. Certainly recommen it for a setup like Herman's for instance but a lot of gamers seem to have systems I can only dream about. Have fun.

Daniel

ETF

02 Jul 06, 16:17

I plan on paying the $50...and Boats, it's because of the multiplayer. I get my butt handed to me by the AI...I can't imagine what's going to happen to me against a good human opponent.

You can actually get MP to work?
I have been pulling my hair out for the last few weeks!! :mad:

Herman Hum

02 Jul 06, 16:25

Take a look at HarpGamer (http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?showtopic=794&view=getnewpost)

You can also find opponents on the HarpGamer forum (http://www.harpgamer.com/HARP_chat.php).

Yes, it works. We are using it RIGHT now!

Do you have IRC chat? MSN?

Visit the sites listed and join us on the server. We can talk you through it.

Herman Hum

03 Jul 06, 15:51

A bunch more games got played, this afternoon.

Anyone interested can still show up and find someone interested in getting down to the nitty-gritty. :smoke:

Herman Hum

04 Jul 06, 02:21

Just finished 7 games with Evaamo on the HarpGamer server. We had a blast playing all evening.

Many thanks to Tony for the use of his server and I hope that we might do it again in the future. Looking forward to meeting many more folks to play ANW.

Blackcloud6

04 Jul 06, 09:15

Just finished 7 games with Evaamo on the HarpGamer server. We had a blast playing all evening.

Great Herman! I know I said I was going to come up online and play but I got the chance to do so FtF ASL gaming with my son and I never pass that up. Hopefully next time I can!

CV32

04 Jul 06, 09:50

That's great, Fred. Hope to see you again soon on HarpGamer. I'm slowly getting up to speed on H3ANW, and will be ready for some multi-player. (If someone can tear me away from Silent Hunter III !). :laugh:

Herman Hum

05 Jul 06, 17:16

Tony's given us a few more days with his server on HarpGamer. Hope to see some new folks on it or on HarpGamer IRC to arrange a game! :smoke:

vyshka

12 Jul 06, 19:52

MP question, how does time compression work or is it disabled?

Herman Hum

12 Jul 06, 20:10

The game chooses the lowest compression choice of all the players.

For example, if you have three players and their selction for TC is:

1:5 sec
1:15
1:30

The game would run at 1:5 second since it is the lowest.

vyshka

12 Jul 06, 20:26

One more MP question, are there chat capabilities?

I haven't splurged on H3ANW yet. I will probably do so by the end of the week unless Distant Guns gets released. Who am I kidding, Distant Guns won't stop me from buying H3ANW.

Choowee

12 Jul 06, 20:29

$50 is worth it just for multiplayer. I played my first game against Herman today and had a blast! It's a whole different game to be sure. Thanks for the game Herman!

Herman Hum

12 Jul 06, 20:47

There is a basic chat function included with ANW. Very simplistic, but functional.

However, I do advise anyone who plays MP to have a backup channel of communication. More than once, we've had a freeze-up / crash and been unable to notify the other guys. The chat window just dies and everyone is sitting around wondering if the other guy is holding the game on Pause. :clown:

Therefore, I recommend that another IRC or MSN channel be run at the same time to prevent this problem.

We've even seen one guy get dropped to the Lobby without anyone noticing. The other guy kept playing in the belief that there was a human opponent on the other end even though he was only playing the AI! :laugh:

Herman Hum

12 Jul 06, 20:53

$50 is worth it just for multiplayer. I played my first game against Herman today and had a blast! It's a whole different game to be sure. Thanks for the game Herman!
Choowee was an excellent opponent. Fifteen minutes of game play and the guy is responding like a real tiger! :eek:

The only reason I got the drop on him was because I'd played it a number of times previously to help new players along. Beware, folks. There's a new Captain afoot and he is particularly cunning......

FastPhil

27 Jul 06, 19:19

ETF

27 Jul 06, 22:35

A bunch more games got played, this afternoon.

Anyone interested can still show up and find someone interested in getting down to the nitty-gritty. :smoke:

Still having troubles. Hmmm you would'nt have a link to IRC chat would you?
I reloaded my machine hoping that would work re. Harpoon but no joy. :upset:

TonyE

27 Jul 06, 22:44

Still having troubles. Hmmm you would'nt have a link to IRC chat would you?
I reloaded my machine hoping that would work re. Harpoon but no joy. :upset:

You can try the #HarpGamer IRC on the NewNet network, http://www.harpgamer.com/HARP_chat.php

Also PHP based chat at http://www.harpgamer.com/chat/phpMyChat.php3

In another 20 hours there will be more of us around there but you can stop by anytime and see if someone is handy (it helps to type something in case we fell asleep on our keyboards).

Eugene

02 Aug 06, 18:24

Hi Herman and guys -very glad MP is up and running for Harpoon. I saw this comment:

"However, I do advise anyone who plays MP to have a backup channel of communication. More than once, we've had a freeze-up / crash and been unable to notify the other guys. The chat window just dies and everyone is sitting around wondering if the other guy is holding the game on Pause.

Therefore, I recommend that another IRC or MSN channel be run at the same time to prevent this problem. "

Don't you also use voice comms? Teamspeak, Ventrilo, etc. are free and take very little bandwidth. Makes a world of difference in MP in other sims. But you probably know that and perhaps there are reasons not to use voice in Harpoon.

Have to say that I still don't take for granted being able to talk with friends around the world flying, say, in Falcon for hours - for free.

Herman Hum

02 Aug 06, 18:37

Don't you also use voice comms? Teamspeak, Ventrilo, etc. are free and take very little bandwidth. Makes a world of difference in MP in other sims. But you probably know that and perhaps there are reasons not to use voice in Harpoon.

Have to say that I still don't take for granted being able to talk with friends around the world flying, say, in Falcon for hours - for free.
There aren't any voice comms in the game itself. All you get is a little chat window.

As a backup system, any type of comms will do. mIRC, MSN, Teamspeak, Ventrilo, etc,... even e-mail will do (as long as you monitor it). It is only there for backup in case something wonky happens with the game. i.e. one player might somehow be booted out and left in the lobby. :D I don't play any MP games except ANW so I haven't tried any of the voice comm systems mentioned.

Glad to see you join up, Eugene! I hope that we can get a game together, soon. Love to go up against a Falcon driver. :smoke:

Eugene

03 Aug 06, 14:37

Thanks, Herman - good to hear from you.

Re chat windows, generally in other sims I don't use them, other than to confirm connectivity - since whoever is playing is always on voice comms (not in-game tech, but the Big Gorillas in the area, TeamSpeak or Ventrilo). I'm sure this is just a matter of what one is used to. But I have to say, it's hard to imagine not using voice once you have the (simple and free!) capability.

Re Falcon drivers versus Harpoon Commanders: It might be true that a Falcon driver could fly rings around you and then hang on your six at will...BUT you Harpoon Commanders have *squadrons* of fighters, not to mention the experience of planning and plotting the strategies and actions of entire CBGs. My money is on the 'pooner... :hail:

Now, someone from the TacOps community, once aware of weps & sensor capabilities, might be more challenging!

Stalintc

04 Aug 06, 09:48

Just to chime in on the original poster. This is my first Harpoon game and I think it is worth the money, I will buy the next installment if there is one. This series needs all the support it can get. :D

Just my 2 cents.

blackdeath

04 Aug 06, 17:54

I bought this game directly from the publisher before matrix released it and the update cost is 35 dollars....is it worth the 35 dollars? Or am I better off investing the money in another kick ass game....? Will there be any other updates to my version (bought April 2006)...

Herman Hum

04 Aug 06, 18:23

That's a tough question.

One maintenance update (3.7.1) is in the process of being released. After that, there is one more scheduled (3.7.2).

Then the next release is 3.8. No decision has been made by Matrix if this will be a paid upgrade. You can infer whatever you like from that.

It's a shame that you got it just before ANW was released.

IMO, ANW fixes a number of bugs, adds a few of its own, and allows for Multi-player capability. That may or may not be sufficient for you to drop another $35 on the game.

The guys who have it seem to be enjoying it (especially the MP ability). :cool:

blackdeath

04 Aug 06, 18:51

aaggghhhh, the upgrade period ended 2 days ago....dammit.

Now i am pretty sure that I will not pay another 5 dollars for a game that is only 4 months old.....that sucks

Eugene

04 Aug 06, 19:14

Herman, I never heard of a "paid upgrade" in any other game. Of course expansion disks are common, which you are probably familiar with. Those are generally a new campaign or mission set/geography along with many bug fixes and new features from whatever patch the game is up to at the release date of the expansion disk. The patches and feature adds themselves are free for all players as downloads.

Is the company meaning that they will release an expansion of Harpoon, for sale? Surely not simply for fixes and so forth? I probably am missing the history on this idea, so forgive me. Perhaps if they are offering a new set of features for literally two or three dollars, like the role-playing guys at Bethesda (generally scorned little features) or Bioware (a new adventure set within the purchased game) have begun doing, that might fly.

I guess a small group of sim enthusiasts have to have some way to pay for their programming time - maybe that is the price of being fans of a very small niche?

Herman Hum

04 Aug 06, 20:00

Start reading from this message and you can decide for yourself:

Is it worth $50? (http://www.xtreme-gamer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=540727#post540727)

Jeff Gilbert

13 Aug 06, 13:29

I guess a small group of sim enthusiasts have to have some way to pay for their programming time - maybe that is the price of being fans of a very small niche?

I hope they have not "niched" themselves out of the market.

I know that the main reason I have not gone to 3.7 is that playing on a Mac is no longer supported. In the past, I purchased two copies, one each for my Mac & Windows boxes.

I will probably purchase 3.7 after a few more updates are in place but, not quite yet.

Jeff Gilbert

13 Aug 06, 13:51

I've just got to ask, and I am not trying to be rude or point any fingers so please don't take this wrong.

How could Harpoon 3.7 ANW have so many reported bugs?
Most seem to be carried over from 3.6.3 and 3.7 gives me multi-player.
Is that it or am I missing something?

Please don't flame me, I am genuinely curious as I do intend to buy 3.7 in the near future.

Boats

13 Aug 06, 14:55

Jeff, first, thank you for your service.

Second, H3 ANW is not completely "new" code. Neither is Harpoon Classic Commanders addition. Both versions are working on top of code that is nearly a decade old. Many, many things were fixed, improved on, or added completely new, most notably, multi-player. Alas, there are some bugs (ok, more than "some") still extant. For the Harpoon purists, these bugs are anethema. They expect the game to be flawless. Obviously, they have never spent many, many hours staring at a monitor, eating cold pizza and guzzling warm Pepsi:D . What all that means, is that choices, hard choices had to be made when tasking programmers on what to focus on. Jeff, having spent a lot of time hanging around the Harpoon forums and mailing lists for a lot of years, I'll tell you that pre-H3 ANW, all of them were lusting for MP. MP hasn't been seen since around '96 or so, and even then, with a tame version of Classic. MP was the primary focus of programming resources, with everything else behind it. And something to remember: One of AGSIs goals is to market the game to national armed forces (already done with the Australian MoD). MP ability goes a long way to sell this.

Will AGSI/Matrix work hard to remove bugs? You damn betcha they will. Will they give loyal customers a price break on future releases? I suspect, but do not know for a fact, that they will. AGSI found out that price breaks are cost effective to grow a customer base. But, there is a limit can't be crossed...the game has to show a profit. If you want your Harpoon to get better and better, then you have to understand it's not a not-for-profit thing.

Will you support the future of the greatest Naval simulation ever crafted? Only you know that. Is the future of Harpoon in your hands as much as AGSI and Matrix? You bet it is.

Byron Audler,
moderator, Harpoon Users League List

And yes, Herman, I don't play H3...but this does not prevent me from commenting.

Jeff Gilbert

13 Aug 06, 15:13

Boats ... thanks for the reply.

I do understand that building on top of old code can definately have some unintended consiquesnces [sp]. Most of those are usually unpleasant and I am sure the developers are loosing hair daily over it.

I guess my main issue is with the price vs value [obviously an individual/personal decision]. I'm looking at a multi-player game with a 10+ year old interface integrated into it and an existing bug list longer than my arm. All at a "new" game price.

I am sure I to purcahse 3.7 in the future. As MP is not where I am currently at with Harpoon, I will probably wait for the fix list to grow shorter and then jump in. 'till then, I will continue to read the forums and stick with my 3.6.3

Herman Hum

13 Aug 06, 17:38

How could Harpoon 3.7 ANW have so many reported bugs?
Most seem to be carried over from 3.6.3 and 3.7 gives me multi-player.
Is that it or am I missing something.
No, you are seeing it correctly. Just to clarify a bit, some carried over from H2 and some got created with 3.7.0 while they were stamping out other bugs. :D

Now, how could it be released and have so many problems reported afterwards? Well, the truth is that many of the bugs were reported prior to release.

During the Beta testing phase, it was made perfectly clear by AGSI that AGSI, and ONLY AGSI, would decide, "What to Fix and When to Fix It." Of course, this has always been the case and has never been in dispute. I simply said that I would report any and all bugs encountered. Big or small, I would report them all. That is what is happening.

AGSI decided the point at which the game was ready for release. Their reasons (Staff, resources, time,...) are their own. The fact that known bugs remained in the code was part of that decision, but it was theirs to make.

Now that the game is released, the public can decide if the level of bugginess is acceptable for purchase. After all, you are purchasing a commercial product at a commercial price ($50). You can expect commercial quality.

MikMyk

14 Aug 06, 20:58

I think Byron's a bit closer to reality IMHO. I found alot of those bugs and worked with AGSI a couple years.

Frankly Herman got such an off reputation that he managed to make the ignore list of many parties involved (mine included). So it wasn't like the bugs he was posting (a continues to) aren't real and what he's doing isn't helpful. Its just acting like a total obsessed weirdo has caused folks to overlook the good stuff. I mean even in this string he's promoting the game then slamming it...what's he really trying to say...hehe

In terms of Harpoon development. Ask AGSI and follow what they are doing and saying. Some of this speculation is just downright bizarre or in most cases....self serving:smoke: These guys are pretty nice and generally do answer questions. Its been a real shame as to how they've been portrayed. Unfortunately given customer-vendor relationships they've got to take it :(

Oh..for what its worth. The cost of the game is easily exceeded by the number of hours of fun you'll get out of it. I've bought different versions a number of times and its been worth it each time..warts and all.

Pirimeister

15 Aug 06, 12:06

guzzling warm Pepsi

Well, if this isn't a blantant case of cruel and unusual punishment, then I don't know what might be. Amninsty International should look into this right away and help the Harpoon programmers.:D

Not only are they forced to drink a warm soft-drink, which is bad enough, but the chosen beverage is Pepsi... That's sadistic!:laugh:

You have my sympathy, guys!

Cheers!

Boats

15 Aug 06, 19:25

Pepsi is the traditional refreshment of overworked code warriors in days of yore. Now it's probably some touch-feelee late` kinda stuff. Seriously, I know for a fact, that a lot of midnight oil was burned on HC2002, and I'm very sure the same happened with H3.

Boats

Well, if this isn't a blantant case of cruel and unusual punishment, then I don't know what might be. Amninsty International should look into this right away and help the Harpoon programmers.:D

Not only are they forced to drink a warm soft-drink, which is bad enough, but the chosen beverage is Pepsi... That's sadistic!:laugh:

You have my sympathy, guys!

Cheers!

TonyE

15 Aug 06, 21:58

Those of us who worked on HC Gold are pretty firmly in the Mountain Dew camp, though our average age must be past 30 now so a bit outdated. Woe unto thee who offers Mello Yellow in the place of Mt. Dew!

MikMyk

15 Aug 06, 22:04

Yes..yellow #5. Explains alot;)

Boats

16 Aug 06, 18:42

I was firmly in the Miller Genuine Draft/Tanqueray camp:eek:

Byron

delta2864

07 Oct 06, 17:36

I would have paid fifty just to get to play harpoon2 on a modern machine.
which to tell the truth is pretty much what you are getting.Its not really harpoon3 more like harpoon2.5, but thats enough to get my fifty(or 65 with the digital download)harpoon2 was way ahead of its time,I cant believe it ran at all
on a 486sx with 4 megs of ram.So far I have yet to experiece a crash or nasty bug ,save having some planes disapear for a while(I went into the mission editor and killed every mission ,they reappeared).This stuff is outstanding software,I am glad they kept it alive until the hardware was equal to the program.Now I can just find a server and a opponent.

Herman Hum

08 Oct 06, 05:11

Now I can just find a server and a opponent.

Always happy to oblige a willing opponent. Unfortunately, I cannot provide the server services.

If you are willing and able to act as the server, just name a time and place. :)

Don Maddox

16 Nov 06, 11:17

Stop in the User Reviews section and share your thoughts on Harpoon 3. Your review can be as detailed or as brief as you like.

http://www.xtreme-gamer.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=101

You can also upload other games for review.

Herman Hum

22 Mar 07, 13:59

I quickly scanned the database editor manual for the answer, and didn't see it so I will ask the experts...

An interesting question was raised by Choowee regarding Database editing for Harpoon: ANW. If this capability is a significant factor in deciding on whether or not to purchase this game, it might be important to note that Database Editors are NOT included with the game even though this is explicitly stated on both the CD ROM case and on the Matrix sales site.

http://www.digitalriver.com/dr/v2/ec_Main.Entry17c?SID=45905&SP=10023&CID=0&PID=834987&PN=1&V1=834987&CUR=124&DSP=&PGRP=0&ABCODE=&CACHE_ID=0

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=19089&stc=1&d=1174586955

After purchasing the game, a request for the editor must be made with NO GUARANTEE of approval or acceptance. It might be granted and it might not at the sole discretion of Matrix/AGSI. Purchase/ownership of the game does not guarantee use of a DB editor.

There is a report that the version of the Editor being released with the request form may not be fully functional.

Re: latest post from Don Gilman (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1386056)

Flanker

23 Mar 07, 04:17

Database Editors are freely available to anyone not involved in plagiarising others work. The Players Database has many times been accused of copying content from numerous other databases. AGSI have checked into these accusations and found the Players Database to not be original.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1367885

To suggest this is some failing on the part of AGSI is misleading.

Reckall

23 Mar 07, 08:10

Jeff Gilbert

31 Mar 07, 20:47

Hi All,

Been on the road of late and am only now getting back.
I popped in over at the Matrix site and noticed that the update boards seem to be quiet for over a month now?

Anything new? What build/version are we on ?

Thanks in advance for any replys.

Herman Hum

31 Mar 07, 20:54

The officially released version is still the same: 3.7.0. That is the only version available for sale.

The Beta patch v3.8.0 is currently on Release Candidate 8. As of yet, no official patch has been released.

If you enjoy using experimental Beta Patches, by all means, jump in. If you are awaiting the release of the Official Patch, grab a seat along with the rest of us. :D

ChopperDave

25 Apr 07, 00:49

In Harpoon Admirals Edition there were many features that did not work, even though they were in the instructions and help files. They were thing that were intended for future implementation, but this had never been done. And of course, many of the things that it did do did not work right. This was by far the buggiest game I ever played, and perhaps the buggiest game ever put out on the market. I learned to play in ways avoiding the things that the game did not do correctly, and in ways that avoided many crashes. But still, the game sure was a good one.

Anyway, since my Harpoon AE will not play on Windows XP I finally talked myself into buying a new version. I did some checking on the two versions, HCCE and H3ANW, but could never get too clear on which may be the better version. I leaned toward HCCE and waited for it to come out. It did not and I purchased H3ANW.
I paid $50 for the game, $10 for the CD, and $6 something for shipping. What came on the CD was v.3.7.0.

I did not find, until after I purchased the game, the article on one of the Harpoon sites that recommended not purchasing v3.7 because of the many new bugs in the game. They were right. The new errors made the game almost unplayable. They recommended staying with version 3.6.3 until the new problems are fixed. My guess is that the people doing the programming to fix the many old bugs got very ambitious trying to do a good job, and as often happens in programming, caused new errors. I’m sure it will be fixed eventually.

I installed the Beta v.3.8.0 RC11. Many of the problems were fixed, but other new ones appeared. I suggest you wait until they get finished with 3.8 and see what people have to say about it.

Herman Hum

25 Apr 07, 01:33

In Harpoon Admirals Edition there were many features that did not work, even though they were in the instructions and help files. They were thing that were intended for future implementation, but this had never been done. And of course, many of the things that it did do did not work right. This was by far the buggiest game I ever played, and perhaps the buggiest game ever put out on the market. I learned to play in ways avoiding the things that the game did not do correctly, and in ways that avoided many crashes. But still, the game sure was a good one.

Anyway, since my Harpoon AE will not play on Windows XP I finally talked myself into buying a new version. I did some checking on the two versions, HCCE and H3ANW, but could never get too clear on which may be the better version. I leaned toward HCCE and waited for it to come out. It did not and I purchased H3ANW.
I paid $50 for the game, $10 for the CD, and $6 something for shipping. What came on the CD was v.3.7.0.
Welcome (back) aboard, shipmate. :cool:

I've been having much the same experience as you. Even in MP sessions, we have learned to avoid certain behaviors in order avoid crashes and freeze-ups.

FYI: If you are still interested, HCCE is currently planned for a June 1 release.
Advanced Gaming Systems :: View topic - HCE Update (http://forum.advancedgaming.biz/viewtopic.php?p=4425&sid=86f48dc21e034dc99971930d3ce6ee84#4425)

I am able to run H2AE on XP when I use the DOSBox utility.

Herman Hum

26 Apr 07, 03:33

I installed the Beta v.3.8.0 RC11. Many of the problems were fixed, but other new ones appeared. I suggest you wait until they get finished with 3.8 and see what people have to say about it.

Can you elaborate? We've got a pretty good collection of bugs listed:

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/harpoon/42076-known-harpoon-anw-issues.html

Did you encounter something not previously reported? If so, please feel free to report it on GameSquad and we'll get it updated so that everyone can decide if the game is acceptable to them, personally, or not before they take the plunge and hand over $50. :)

ChopperDave

29 Apr 07, 17:22

Hi Herman

About being more specific. I’m afraid I wasn’t trying to remember all the various problems I was running into and under what conditions. I first started playing using H3ANW v.3.7.0, and then for a short time tried to use v.3.8.0 RC11. Also, I was using DB2000 (hadn’t yet heard about PlayersDB) and playing scenarios made for 3.6.3. Very few scenarios for 3.7 and I don’t think I saw any for 3.8. Most or all of the problems I was having with 3.7 were already documented. I don’t think I saw any list for 3.8 problems. But, since I was playing scenarios for 3.6, there is always the question of whether the problems were game engine related or scenario mismatch related.

Anyway, although I didn’t play 3.8/DB2000 very long, only partially played 2 scenarios because of a new problem, many of the newly introduced problems with 3.7 seemed to have been taken care of.

The main problem I had with 3.8 is that the game tended to partially take over playing itself. Playing a scenario for a couple of hours of game time, I fired some tomahawks. A minute later I noticed some yellow hit flashes on the screen. My tomahawks were being shot down. Either by my own ships or my own aircraft. I had also noticed some vampire warnings in the message window but didn’t see any vampires. I noticed that my ship and aircraft radars had come on by themselves. I believe that the tomahawks, having been fired just a minute earlier, were momentarily lost by my AWACs, reacquired and identified as vampires, and shot down by my tomcats. I turned the ship and aircraft radars off, except AWACs. Aircraft radars would repeatedly come back on and fire at identified enemy aircraft. Sometimes at the very edge of the missile range. By the time the missile got there the enemy had moved out of range.

Another occurrence in the same scenario I believe. I remember less of exactly what occurred here, but the result was that a ship near the back of my task force fired Harpoons that hit my carrier in the middle of the TF. Maybe it went something along these lines. I had fired 3 Harpoons at 3 small enemy boats. One Harpoon each was enough if they hit. A little later, just as the Harpoons had hit, or some missed, I, or the game itself, fired several more Harpoons from a ship at the rear of my TF. Apparently, the small boat they were fired at did get hit and sunk. Guessing now, the Harpoons now had no target and hit my carrier which was directly in their flight path. The carrier not being seriously damaged I played for a little longer, but with the aircraft repeatedly doing things on their own, I quit.

The next scenario I played for a short while with no problems until I tried to fire a Patriot at an aircraft approaching too near my base. The Patriot did not fire. Going to fire another I noticed the battery was short by one missile though none had appeared on screen. I tried firing another. Nothing. I went to a second Patriot battery and fired a missile. Nothing. Going to fire another, this battery was short by one missile and the second missile I fired didn’t do anything either. I went back to the first Patriot battery and it had no missiles showing. It apparently had tried to fire all its missiles at the aircraft. Same thing with the second battery. A few moments later I noticed that my manually placed CAP aircraft radars had come on and one of them had moved and fired on the enemy aircraft. That’s it, I quit.

I have how found PlayersDB and scenarios written for v.3.7. I have reinstalled Harpoon back to 3.7.0. Although I haven’t yet played this very much, it seems to do better with fewer bugs.

By the way, they have done a great job on the PlayersDB. Very few ‘no text available’ entries. They have even given individual descriptions for the variations of similar aircraft instead of the same description for all of the variants.

Herman Hum

29 Apr 07, 17:48

Hi Herman

The main problem I had with 3.8 is that the game tended to partially take over playing itself. Playing a scenario for a couple of hours of game time, I fired some tomahawks. A minute later I noticed some yellow hit flashes on the screen. My tomahawks were being shot down. Either by my own ships or my own aircraft. I had also noticed some vampire warnings in the message window but didn’t see any vampires. I noticed that my ship and aircraft radars had come on by themselves. I believe that the tomahawks, having been fired just a minute earlier, were momentarily lost by my AWACs, reacquired and identified as vampires, and shot down by my tomcats. I turned the ship and aircraft radars off, except AWACs. Aircraft radars would repeatedly come back on and fire at identified enemy aircraft. Sometimes at the very edge of the missile range. By the time the missile got there the enemy had moved out of range.

Another occurrence in the same scenario I believe. I remember less of exactly what occurred here, but the result was that a ship near the back of my task force fired Harpoons that hit my carrier in the middle of the TF. Maybe it went something along these lines. I had fired 3 Harpoons at 3 small enemy boats. One Harpoon each was enough if they hit. A little later, just as the Harpoons had hit, or some missed, I, or the game itself, fired several more Harpoons from a ship at the rear of my TF. Apparently, the small boat they were fired at did get hit and sunk. Guessing now, the Harpoons now had no target and hit my carrier which was directly in their flight path. The carrier not being seriously damaged I played for a little longer, but with the aircraft repeatedly doing things on their own, I quit.

The next scenario I played for a short while with no problems until I tried to fire a Patriot at an aircraft approaching too near my base. The Patriot did not fire. Going to fire another I noticed the battery was short by one missile though none had appeared on screen. I tried firing another. Nothing. I went to a second Patriot battery and fired a missile. Nothing. Going to fire another, this battery was short by one missile and the second missile I fired didn’t do anything either. I went back to the first Patriot battery and it had no missiles showing. It apparently had tried to fire all its missiles at the aircraft. Same thing with the second battery. A few moments later I noticed that my manually placed CAP aircraft radars had come on and one of them had moved and fired on the enemy aircraft. That’s it, I quit.

I have how found PlayersDB and scenarios written for v.3.7. I have reinstalled Harpoon back to 3.7.0. Although I haven’t yet played this very much, it seems to do better with fewer bugs.

By the way, they have done a great job on the PlayersDB. Very few ‘no text available’ entries. They have even given individual descriptions for the variations of similar aircraft instead of the same description for all of the variants.

Are you some kind of sorcerer?! Those are exactly the same things I've been experiencing! :laugh:

The fact that missiles disappear in flight and the AI acts autonomously (even while on the manually controlled "Plotted" mission) has already been reported and documented. It's now up to AGSI if they will change it or not.

The credit for the text entries is due to the phenomenal work done by Frans Koenz, Brad Leyte, and Dave Steinmeyer. They typed their little fingers off.

Herman Hum

13 May 07, 06:47

An interesting question was raised by Choowee regarding Database editing for Harpoon: ANW. If this capability is a significant factor in deciding on whether or not to purchase this game, it might be important to note that Database Editors are NOT included with the game even though this is explicitly stated on both the CD ROM case and on the Matrix sales site.

Matrix Games Online Store: Download or Physical Shipment (http://www.digitalriver.com/dr/v2/ec_Main.Entry17c?SID=45905&SP=10023&CID=0&PID=834987&PN=1&V1=834987&CUR=124&DSP=&PGRP=0&ABCODE=&CACHE_ID=0)

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=19089&stc=1&d=1174586955

After purchasing the game, a request for the editor must be made with NO GUARANTEE of approval or acceptance. It might be granted and it might not at the sole discretion of Matrix/AGSI. Purchase/ownership of the game does not guarantee use of a DB editor.

There is a report that the version of the Editor being released with the request form may not be fully functional.

Re: latest post from Don Gilman (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1386056)

More independent corroboration from Matrix (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1441952):

Guess he should have come here first for answers. :D

The boxed version of the game clearly states that it includes a DB editor but I cannot find a working one anywhere online. I only want to use it for testing of individual platforms for academic research not for producing community scenarios. I cant even download the members 3.8 upgrade as it tells me the page doesnt exist,

Herman Hum

16 May 07, 21:26

The main problem I had with 3.8 is that the game tended to partially take over playing itself. Playing a scenario for a couple of hours of game time, I fired some tomahawks. A minute later I noticed some yellow hit flashes on the screen. My tomahawks were being shot down. Either by my own ships or my own aircraft. I had also noticed some vampire warnings in the message window but didn’t see any vampires. I noticed that my ship and aircraft radars had come on by themselves. I believe that the tomahawks, having been fired just a minute earlier, were momentarily lost by my AWACs, reacquired and identified as vampires, and shot down by my tomcats. I turned the ship and aircraft radars off, except AWACs. Aircraft radars would repeatedly come back on and fire at identified enemy aircraft. Sometimes at the very edge of the missile range. By the time the missile got there the enemy had moved out of range.

Looks like you got your response from the developers on Matrix (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1459366):

Regarding your weapons problem, units that are plotted manually will turn on their radars if a threat is detected via ESM. If you assign units to a mission and set the sensors of that mission ot passive then it will be enforced. The idea around plotted units turning on their sensors is the dictium 'it's better to see something coming than not'.

In short the plotted platforms are practicing due diligence.

You also have to understand the mission set up structure. Patrol missions will ID a target before attacking (just like real life). If it's a total war situtation then you can declare the target hostile and be done with it. Strike missions assume that you want the target dead, otherwise it wouldn't be part of the mission.

If you are trying to micromanage then that's you're right, but that really wasn't what the game was designed to do. The problem is that it's easier for the player to become overloaded if you micromanage everything.

and here (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1459876):

The unfortunate fact of the matter is that we have, and will continue to be, in transition regarding mission behavior until we reach TNH. The ultimate incarnation of our plan is to have the AI create missoins, on it's own, in response to a tactical situtation that it analyzes of it's own accord. Therefore you are going to see a shift in the 3.6 'command style, do this because I say' kind of mission behavior in favor of a more conservative 'preservation of my units is the best method of accomplishing my tasks' sort of mission style. This especially applies to plotted units where it is expected that the user will (depending on the size of the scenario) be overloaded.

The plain facts are that we did not expect, nor wanted to, make everyone happy with the way missions are done in the current incarnation. The game simply isn't meant to be played the way v3.6 was. If we had plotted units keeping their sensors off all the time, we would instead see a complaint about how units are being lost without warning (you'd get even less warning at night, remember that HMS Sheffield had only a few seconds warning of her Exocet). A prudent CO (I've been the XO of many ships) will take every step he deems necessary to protect his ship, his people and accomplish the task given to him.

So, if you want ships to observe a specific sensor setting, put the ship on a mission and set the sensors the way you want it. Plotted missions give the AI more latitude than specific mission types do.

ChopperDave

16 May 07, 21:51

Yea.

I thought I had the matter solved. That this automatic defense was built into the game. I got another reply to turn on weapons tight. I always play with weapons tight, but this post made me think. With this auto-defense behavior there is not much difference between weapons tight and weapons free. What was the point of having a weapons tight setting. That turned me back to thinking maybe it was a bug.

But, back to it's a built-in 'feature' of the game. Undefeatable. Darn.

Herman Hum

16 May 07, 21:58

Exactly. What's the point of the Weapons Tight command, then?

There is no need for 3 choices or anything. Once again, they appear to have decided to change something that was neither broken nor requested by the community-at-large.

What the heck was wrong with just leaving the darned thing as it was? Any player who wanted to surrender his command to the AI could simply hit the "Weapons Free" hotkey and everything would be operating as it does now.

If all you can say is 'darn', then you are definitely a man of quiet reserve. I think that your original assessment of how this makes the game unplayable is much more accurate. :cry:

Herman Hum

17 May 07, 03:45

Matrix (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1351928)
I have repeatedly applied for the Db EDITOR to no avail . I have agreed to all the terms but so far my request have fallen on deaf ears.

It clearly states of the box for the ANW version "database and scenario editors".

The information about creating DB Signatures I have read on other forums and my attempts to use the Reimer Access DB have all failed.

Please can I have the DB editor that I paid for.

Amen, brother. Amen. :cry:

Here it is, again:

After purchasing the game, a request for the editor must be made with NO GUARANTEE of approval or acceptance. It might be granted and it might not at the sole discretion of Matrix/AGSI. Purchase/ownership of the game does not guarantee use of a DB editor.

$55 may be insufficient reason to allow anyone use of a DB editor. :eek:

ChopperDave

17 May 07, 16:27

For many, you are coming in on the middle of a conversation with parts missing. So, below I am adding an edited portion of what I put on a Maxis form. It is in response to a Maxis person replying to my post asking 'How do I turn off the automatic self-defense behavior.'

Ooooookay.... No, I don't want my ships defending themselves. At least not without my permission. And not in the way they are doing so. I’ll try to explain below. And you are correct. I do micromanage the game. I have posted a few times, apparently not here though, that I launch every plane, place every plane, fly every plane, fire every missile, drop every bomb, shoot every torpedo, place every sonobouy, and everything else, by hand. I never use a mission or patrol. The simple fact is that the computer AI does not do half as good a job at this as I can do. And you are correct that this can be a little overwhelming, and tedious, but I much prefer it this way, as opposed to losing many aircraft that I would not otherwise lose. I started a poll on HHQ asking how others play the game and the considerable majority of people seem to play mostly by hand.

Since I have had some difficulty in playing the game, I may not be fully versed in the effects of this self-defense behavior, but this is what I have noticed.

This automatic defensive behavior is less effective, less efficient, wasteful of munitions, and a considerably lesser defense than what I can achieve. And it interferes with me mounting a better defense.

This behavior is less effective than what I can do. If you have, say, a group of 10 missiles coming in at you, right on top of each other, appearing as one missile, my ships will automatically fire at them in a large group of missiles, two outgoing for each incoming, and achieve a hit rate of 4 to 8 strikes. Whereas I, using methods I have learned from experience, can fire only 10 missiles and achieve a hit rate of 6 to 10 on the incoming 10.

This makes the self-defense behavior less efficient and wasteful. In the end, it fires from 1.5 to 3 times as many missiles as I would, to achieve the same effect.

It fires large groups of missiles causing a ship to be ‘engaged’ unnecessarily, and less able to defend against strong threats coming at you. This is the opposite of the intended effect of the defensive behavior.

It fires at threats in an order that I would not do, and from ships that I would not use, leaving others open for attack. Again making it more difficult to defend.

It confuses the screen with large numbers of missiles that are difficult to determine what they are being fired at. This confusion also makes it difficult to determine what has not been fired at. Again making it more difficult to defend.

I have played a scenario where my task force begins very near many enemy units. The enemy began firing at me almost immediately. Ordinarily, this would have been only a moderately difficult situation had it not been for the interference of the automatic defensive behavior. Only through very difficult work and constant checking of what was happening, tediously trying to keep track of things, and some luck, was I able to defend myself without loss. I nearly lost two ships.

I must say that on two occasions the defense has saved a plane for me. But, on several occasions it has made defense of my task force more difficult. I would rather lose a plane or two, than lose any potion of my TF because of interference by the game itself. (That would really be bad. So far it hasn’t happened, though has come close.)

If I may, I would disagree with your opinion of how the game was designed to be played. I have played Harpoon AE for many years and some version before that. It seems to me that the game was designed to be played in a wide variety of ways. From those who wanted to play it using mostly missions and patrols, to those who wanted to do everything by hand, and anything in-between. With this flexibility of game play, Harpoon gained a large and loyal group of followers. Many people, perhaps most, play the game with weapons tight. This automatic defensive behavior comes very close to nullifying the weapons tight setting, and is a major change in the way the game is played. I can think of many-a-time when I have passed up firing on an enemy in order to save my weapons for a more important target, or, to use what I considered a better platform to fire from. This automatic firing of weapons has on a few occasions already, robbed me of my freedom of choice. And I am sure others, with better imaginations, can think of many other situations where they would not want this automatic firing of weapons to occur.

I understand from your post that the game is in transition, and I am quite sure there are many things to consider. And, I understand that not everyone can be pleased. Perhaps not even me. But, I hope you strongly consider the major change in the game when you even partially remove the weapons tight feature. Would it be reasonably easy to implement three settings? Weapons tight, automatic defense, and weapons free?

Even if the auto-defense could do as good a job, or better than I, I am not sure that I would want this. It might be nice to have the three options above and play with auto-defense when things were ‘to large’ to watch over easily, and then switch to weapons tight if things got hectic and I could do a better job. Or, to play with weapons tight, and switch to auto-defense if there were situations where it could be helpful. But if I had to make a choice, I much prefer the weapons tight to the current auto-defense. (Actually, having three choices sounds pretty good.)

I guess I should state here how important I think this matter is. For me, this auto-defense comes very close to making the game unplayable. There are several reasons for this. One is that the auto-defense plays inadequately enough that it will cause me to lose ships through no fault of my own, and causes the defense of my ships to be much more difficult in intense situations. Also, in some situations, it virtually takes over the game and I am reduced to being a spectator watching two computer opponents play against each other. It also in some situations, in small ways, takes away my freedom of choice in how to play the game.

For new Harpoon players, who have not played Harpoon differently, this may not be so bad. But for longtime players, many of us may not find this undefeatable feature enjoyable.

Companies do try to improve their products. Though I don't consider this to be an improvement. Perhaps putting it out in a Beta version is their way of testing how well it works and what people think of it. As far as I can tell, this automatic self-defense behavior has begun with the Beta v.3.8.0.

I don't really feel the need for three settings either. (Weapons tight, self-defense, weapons free) But I would prefer to have three as opposed to losing weapons tight. And there may be some times during the game when this auto-defense could be useful, but only if you can turn it off.